Author Topic: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?  (Read 31111 times)

richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #125 on: January 10, 2007, 07:48:14 AM »
Pretend you are in a casino:  The house takes in dollars, and in return gives you chips of varying denominations.  Inside the casino, you can use the chips to pay for dinner, play the games, get your hair cut, pay for your room, tip, etc, etc, etc.  Now, suppose the house starts letting its employees just take chips without paying for them in dollars, and use them to buy food, show tickets, clothes, etc.  Suppose further, that the casino itself starts paying for things with chips that aren't backed in the casino "bank" with real dollars.  Eventually, someon will go to the "bank" to get dollars for their chips - and there won't be any!  Either people willhave to settle for getting, say 75 cents for a "dollar" chip, or get nothing at all!  And the value of a "dollar" chip will get less and less as more and more unbacked chips are issued - UNLESS the casino not only STOPS issuing unbacked chips, but STARTS paying for the chips at face value in dollars.

Question - if this casino is paying out LESS than a dollar for a "dollar" chip, how much longer will:

...that casino's chips be accepted for payment in lieu of dollars?
...will patrons use that casino, instead of the competition?

Whats the point of all this?

The "Casino" is the government, the "bank" is the Fed, the patrons are you, me, and the world.  The "chips" are Federal Reserve Notes, and the "actual dollars" you can think of as either gold, or the pool of goods and services available in the Gross National Product.  The diminished value of the chips is inflation - most of the "sheeple" don't recognize it as such, because they don't have their nose rubbed in a dollar-for-dollar comparison between the "casino chips" and the "actual dollars" in this case.  While a gross over-simplification of the situation, it is worth noting that Iraq before the war, Iran, Venusuala and increasingly China and Japan are doing business in "Euros" rather than "dollars" - they have chosen to do "business" in another "casino".  The flight has already started, & it will escalate.
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2007, 08:00:06 AM »
If a government:

1. Owes money.  (Our's does).
2. Taxes based on dollar amount for income, business activity, and property.  (Our's does).
3.  Has a graduated system of taxation, where the higher the dollar figure involved, the higher the tax RATE goes.  (Our's does - its called "progressive income tax").
4.  Has signifigant quantities of money used off-shore.  (Our's does: see "petro-dollars", China, Japan,...)

THEN, the temptation to inflate the currency, especially one NOT backed by precious metals, is irresistable, because:

1.  The government gets to pay back its debt with devalued and debasedinflated currency, making it possible to cheat those who hold the debt instruments.
2.  The government gets to rob the off-shore holders of dollars without having to go to the trouble of attacking them over-seas - they just steal some of the value of the dollars they hold by printing more unbacked dollars to chase the same pool of goods and services.
3.  They get to increase tax revenue WITHOUT the political cost of passing tax increases by "inflating" everyone into higher rate tax brackets when their pay is adjusted for the inflation.  Its called "bracket creep".
4.  Without having to actually redeem the money in a fixed commodity, there is no "floor" for the currency.  It can just keep on dropping....

The people who get hurt are:

1.  People on fixed incomes, like retirees.
2.  Holders of instruments of government debt, especially low-interest ones such as so-called "Savings Bonds".
3.  Anyone who holds dollars, either in actuallity or on account.
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #127 on: January 10, 2007, 11:56:39 AM »
Anyone?  Bueller?  Bueller?  Ferris Beuller?
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #128 on: January 11, 2007, 05:17:17 AM »
Of course, there's always private currencies, like the Liberty Dollar.
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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #129 on: January 11, 2007, 09:41:41 AM »
Rich, you're not entirely wrong.  Having no fixed value for currency has its own drawbacks, but a primary currency system based on resources such as precious metals is unworkable in modern society.  Anyone who tells you otherwise would be lying.  The problem is that people have tried for centuries to produce meaningful currency, backing it with everything from cowrie shells to metal to food to land and in each case the end results were disastrous.  The problem is primarily that economies backed by a physical object or substance - while stable - are incapable of growth at an acceptable rate.  Birth rate typically outstrips gold production, for instance, so economies are unable to expand their currency base to absorb new workers, much less new technologies.  Such an economy will prosper while supplies of the backing material are up and falter when they dry up, are even briefly interrupted or cease to expand as quickly as the economy does.  A debt-backed currency - while fickle - is flexible enough to allow for expansion in a way that gold-backed currency is simply incapable of doing.

