Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?

[Ron]

Like all social systems (or any human invention, for that matter), it has various flaws and weaknesses.  But it's still a good system, and better than the alternatives.  To paraphrase from Churchill, "The Federal Reserve note is the worst kind of money around, except for all the others."

All that makes it work is the nature of our country. People all across the world are betting on the US to remain strong and overcome difficulties as they arise.
It will only work as long as people have confidence in it/us.

[K Frame]

"Perhaps some people have a hard time discerning fecal matter from food. The junk-free bread I have had - be it from a bakery, or a family farm in Ireland where they still cut their crops by hand - it was fine."

Lak,

Excellent way to avoid the concept that food TODAY isn't the same as food in 1905.

The content of food in 1905 wasn't regulated. The chances of you getting substantial contaminants in food in 1905 were expodentially higher then than it is today, anywhere from serious levels of heavy metals to fecal contaminants.

As for that family farm in Ireland where the food was cut by hand...

How do you KNOW that what you ate was truly safe?

Travel with a portable laboratory?

[K Frame]

""The world"? That's a good one..."

Ok, since you think it's such a good one, tell us how many of the world's major economic powers remained pegged to a strict specie monetary system post the Great Depression?

Great Britain, which prior to the Depression was acknowledged to be the world's economic center?

Abandoned the gold standard as untenable in 1931.

France? Also an economic powerhouse? Abandoned the gold standard in 1933, IIRC.

NO other nation of major economic importants maintained the gold standard past 1942, and most smaller nations had totally abandoned it by the late 1940s.

Some vestiges of the gold standard remained under the Bretton-Woods agreement as applied to international trading of gold, but these were terminated in the 1970s.

[K Frame]

You know what really amuses me about all of the arguments for the gold standard?

The people who argue so vociferously for it don't realize something very important...

The only reason gold has "value" is because people agree that it has "value."
 
In that sense, gold is no different from paper money.

In fact, in economic terms, gold as a medium of exchange is no different than so-called fiat money.

In both cases, goods or services are purchased and paid for using a commonly agreed upon medium of exchange.

In order for gold to have value, the purchaser and vendor both must agree that a lump of metal has value.

In order for paper money to have value, the purchaser and vendor both must agree that a slip of paper with printing on it has value.

Conceptually they are no different, but those who advocate a strict gold standard seldom stop to recognize that inconvenient little truth.

[richyoung]

You know what really amuses me about all of the arguments for the gold standard?

The people who argue so vociferously for it don't realize something very important...

The only reason gold has "value" is because people agree that it has "value." 

...unless I'm very far off the mark, that's pretty much the way ANYTHING that "has value" has value.  You've argued the definition.  Now, if you want to talk about INTRINSIC value, gold is used for industrial and medical purposes as well as money, jewelry, and luxury items - many of these uses have no substitue.  Plus the higher the value of it rises the more of it is poduced, as it becomes profitable to dig deeper, recycle , etc.  While not perfect, its still a better money basis than "trust", especially when said trust is placed in foreign bankers (Federal Reserve) and politicians...
 

In that sense, gold is no different from paper money.

But a GOLD BACKED paper currency is a much different beastie than a PAPER backed currency, and much harder to inflate due to political pressure - remember the "free silver" populist movement?  What happens when enough of America votes for politicians who get everone out of their morttgage and credit card paymeents by inflating the currency to near-worthlessness?

In fact, in economic terms, gold as a medium of exchange is no different than so-called fiat money.

Heck of a lot harder to counterfeit gold - even if its the treasury printing press doing the counterfeiting.....

In both cases, goods or services are purchased and paid for using a commonly agreed upon medium of exchange.

Aye, but the rub is what happens when people STOP agreeing...to my knowledge, that has NEVER happened with gold OR a solid currency.  In fact,gold goes UP in times of uncertainty.  For counter exaples involving fiat money, please see: Germany after WWI, Italy whenever, or the fact that the US defacto has inflated itself off of the "zinc" standard, after previously inflating itself off of the copper standard - (tell me again how fiat money is so proof against manipulation?

In order for gold to have value, the purchaser and vendor both must agree that a lump of metal has value.

Scarcity and desirability will do that.  Under what circu,stances do you see gold ever loosing its value?  In fact, YOUR argument was that a gold standard would lead to serious deflation, which is a round about way of saying that gold would gain TOO MUCH value.  Which is it?

