Author Topic: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?  (Read 30797 times)

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,396
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2006, 11:25:34 AM »
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=5329.0

In its smaller form, the picture appears to be that of a woman. 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Guest

  • Guest
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2006, 02:24:57 PM »
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=5329.0

In its smaller form, the picture appears to be that of a woman. 

 Haha!  grin

I used to be a "glam-rocker".  Now, I guess I look like an old woman. I get mistaken several times a year still.  undecided

Ron

  • Guest
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2006, 04:17:03 PM »
Cool guitar.

In the smaller form I thought you looked younger and skinnier. Not meant as knock on you, You look kinda Frampton like in your avatar.

Back on topic...

How in the world could we ever get back to a hard currency anyhow? The whole economic system of the planet is based on fiat money and central banks.

Is there even enough gold and silver to cover all the paper and credit?

Guest

  • Guest
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2006, 05:58:13 PM »
Cool guitar.

In the smaller form I thought you looked younger and skinnier. Not meant as knock on you, You look kinda Frampton like in your avatar.

 I think the forum software squishes the pic. Smiley

Quote
Back on topic...

How in the world could we ever get back to a hard currency anyhow? The whole economic system of the planet is based on fiat money and central banks.

 When it collapses under the weight of the trillion$ in derivatives, a new system will be needed.

Quote
Is there even enough gold and silver to cover all the paper and credit?

 Not at the present US$ price of gold. That is the point of using gold as a store of value.

 Trivia: the actual US deficit for 2006, figured the way businesses are forced to perform accounting, is almost twice the size of all the gold ever mined at present gold prices. (At present, the gold price is surreptitiously manipulated downwards by governments but will eventually break free)

 Also, though it seems like going back to coins would be a nuisance, I like to ask (since a one-ounce gold coin is worth $625) how many of those would it take to equal the number of dollars you usually carry? Of course, there would be half, quarter and tenth-oz. coins plus silver.

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2006, 06:13:56 PM »
Quote
I think the forum software squishes the pic.
Crop the sides off with a photo editor, then repost. It should come out OK.
D. R. ZINN

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2006, 07:46:25 AM »

How in the world could we ever get back to a hard currency anyhow? The whole economic system of the planet is based on fiat money and central banks.

Is there even enough gold and silver to cover all the paper and credit?

I'll try to make this simple:  bear with me -

In the 30's, the worst traitor to ever be president since Lincoln, FDR, not only took us off the gold standard, but confiscated all privately held gold except jewelry - and then turned around and sold it on the international markets for more than he paid for it in paper "dollars".  However, the COINS were still silver.  Without out gold backing, the money could be inflated...but only up to the point that weight of $1.00 in coins didn't contain more than $1.00 in silver.  If the weight of the coins in silver was more, (say, $1.50...), you could get change for a paper dollar, melt it down, get $1.50, etc, and soon there would be no coins.  This is part of why the very wise Founding Fathers mandated that ONLY gold or silver coin would be money, and that ONLY Congress would coin money and set the exchange rates between metals.  This is also an example of "Gresham's law", which says that any circulating currency consisting of both "good" and "bad" money (both forms required to be accepted at equal value under legal tender law) quickly becomes dominated by the "bad" money. This is because people spending money will hand over the "bad" coins rather than the "good" ones, keeping the "good" ones for themselves.  (Seen any silver coins in your pocket change?  REAL silver, that is?  Now you know why... This is also why, in the old East Germany, where by law East German marks had the same "value" as west german ones, when they actually traded at 8 to 1, almost no one ever spent western currency.).
 
  So because coins were silver, the "dollar", which before had been pegged as being 1/20.67 ounce (1.5048 g) of gold, now oculd be inflated (more "money" cranked off of the printing presses chasing the same pool of goods and services) until a silver dollar contained more than $1.00 worth of silver...which happened in 1964.

  So the governement stopped using silver in coins.  They basically made their new coins out of worthless sandwich slugs of a nickle-copper-nickle sandwich.  This put us, de-facto, on the "copper standard", until...

The weight of 100 pennies held more than $1.00 worth of copper.  Remember the era of copper thefts in the late '70s - early '80s, when people would steal wiring and plumbing, and burger joints would give you a free hamburger if you changed in a roll of pennies, or 3 burgers would sell for two rolls of pennies?  This was proof that the US had inflated its currency to the point where we could no longer even stay on the COPPER standard!  The penny was switched to a zinc slug with a thin coat od copper - (cut a new penny in half & see for yourself!) in 1982.

Now, our worthless, illegal fiat money has been inflated to the point that we will have to go off of the "zinc standard" - and coincidentaly, China and Opec are about to stop doing business in dollars.  Gee I wonder why?  Fact is, when you inflate a currency by cranking the presses, you basically steal worth from EVERYONE that is holding the inflated currency - all without pass and collect taxes, etc.  You can pick the pockets of the whole world from the comfort and privacy of your office.