You mention that concerns about direct exchange rates and about the destruction of currency are immaterial because no gold coin would have a face value equivalent to its actual value.  So what you are actually saying is that $20 face value = $15 worth of gold, right?  Are you aware of a historical system where such a configuration of pre-inflated currency worked without market forces equalizing the face value and gold value?

richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #130 on: January 11, 2007, 12:10:57 PM »
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Are you aware of a historical system where such a configuration of pre-inflated currency worked without market forces equalizing the face value and gold value?

To my knowledge, all governments have eventually yielded to the temptation to debase 9devalue) their currency.  In the days of metal-based currency, this was done by putting less and less precious metal into a "dollar" coin, and mandating that the new coin be traded at its face value the same as the old.  By Gresham's Law, this soon drove all the old coinage out of circulation.  With paper money, this is done by cranking the presses without either a precious metal bakcing or a corresponding increase  in the goods and services.   This, in hte US, has had the effect of taking us off of, in sequence, the gold standard, the de fact silver standard of coinage, the defacto copper standard of coinage, and now, the de facto zinc standard.
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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #131 on: January 11, 2007, 03:30:53 PM »
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Of course we wouldn't have much of an economy left after the first 6 months...
No argument. We've devalued our economy and sold so much of our gold and silver overseas to help balance our trade deficit, the country has almost no concrete wealth left.

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Not to mention 2 or 3 crushing panics or full-blown depressions every decade...

You mean like the Great Depression that was directly caused by the Federal Reserve Act - the Great Depression which was an order of 10 times as severe as any of the cyclical 20-year recessions which were experienced, and are still experienced today? (Nevermind that the dips in the economy prior to fiat currency were caused by wars.)

The only thing which got us out of the Great Depression was the creation of the Military/Industrial Complex (as it's called); the resurgent wars every time the economy is down (interesting parallel, I think) have coincided with the improvement of the economy.

In other words, war is necessary to maintain an inflationary fiat currency so as to stimulate the economy. In a specie economy, war will negatively impact the economy to the exception of plunder and conquest attempts. (Look throughout history - you'll find it's an undeniable fact prior to fiat currency.)

So, in other words, fiat currency is responsible, indirectly, for causing war, decreasing the penalty for loss, and encouraging us to lose.

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #132 on: January 11, 2007, 03:36:27 PM »
Been reading The Report From Iron Mountain, I see.  War is always an economic drain, as it diverts wealth into destructive enterprises. 
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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #133 on: January 11, 2007, 03:56:45 PM »
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Of course we wouldn't have much of an economy left after the first 6 months...
No argument. We've devalued our economy and sold so much of our gold and silver overseas to help balance our trade deficit, the country has almost no concrete wealth left.

Which explains why our economy is the strongest, most dynamic in the world, right?  Um, oops, ahh.


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Not to mention 2 or 3 crushing panics or full-blown depressions every decade...

You mean like the Great Depression that was directly caused by the Federal Reserve Act - the Great Depression which was an order of 10 times as severe as any of the cyclical 20-year recessions which were experienced, and are still experienced today? (Nevermind that the dips in the economy prior to fiat currency were caused by wars.)

That would be the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, right?  I've heard of lag time in an economy but I think 16 years is stretching it a tad.
And the dips caused by wars, you would be speaking about the Panic of 1893, which was caused by the....um...Franco-Prussian War, right?

The only thing which got us out of the Great Depression was the creation of the Military/Industrial Complex (as it's called); the resurgent wars every time the economy is down (interesting parallel, I think) have coincided with the improvement of the economy.

In other words, war is necessary to maintain an inflationary fiat currency so as to stimulate the economy. In a specie economy, war will negatively impact the economy to the exception of plunder and conquest attempts. (Look throughout history - you'll find it's an undeniable fact prior to fiat currency.)

So, in other words, fiat currency is responsible, indirectly, for causing war, decreasing the penalty for loss, and encouraging us to lose.