In order for paper money to have value, the purchaser and vendor both must agree that a slip of paper with printing on it has value.

And originally, paper money was... receipts for gold on deposit.  Its a lot easier to agree on the slip of paper's value when its BACKED by something of intrinsic value and convertible, isn't it?

Conceptually they are no different, but those who advocate a strict gold standard seldom stop to recognize that inconvenient little truth.

A one ounce "silver dollar" is either worth the face denomination - one dollar, OR, in a worst case scenario, (actually, next to worst - I have seen people drill a hole in a coin to make a washer...) worth the price of an ounce of silver on the international market for jewelry, photography, etc.  It has a floor.  The floor for paper money is the same floor that toilet wipe has - which a lot of fiat money was used for in WWII Europe.  Which "floor" is better? IN fact, there's only two kinds of fiat currency - those that have collapsed - and those that are going to.

[Perd Hapley]

Doesn't gold's value come from it's limited supply?  Like oil, you can "make" more, but only at the cost of finding it and digging it out of the ground. 

[Art Eatman]

We talk about creating wealth, but the rate of creation versus the decline in buying power of that wealth is quite often hidden.   For instance, M3 is estimated to be growing at some ten percent per year, but the economy is growing at only some two percent per year. 

This creates a helluva problem for folks on a fixed income--or a retirement iincome which has a COLA built in.  The COLA is based on official government numbers for inflation; right now these are at best a half of the true rate of inflation in terms of buying power of the dollar.

I remember $35/oz. gold.  Nixon devalued the dollar to $42 before giving up.  Now, gold is around $625.  One of the very few things for which there is world-wide agreement:  Gold is a better measure of value than paper money.

Art

[LAK]

Mike Irwin

Excellent way to avoid the concept that food TODAY isn't the same as food in 1905.
The content of food in 1905 wasn't regulated. The chances of you getting substantial contaminants in food in 1905 were expodentially higher then than it is today, anywhere from serious levels of heavy metals to fecal contaminants.

Avoid? I highlighted the fact.

Contaminants from what and where? Certainly if you camped downstream of a mining operation you might have ingested one of a number of toxic subtsances.

All "regulation" has done is legalized the addition of many more. In the 1960s no one I knew, no one my parents or other others spoke of had "diabetes". I had never even heard of it until the late 1970s. Now, every other person I meet "has diabetes" - or their father, or other person they know.

The number of people with innumerable "syndromes" these days is staggering. There is no pathology, they are just called "syndromes" - and the medical profession peddles a variety of pills, creams and other "helpful" (sometimes) items to these people who get to pay for them and suffer with the "syndrome" for the rest of their lives. Where were all these people 40 years ago? 100 years ago?

I'd never met or heard of anyone who had food poisoning via a self-produced, self-prepared or commercially marketed food item in the 1960s or 70s - and having read a good number of works written in the 19th and early 20th century I do not recall a single instance written of it. Not to say it did not happen, but apparently more people knew about food preparation and storage as a matter of family knowledge 101. Today it is more and more common, and many people in general seem to know little about the subject except the blurbs everytime a string of ecoli cases.

People seem generally unaware that one of the greatest single factors in their general health is what they drink and eat. And what do the majority of people eat? Processed food with liberal does of junk added to it; the regulated variety of course.

As for that family farm in Ireland where the food was cut by hand...
How do you KNOW that what you ate was truly safe?

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. Count the number of people preparing and eating that way in rural Ireland with diabetes, one of a thousand or more "syndromes", cancers in the 1970s with those eating the regulated processed junk in any urban section of the United States today.

If you study the diet and history of cultures in the far east and central asia and other areas where people routinely have lived to a ripe old age it is not because they had a huge bureaucracy testing their food, adding a pile of legalized junk and sticking labels on it. In the same cultures you will see elderly people who are still fighting fit - often doing the kind of work that would have many a western 20-30 year old on their knees. Their children look bright, alert, calm and healthy - as opposed to the number of sickly children I see on a daily basis, many others extremely hyperactive, and those with a number of other maladies.

All regulation seems to have accomplished is createb a huge bureaucracy, disproportinately higher food prices, the addition of alot of junk and a correspondingly high number of sickly people who have been fleeced while they are slowly poisoned.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org     

[LAK]

Mike Irwin

Ok, since you think it's such a good one, tell us how many of the world's major economic powers remained pegged to a strict specie monetary system post the Great Depression?

This apparent popularity? Well, that's easy. Economic slavery may be popular, but hardly beneficial - at least to those paying the bills.

What percentage would a nickel have amounted to of the average household income in 1905? How about $2.50 or $3.00 to todays? How about if this household wants to buy bread sans the regulated slow poison - at say $5.00 or $6.00 a loaf?

How about milk? How much was a gallon of milk in 1905 - and how much is it now out of the average household income?

Great Britain, which prior to the Depression was acknowledged to be the world's economic center?
Abandoned the gold standard as untenable in 1931.
France? Also an economic powerhouse? Abandoned the gold standard in 1933, IIRC.
NO other nation of major economic importants maintained the gold standard past 1942, and most smaller nations had totally abandoned it by the late 1940s.

And which european country had one of the highest per capita standard of living in the 1980s?

You know what really amuses me about all of the arguments for the gold standard?
The people who argue so vociferously for it don't realize something very important...
The only reason gold has "value" is because people agree that it has "value."
In that sense, gold is no different from paper money.

Not quite. Gold, like silver and number of other precious metals, has unique properties - and a level of intrinsic value.

In fact, in economic terms, gold as a medium of exchange is no different than so-called fiat money.
In both cases, goods or services are purchased and paid for using a commonly agreed upon medium of exchange.
In order for gold to have value, the purchaser and vendor both must agree that a lump of metal has value.
In order for paper money to have value, the purchaser and vendor both must agree that a slip of paper with printing on it has value.
Conceptually they are no different, but those who advocate a strict gold standard seldom stop to recognize that inconvenient little truth.

Gold, and silver and a number of other precious metals have intrinsic value. A current Federal Reserve Note is merely a "promise to pay".

So we have millions of people running around obtaining goods and services - and "promising to pay". What happens when the sellers and service providers one day say; ok, I want my money - the payment you promised?

A joke? Not really; if the bottom falls out of the notes, what have all the people holding actually earned, accumilated all those years? Nothing, unless they have invested a substantial portion in some kind or kinds of tangible assets. Gold, silver etc are tangible assets - they have unique properties which assign them a minumum value.

When you read a headline that says "Gold has risen by $46.50 an ounce in the last three months" it is misleading. Gold does not rise or fall against the dollar, it is the other way around. Fiat money can rise against gold or silver, but only by manipulation of the metals market where a government or several, and perhaps some of the largest private holdings "sell" - dump large quantities on the market. If the fiat money crashes - and they all do eventually - the metal remains.

It would be a mistake to have a gold-based currency in this country, because most of the world's gold production is overseas and subject to manipulation. We do however produce and hold an enormous amount of silver. This is why Lincoln backed his greens with silver, and so did John F Kennedy.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Gold and silver have no intrinsic value to the vast majority of Americans.  You can't eat it, you can't sleep in it, or drive to work with it, it won't keep you warm, it won't make you healthy.  The most common use for gold and silver is in jewelry, yet even as jewelry these metals have no intrinsic value.*  Even to those few industrial concerns that use gold and silver, you still couldn't get much of an intrinsic value out of your gold currency.  Good luck finding a factory that will buy your gold currency for it's raw materials.

Two facts remain.  First, ANY item universally agreed upon as a medium for barter will work as well as any other.  Second, for a modern economy the money base must be easily expandable, which the gold standard would not allow.

I understand that people are uncomfortable with fiat money.  But the Federal Reserve system isn't going anywhere, and your life would suffer if it did.  So don't lose any sleep over it.

*  Gold or silver as jewelry has no intrinsic value.  You can't buy a loaf of bread with a silver earing or make a house payment with a gold bracelet.  You could sell jewelry to someone else who wants it and then use the proceeds to buy food or housing or whatever.  But in that regard it's no better than FRNs - it still depends upon someone else believing it has value in and of itself, even though it lacks any practical utility.

[thebaldguy]

The cost of bread? Bake you own! I bake almost all of our bread at home. I use a bread machine to mix it up, and shape it into loaves and buns. I only use organic flour, and add what ever I want - grains, seeds, nuts, honey, dried fruit, etc. I refuse to pay $3.00 for a loaf of bread that I can make for much less than a buck. I just ordered 50 lbs. of organic flour from a local co-op for $40.00. A jar of yeast costs less than five dollars. If you really want to save on that, make your own sourdough starter.