So the only thing that helped was WW2, right?  Not the fact that business cycles only last so long.  Not any of Roosevelt's programs.  Nothing else contributed.  Aha.
And those resurgent wars every time the economy is down.  You mean like after the recession of 1974-75 when we went to war against...um..uh....gimme a minute here.  And fiat currency causes wars because we know there were no wars prior to its adoption, right?
This is your fourth post on this forum and you haven't impressed me any.
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #134 on: January 11, 2007, 05:36:43 PM »

Which explains why our economy is the strongest, most dynamic in the world, right?  Um, oops, ahh.

Like the NASCAR boys always say, the motor runs its strongest right before it blows,  How was the economy in the Roaring Twenties...right before hte Great Depression?  Before the Dot COm bubble bust?  More to the point, whats going tohappen when OPEC stops holding petrodollars, and China and Japan stop subsidizing out trade and governemnt spending deficits, and simply stop buying treasury bills... much less start redeeming them?  Plus there's that unfunded 59 trillion combo of SOcial Security benefits and deficit comming up.

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That would be the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, right?  I've heard of lag time in an economy but I think 16 years is stretching it a tad.


There was little thing now known as World War One that happened in between.  Hard to have a crash during a war - when everyone is working extra shifts to build arms for the country and belligerents.

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And the dips caused by wars, you would be speaking about the Panic of 1893, which was caused by the....um...Franco-Prussian War, right?

It was caused by a partial failure to stay on the gold standard - the Sherman Silver Purchase Act of 1890, aggrevated by the tariff acts and a few other factors.  Interesingly, the Panic of 1893 was ended by....  (wait for it...)  a return to "sound money"  the Gold Standard - which we stayed on until 1934.


Quote
So the only thing that helped was WW2, right?  Not the fact that business cycles only last so long.  Not any of Roosevelt's programs.  Nothing else contributed.  Aha.


It sertainly WASN'T FDR's programs - they actually prolonged the Depression - when they weren't just punishing FDR's political opponents.   The wrong-headed idea that higher commodity prices were needed really made things worse for everybody. 
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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #135 on: January 11, 2007, 10:55:04 PM »
Rabbi,

Quote
This might be the factual error of the week.  Maybe the month.
Gold mining companies are typically either American or Canadian or South African.  The properties are either in Canada, the US, South Africa, Russia, or Australia.
Lincoln chose silver because he needed to expand the currency and didnt have any more gold supplies.  This was a constant battle with populists demanding silver backing as well.
Kennedy had nothing to do with silver certificates, which started long before he came to office.
But other than that you're right.

Where the properties are located is superfluous. But there is more private gold in european hands than american.

You may have silver certificates confused with federal notes. There is a difference.

Many people do not seem to be aware of it, but J F Kennedy signed an executive order in the month of June 1963 with threatened to cut out a certain private bank's interest in loaning money to the United States government. One of L B Johnson's first acts was to strike this one off. See: EO 11110.

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #136 on: January 12, 2007, 03:47:30 AM »

Which explains why our economy is the strongest, most dynamic in the world, right?  Um, oops, ahh.

Like the NASCAR boys always say, the motor runs its strongest right before it blows,  How was the economy in the Roaring Twenties...right before hte Great Depression?  Before the Dot COm bubble bust?  More to the point, whats going tohappen when OPEC stops holding petrodollars, and China and Japan stop subsidizing out trade and governemnt spending deficits, and simply stop buying treasury bills... much less start redeeming them?  Plus there's that unfunded 59 trillion combo of SOcial Security benefits and deficit comming up.


I love it.  The proof that things are terrible is that they are so good right now.  How can anyone argue with that logic?
There is something called a business cycle.  That means you get periods of growth followed by periods of stagnation or regression.  There is no way to eliminate that short of a command economy.  The best that gov't can do is manage it so things dont get out of hand.  One tool is monetary policy.  Putting that policy in a straightjacket to gold removes its effectiveness.  It is without argument that the periods of depression/recession were far more frequent and far more severe prior to ditching the gold standard than they have been since.
Are there potentially hazardous issues out there?  Of course.  But there always are.  And they tend never to be as bad as imagined.
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #137 on: January 12, 2007, 04:17:08 AM »
[
I love it.  The proof that things are terrible is that they are so good right now.  How can anyone argue with that logic?