OK, back to the dollar. The dollar has lost almost 40% of it's value in the last 20 years. The cost of living has gone up and the dollar has gone down. Gold holds its value. In 1933, an ounce of gold bought you a  nice suit; today, an ounce of gold gets you a nice suit. It is valuable because it's rare. Paper money can be printed with reckless abandon; check out Zimbabwe and their financial problems. Even the US government is no longer publishing the M3 numbers http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2006/05/m3_or_not_m3.html" target="_blank">http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/conrad/2005/1122.html(http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2006/05/m3_or_not_m3.html). Why is the total amount of money floating around no longer published? When I saw inflation figures on the news, they omitted energy costs from the inflation calculations. Why? To make things look better than they really are. No elected offical wants to be perceived as a failure.

[drewtam]

I agree

If the anit-fiats really wanted a note with intrinsic value the note would point to pounds of nuclear fuel (uranium, plutonium, or maybe thorium), or oil, or coal. Nuclear fuel and coal are abudant in the US and China. These notes would have real intrinsic value, particularly nuclear fuel. Its worth about $65/lb. Of the utilitarian metals and commodities (iron, aluminum, copper, coal, oil), uranium and plutonium have the largest price per pound. Also consider the wonderful energy density of nuclear fuels (1lb = 3 million lbs of coal), and ultitarianism of any fuel is obvious: transportation, heating, metalurgy, light, manufacturing, water, concrete. Every aspect of our modern life is built on these fuels. Gold certainly does lose value in a major depression, why would I buy gold as an investment or money shelter if I can't afford to eat or heat my home. But I certainly would buy in fuels that can power my car, heat my home, pump my water, and run my business. Although price would still go down, nothing beats real intrinsic value (like being an engineer!).

Its all about estabilishing a currency and controlling it by people and systems that drive incentives to operate in the best interest of the people (like federalism and separation of powers). Keep an extremely low interest rate but also prevent deflation; keep inflation relatively less than economic growth or wealth creation as some call it. It will become the background tool while the rest of us get to work ( spending too) which makes the real growth and wealth.

Of the economic policies this nation has, this one seems like a low priority to change.

Lets focus on the priority issues: Social Security (1/5 of debt), Medicare&Medicaid (1/5 of debt), Interest on debt (<~1/5 of debt).
http://www.federalbudget.com/
And the priority social issues, like the growing underclass.

Then we can debate on how big we want our standing army, and our future plans for war with the middle east (1/5 of debt). Then start working our way to the small stuff, farmer subsidies, federal education expenses, fed reserve, etc (all other programs in the whole budget combined is 1/5 of debt).

Drew

[Art Eatman]

Why worry abvout "anti-fiat"?  The deal is that all fiat money has degraded over time.  If wages rise at the same rate, no problem.  That is an infrequent happening, however. 

One thing about gold:  In a sense it's purely democratic as to its value:  Worldwide, folks don't care what a few US folks think about gold; the Chinese, Indians, the oil folks, etc., all believe gold is a Good Thing.  And, it's a free-market measure of the relative strength of fiat currencies...

Art

[LAK]

Headless Thompson Gunner

Gold and silver have no intrinsic value to the vast majority of Americans.  You can't eat it, you can't sleep in it, or drive to work with it, it won't keep you warm, it won't make you healthy.

You wouldn't live long eating dead Federal Reserve Notes. You might feather a quilt with them - or disinfect and sew them together to make toilet paper. Other than that, to most people with few resources during a crisis, dead Federal Reserve Notes have no value whatsoever.

To a thousand and one domestic and foreign private and commercial scientific, high technology, technological research and developement institutions etc metals like gold and silver will always be needed.

So to people with resources to spare; tangible assets like food, fuel, medicine etc - gold and silver are a sound currency. Dead paper is not going to impress them.

The most common use for gold and silver is in jewelry, yet even as jewelry these metals have no intrinsic value.*  Even to those few industrial concerns that use gold and silver, you still couldn't get much of an intrinsic value out of your gold currency.  Good luck finding a factory that will buy your gold currency for it's raw materials.