AGAIN:  things were REAL good in the Roaring Twenties... but it was a house of cards. The Federal Reserve was trying to stop the flight of gold OUT of Great Britain - the extra liquidity they created in the US to do that ended up buying stocks on the margin - very similar to what happened with Y2K and the dot.com boom/bust.  The extra money, in both cases, ended up in the stock market, as there were insufficient goods and services to absorb it.  This inflated stock prices - when the Fed crammed on the brakes, at the same time the market was trying to correct itself - CRASH!
Today's "prosperity" is bought at the cost of 60 trillion in unfunded obligations soon to come due.  What happens when the government can no longer roll over the debt?

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There is something called a business cycle.  That means you get periods of growth followed by periods of stagnation or regression.  There is no way to eliminate that short of a command economy.  The best that gov't can do is manage it so things dont get out of hand.

Where, pray tell, is the part of the Constitution that says the Government is to "manage" the economy?  Its NOT IN THERE.  The part about gold or silver being the only legal money, however, IS.

 
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One tool is monetary policy.  Putting that policy in a straightjacket to gold removes its effectiveness.  It is without argument that the periods of depression/recession were far more frequent and far more severe prior to ditching the gold standard than they have been since.

If this premise where true, the Great Depression should have quickly ended when FDR took us off of the gold standard.  Why did it drag on?

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #138 on: January 12, 2007, 04:27:29 AM »
People made exactly the same point about the 1980s: the prosperity occurred only because Reagan borrowed so much money.  It wasnt true then and it isnt now.
It is laughable that people try to paint pictures of doom and gloom in what is arguably the best economy in history.  We have historically low unemployment levels, historically low inflation levels, and historically low interest rates all at the same time.  Keynsianism said this couldnt happen.
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #139 on: January 12, 2007, 04:43:55 AM »
People made exactly the same point about the 1980s: the prosperity occurred only because Reagan borrowed so much money.  It wasnt true then and it isnt now.

Perhaps because only CONGRESS, then controlled by the Dems, can borrow money against the credit of the US?

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It is laughable that people try to paint pictures of doom and gloom in what is arguably the best economy in history.  We have historically low unemployment levels, historically low inflation levels, and historically low interest rates all at the same time.  Keynsianism said this couldnt happen.

What you say is true - I'll grant you that.  I have long considered Keynsian theory thouroughly disproven.  However, the current plan is that, if foreign holders of US governemnt debt instruments fail to "roll over" the principle anda ccumlated interest by refusing to continue to buy them, much less try to cash in theones they already have, the Federal Reserve is to be the "buyer of last resort", paying for the securities with money they just crank off of hte presses.  That is a recipe for hyper-inflation in the near future. Add in the fact that the government is trying to devalue the dollar by 30 percent over the next 2 years to give it a "soft landing" - that may NOT in fact be so soft.
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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #140 on: January 12, 2007, 05:50:28 AM »
People made exactly the same point about the 1980s: the prosperity occurred only because Reagan borrowed so much money.  It wasnt true then and it isnt now.

Perhaps because only CONGRESS, then controlled by the Dems, can borrow money against the credit of the US?

Quote
It is laughable that people try to paint pictures of doom and gloom in what is arguably the best economy in history.  We have historically low unemployment levels, historically low inflation levels, and historically low interest rates all at the same time.  Keynsianism said this couldnt happen.

What you say is true - I'll grant you that.  I have long considered Keynsian theory thouroughly disproven.  However, the current plan is that, if foreign holders of US governemnt debt instruments fail to "roll over" the principle anda ccumlated interest by refusing to continue to buy them, much less try to cash in theones they already have, the Federal Reserve is to be the "buyer of last resort", paying for the securities with money they just crank off of hte presses.  That is a recipe for hyper-inflation in the near future. Add in the fact that the government is trying to devalue the dollar by 30 percent over the next 2 years to give it a "soft landing" - that may NOT in fact be so soft.

The President proposes the budget.  Reagan got the budgets he asked for.  Putting it off on Congress is just a cop out.
As for other countries, they will do no such thing.  First, there is no country more powerful or stable than the US.  Our current accounts "deficit" reflects not jobs going overseas but foreigners investing here.  Second, the largest holder of US securities is US citizens or corporations.  Third, countries that are large holders of US instruments, incl dollars, will not want to shoot themselves in the foot by destabilizing the currency they hold.  All the "what if" is just wind and noise.
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #141 on: January 12, 2007, 06:24:39 AM »

The President proposes the budget.

EVERY Reagan budget was dead-on-arrival at a hostile, Democratic controlled Congress.

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Reagan got the budgets he asked for.  Putting it off on Congress is just a cop out.

Felling revisionist today, huh?  The fact is, Tip O'Neill promised spending cuts as part of a budget DEAl, that he then never delivered on, as a deliberate attempt to put the government in a huge deficit.

Fact: Interest rates eased after Reagan slashed tax rates.

The long-bond yield was 13.45 percent in 1981. By the time Reagan left office in 1989, it had dropped to 8.45 percent. Mortgage rates fell from 14.70 percent to 10.13 percent over the same period.

Fact: Inflation cooled.

In the year before Reagan's tax cuts took effect, the annual rate of consumer inflation was 13.5 percent. In the first year of his tax cut, 1981, inflation was 10.3 percent. In the second year, it was 6.2 percent. By the third and final year, 1983, inflation had dropped to 3.2 percent. When Reagan left office, inflation stood at a tame 4.8 percent.

Fact: The economy reached full employment.

Before Reagan's full tax-relief package took effect, the jobless rate hit 9.6 percent. But as tax cuts worked their magic in the economy, unemployment dropped every year after 1983, reaching a low of 5.3 percent in 1989.

Tax cuts benefited minorities, too. The jobless rate among blacks plunged from 19.5 percent in 1983 to 11.4 percent in 1989.

Fact: Government revenues nearly doubled after Reagan's sweeping tax cuts.

Before his 25 percent across-the-board cut in individual income-tax rates went into effect, government receipts from individual income taxes trickled in at $244.1 billion. The year Reagan left office, they totaled $445.7 billion -- an 82 percent jump.

In the tax-hiking, supposedly "fiscally responsible" '90s, by comparison, individual tax receipts rose a comparable 86 percent.

More key, individual tax receipts grew at a compound annual rate of 6.9 percent from 1980 to 1989 (compared with a 7.1 percent rate from 1990 to 1999).

Meanwhile, however, federal outlays grew at a faster 7.6 percent compound annual clip from 1980 to 1989, causing the yawning budget gaps.

Yes, Reagan ballooned defense spending. But Democrats, who controlled appropriations back then, refused to give him the corresponding cuts in other domestic programs -- and instead increased spending.

In fact, the Democrat Congress outspent every one of the nine budgets Reagan proposed, but one.


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As for other countries, they will do no such thing.  First, there is no country more powerful or stable than the US.  Our current accounts "deficit" reflects not jobs going overseas but foreigners investing here.



If there's any investing to be done, it will have to be foreigners.  We don't save any money to invest here.

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Second, the largest holder of US securities is US citizens or corporations. 


Nice way to obscure the fact that almost HALF of the debt is owed to foreigners.  According to Federal Reserve data, $2.2 trillion of this 'public' debt, rising to a new record over 46%, is owed to foreign investors and foreign central banks - - not to U.S. citizens.  The share of foreign holdings zoomed upward since 1992.
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Third, countries that are large holders of US instruments, incl dollars, will not want to shoot themselves in the foot by destabilizing the currency they hold.  All the "what if" is just wind and noise.

...or, they could start a "run on the bank" to avoid being left holding the bag.  Please note the Euro, which started trading at around 84 cents, is now worth over $1.30, as more and more nations do business in it rather than thte dollar.  Perhaps the run has started...
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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #142 on: January 12, 2007, 10:36:45 AM »
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but you failed.

The Euro started trading in the $1.40 range and sank to .89, an all-time low.  It has recovered some since then.  I wouldnt call any of that the start of a "run".  That is just wishful thinking.
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #143 on: January 12, 2007, 05:59:34 PM »
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but you failed.

Well, I'll try harder this time.... grin

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The Euro started trading in the $1.40 range and sank to .89, an all-time low.