There are far more than a few industrial concerns that use precious metals - you are mistaken there. Certainly during a crisis not many such institutions and organizations are going to have on hand and divvy out bread and butter for handfuls of silver. To the individual though, a handful of precious metal is a better longterm bet than a dead paper currency with a folded gov treasury.

Two facts remain.  First, ANY item universally agreed upon as a medium for barter will work as well as any other.

Barter is fine; ideal in fact. If you have the space and correct conditions to store enough items to barter your way through a period of economic sea bottom that may take years to surface from. And if you need to move any more than a superficial distance you have the physical means and security to cart them all around.

Second, for a modern economy the money base must be easily expandable, which the gold standard would not allow

The term "modern economy" is an invented term tailored for globalism. The terms "global economy" and "modern economy" are mutually supportive and applied to justify each other's existance. There is no imperative for any nation to play this game on these terms - unless there are physical resources in the form of raw materials, food or other that can not be produced domestically and must be imported. We need no such thing.

There is nothing we actually need that can not be produced at home.   

I understand that people are uncomfortable with fiat money.  But the Federal Reserve system isn't going anywhere, and your life would suffer if it did.  So don't lose any sleep over it.

We are already inside the bounds of a very thinly veiled depression. Something worse than the 1930s is just over the horizon; not because "I say so", but because the spiralling trillion-dollar debt and an artificially propped currency can not be sustained indefinately.

People should be "uneasy" about the FRS - it is theft on a mass scale. The crime of the century. It is a private institution charging us for the use of our own "money", and charging us a huge amount of interest on the "money" borrowed by their partners in crime in Washington DC, and being devalued as the game progresses. These people need to be in prison for racketeering on a mass scale along with those running a few other Federal agencies and their elected support in Washington.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[richyoung]

People should be "uneasy" about the FRS - it is theft on a mass scale. The crime of the century. It is a private institution charging us for the use of our own "money", and charging us a huge amount of interest on the "money" borrowed by their partners in crime in Washington DC, and being devalued as the game progresses. These people need to be in prison for racketeering on a mass scale along with those running a few other Federal agencies and their elected support in Washington.

+1.  I'll bring my own pitchfork and torch...

[LAK]

And speak of the devil ............

--------------------
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53311

Tuesday, December 19, 2006 Morning Edition

U.S. dollar facing imminent collapse?
Fed in bind as Paulsen, Bernanke head to China

Posted: December 10, 2006
5:38 p.m. Eastern
By Jerome R. Corsi
© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

Even as the stock market is hitting new record highs almost every day, the Federal Reserve and Treasury Department are quietly coordinating a devaluation of the dollar that the Bush administration hopes will be a slow decline rather than a dollar collapse.

This week, in an unusual move, the Bush administration is sending virtually the entire economic "A-team" to visit China for a "strategic economic dialogue" in Beijing Dec. 14 and 15.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke are leading the delegation, along with five other cabinet-level officials, including Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez. Also in the delegation will be Labor Secretary Elaine Chao, Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt, Energy Secretary Sam Bodman, and U.S. Trade Representative Susan Schwab.

The Bush administration wants to get China's cooperation in preventing a dollar collapse. That's the conclusion of John Williams, an experienced professional econometrician, who writes the "Shadow Government Statistics" blog.

 
Williams has re-created M3, a money-supply measure whose data the Federal Reserve simply stopped publishing after issuing a technically worded March 2006 announcement.

Williams reports M3 is currently growing at close to a 9.6 percent rate and trending higher, compared with an 8 percent rate early this year, when the Fed quit reporting the measure.

"The Fed is pumping liquidity into the U.S. economy," Williams told WND, "and the Fed evidently did not want the markets to follow too closely what the Fed was doing with the money supply."

China today now is holding a historically unprecedented $1 trillion in foreign exchange reserves. During the Thanksgiving holiday, an announcement by China that their central bank planned to diversify foreign-exchange holding away from the dollar caused the dollar to drop in value on international currency markets. Since then, the dollar has hit a 20-month low against the euro.

"This was almost an orchestrated announcement," Williams claimed. "Around Thanksgiving the markets were thinly traded. I'm not sure who was playing games there, but the signal was clearly heard."

"You're dealing with mass psychology here," Williams argued. "The central bankers around the world know they are going to take a hit on their dollar holdings. None of the central bankers want to start a dollar panic, but none of the central bankers want to be the last out of the dollar, either."

Williams explained that the Federal Reserve is in a bind.