The Euro started trading on January 2, 2002 at 1 Euro = $0.90 USD, ( or, to put it another way, 1 dollar bought 1.11 Euros.  On DEcember 4th, 2006, 1 Euro = $1.33 USD, ( or the same dollar that used to buy 1.11 Euros on 1/2/2002 now only buys 0.75 Euro.  The point I'm trying to make is the DOLLAR now buys LESS STUFF, like Euros - and its NOT like the Euro a screaming exampole of sound fiduciary policy and fiscal restraint.  Even against that competition, the dollar lost 11% of its value over just the last year - in part because places that USED to hold dollars, and thereby subsidize our debt, as Fed Reserve notes are debt instruments, are moving AWAY from the dollar to other things, a trend that will accellerate.

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  It has recovered some since then.  I wouldnt call any of that the start of a "run".  That is just wishful thinking.

I would submit that anyone who looks at the future of the "dollar" amd isn't very worried is indulging in "wishful thinking".
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Art Eatman

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #144 on: January 13, 2007, 04:57:11 AM »
What ended the LBJ/Nixon/Carter era inflation was Paul Volcker's raising the fed rate. Smiley  I sold a house in 1981, carrying the paper on an 11% note.

The Euro was introduced at $1.15-ish.  It sank to $0.84 before beginning the current rise.  It has hit $1.34; last I looked (last Monday) it was $1.31.  However, when you look at the relationship between the US $ and other currencies, it's less that the Euro has risen than it is that the US $ has fallen.  Less buying power.  The US $ decline has run approximately 10% per year, these last two or three years.

Me, I see no difference between "decline in buying power" and "inflation".  It's a big hickey in the billfold, whichever words are used. Cheesy

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #145 on: January 13, 2007, 05:48:18 AM »
The run on the dollar is already underway. Even the big institutions are publishing speculations of the euro overtaking the dollar as the number one reserve by about 2020.

That's more than a decade away you say. Well figure this; if the picture looked alittle sharper than that, and the decline of the dollar much sooner - would they come out and say it? Not likely. These are the folks that are going to make sure they are ahead of the curve, and do not intend themselves nor their banking cronies to be caught holding the bags when the music stops.

Iraq .. well ... before it was invaded that is, switched to the euro as it's reserve currency. Iran has switched to the euro. There are a significant number of countries that have switched or are going that way. China is or is on the verge of dumping some huge amounts of dollars and buying euros - China holds twenty percent of the world's currency reserves. It is interesting to note that only about twenty central banks actually publish details of their reserve currency composition.

We can rest assured that regardless of which nations are left holding the bags of worthless paper after a run on the dollar, their citizens will have no recourse on the day, nor for a long time thereafter.

The winners of course get to go into those respective countries and buy property and real estate - tangible assets - for a fraction of their worth.

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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #146 on: January 13, 2007, 01:46:06 PM »
Just found this while looking at that Franklin quote...

No agenda (I'm out of my depth), just thought it interesting

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

Quote
That is simple. In the Colonies we issue our own money. It is called Colonial Scrip. We issue it in proper proportion to the demands of trade and industry to make the products pass easily from the producers to the consumers. In this manner, creating for ourselves our own paper money, we control its purchasing power, and we have no interest to pay no one.
 
Explaining to Bank of England directors his ideas on why the colonies were so prosperous (1763); as quoted in The Money Masters
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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #147 on: January 13, 2007, 02:19:56 PM »



Or the Swiss franc:




Guess what?  Currencies fluctuate against each other.  Using the fluctuations of the Euro as proof that the dollar is losing value is just plain stupid and betrays a gross ignorance of economics and currency exchange.
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #148 on: January 13, 2007, 02:47:33 PM »
Just found this while looking at that Franklin quote...

No agenda (I'm out of my depth), just thought it interesting

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

Quote
That is simple. In the Colonies we issue our own money. It is called Colonial Scrip. We issue it in proper proportion to the demands of trade and industry to make the products pass easily from the producers to the consumers. In this manner, creating for ourselves our own paper money, we control its purchasing power, and we have no interest to pay no one.
 
Explaining to Bank of England directors his ideas on why the colonies were so prosperous (1763); as quoted in The Money Masters


..and part of what spawned the phrase "not worth a Continental", and further spawned provisions in the Constitution to require gold and silver coin as "legal money".
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #149 on: January 13, 2007, 02:52:20 PM »
There is no requirement in the USC that legal tender be gold or silver.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

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