"Raising rates would kill any chance of avoiding a recession, but in terms of the dollar, we can't raise the rates fast enough when the dollar starts to slip quickly."

Are we experiencing a dollar collapse?

"Not yet," Williams answered. "I believe we're going to have a dollar collapse, but the Fed is going to do its best to slow play the dollar's decline in value, so that it takes a year or two for the dollar value to reach its low point."

Williams explained the risk of collapse the dollar faces:

"There will be a central bank, most probably in Asia, who will start the move away from the dollar and when it happens, you're going to see other central bankers covertly trying to follow. The move will magnify very quickly and it could become a full-fledged panic and a dollar collapse."

The Fed is struggling right now to contain inflation and stimulate economic growth. All the Fed is doing right now with all their grand policy shifts is using a lot of propaganda and market massaging to try to prevent a financial panic."

Recent reports have shown that U.S. gross domestic product growth slowed to 1.6% in the third quarter, the lowest in more than 3 years.

Will a declining dollar help narrow the U.S. trade deficit with China?

"You could take a 30 percent decline in the value of the dollar," Williams argued, "and it wouldn't make much of a dent in our trade deficit with China, not as long as Bush administration trade policy continues to be one-sided in favor of China."

"The Fed is faced with an impossible circumstance with the trade and budget deficits being run by the Bush administration," Williams told WND, "and they are just playing games with the markets and the public by not publishing M3, the broadest measure of money supply and the best indicator we have of long-term activity."

M3 is the broadest measure of the total money in the economy, including checking and savings accounts, cash, time deposits, and money-market funds. Economist Milton Friedman, one of the key economists contributing to the conservative theories that led to the development of "Reaganomics," argued that money supply is a key measure correlated both with economic growth and inflation.

[END]
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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Art Eatman]

"...not as long as Bush administration trade policy continues to be one-sided in favor of China."

"...trade policy..."?  Huh?  Somebody explain to me what change could be made, besides a tariff?  A tariff would knock hell out of the buying power of the lower strata of our economic pyramid.

Art

[richyoung]

China, now the world's largest producer of gold, decides that it's time to take over economically. Action? Release a few hundred million troy ounces of gold onto the market. Result?

Not appreciably different than if they dumped US Treasury bonds and stopped buying them now,...or if the Arabs decide to quit holding petro dollars.

Boy I am SO GLAD that our being on a fiat currency PREVENTED (not) the crisis LAK is posting.  Hate to say I told you so...

[Ron]

Boy I am SO GLAD that our being on a fiat currency PREVENTED (not) the crisis LAK is posting.  Hate to say I told you so...

Back in the eighties I was really really exercised over the whole issue and even bought gold and silver to be prepared.

Looking back I feel a little silly.

The US economy crashing is really not in Chinas best interest. Actually a US economic collapse isn't really in any ones interest save for the Islamic extremists.

Our currency is valued by the worlds confidence in us. A stable relatively free US is an attractive place to make money and keep your money safe.

[Guest]

Boy I am SO GLAD that our being on a fiat currency PREVENTED (not) the crisis LAK is posting.  Hate to say I told you so...

Back in the eighties I was really really exercised over the whole issue and even bought gold and silver to be prepared.

Looking back I feel a little silly...

 Only if you no longer have it. 

 Notice that the fiat proponents are usually the diehard statists that can't live without massive state regulation of all types. 

[Perd Hapley]

mercedes, by your definition, everyone in this conversation are diehard statists who can't live without massive state regulation of all types. 

And please tell us that is not your picture.

[Guest]

mercedes, by your definition, everyone in this conversation are diehard statists who can't live without massive state regulation of all types. 

I was under the impression that many here could live with considerably less regulation. IOW, less than "massive".

And please tell us that is not your picture.

 Why wouldn't it be?

 

[richyoung]

Sweet - what kind of music do you play, & where?

[Guest]

Sweet - what kind of music do you play, & where?

 Nowadays,in our metal-building/studio, Rich. I had a 13+- year professional career in the mid-60's - late 70's. I play rock/blues/R+B styles. My influences go from the earliest days of rock to approximately '80...but I learn new things still.

[richyoung]

Cool - I played in a couple of bar bands here around Fort SIll/Lawton Ok - hope to do so again one day soon.  My big gig was opening for Jason Bonham and Luxx...