Now, if the currency WAS pegged to a precious metal, I'm sure there would be more than enough gold, silver, brass, copper, zinc, platinum, etc to go around...you just set the par value low enough.

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Art Eatman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,442
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2006, 08:59:35 AM »
The value of the nickle in a nickel is more than a nickel, which is why there ain't no more nickle in a nickel.

"Old" pennies were worth a penny, intrinsic, when copper hit $1.22/pound.  While copper futures are dropping due to an anticipated reduction in home building, it's still around $2.90/lb.
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,396
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2006, 09:36:21 AM »
Quote
I think the forum software squishes the pic.
Crop the sides off with a photo editor, then repost. It should come out OK.

Photo editor?  He needs a barber to crop off the top and sides, and everything else.   Tongue 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2006, 10:23:59 AM »
What the Founding Fathers thought of "fiat" money...


" George Mason of Virginia: "I have a mortal hatred of paper money."
" John Langdon of New Hampshire: "I would rather reject the whole [Constitution] than grant the new government the right to issue fiat money."
" George Reed of Delaware: "The right to issue fiat money would be as alarming as the mark of the beast in Revelation."
" Thomas Paine: "The punishment of a member of Congress who should move for such a law ought to be death."

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Joe Demko

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 385
  • Marko Kloos was right about you.
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2006, 01:09:29 PM »
Whether paper money makes the Baby Founding Fathers cry is immaterial.  They were but men.
That's right... I'm a Jackbooted Thug AND a Juvenile Indoctrination Technician.  Deal with it.

Guest

  • Guest
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2006, 07:06:18 AM »
Quote
I think the forum software squishes the pic.
Crop the sides off with a photo editor, then repost. It should come out OK.

Photo editor?  He needs a barber to crop off the top and sides, and everything else.   Tongue 

  grin

Hey, when one is 63 with hair, one flaunts.

Guest

  • Guest
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2006, 07:14:03 AM »
Three Strikes Against the Dollar

 "They [i.e., US Mint officials] claim that they are imposing these rules because they don't want certain individuals who melt down coins taking advantage of the American tax payer. It isn't the people who are melting down the pennies and nickels that are taking advantage of the American taxpayer. Those people are just trying to protect themselves from the stupidity of the Federal Reserve that continues to destroy our currency."

 

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2006, 07:45:25 PM »
+1.  Rock on.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2006, 12:52:30 PM »
I just finished reading Neil Stephenson's "Cryptonomicon".  I don't want to spoil anything for anyone, but it's worth a read on this subject.

scroll down for text...





































The book concerns the construction of a data haven in a small Pacific Nation and the creation of a completely internet-based currency backed by gold.






"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2007, 08:05:00 AM »
rich, you might be right on some of that stuff, I don't know.  But there is more than one kind of dollar out there.  It may be a fed reserve note or anything else, but that doesn't mean it's not a dollar.  The Canadian dollar is not a US dollar, and the US dollar is not a Bohemian thaler, or any historical predecesor.  There's also more than one currency called the real, I believe, and certainly there are a few pesos. 

The POINT would be, what "dollar" is the Consitution refereing to, and therefor the legal "dollar" under our Constitution?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2007, 08:44:04 AM »
If you liked Cryptonomicon, and are interested in finance and currency and commerce and so forth, then you definitely need to read the Baroque Cycle.

Art Eatman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,442
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2007, 08:44:55 AM »
Fiat money was working, pretty much, until several factors came together.  In my cynical fashion, I'll note that some such factors ALWAYS come together.

That is, we had the mix of LBJ's Great Society social programs and the guns'n'butter federal government policies of the Vietnam War era.  This led to hyperactivity for the printing presses.  That gave us the ensuing inflation of the general period of 1968 through 1981.  During that time, when Nixon fully removed us from any tie to gold as a monetary security for our currency, the U.S. dollar bought less and less and less.  We had a respite to some extent during the Reagan tenure, but the decay re-accelerated with Clinton and has sped up even more in these last half-dozen years with the rise in global competition for commodities.

"Full faith and credit" can carry you just so far when you get toward the end of your credit and there's little faith left.

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

Mannlicher

  • Grumpy Old Gator
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,435
  • The Bonnie Blue
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2007, 09:02:51 AM »
for those folks that have seen the light, and realize that their money is worthless, I am offering a free service.  Just package, and mail me all the worthless junk.  I will pay shipping.   laugh

BrokenPaw

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,674
  • Sedit qvi timvit ne non svccederet.
    • ShadowGrove Interpath Ministry
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2007, 09:35:43 AM »
for those folks that have seen the light, and realize that their money is worthless, I am offering a free service.  Just package, and mail me all the worthless junk.  I will pay shipping.   laugh
I have an old, worthless, ratty dollar that I'd like to send you.  Shipping and handling will be $2.39, thanks.   grin

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2007, 09:39:07 AM »
For those of you who think precious metals have no intrinsic value, I will gladly trade you 8 Federal Reserve "dollars" for any single Liberty Dollar that comes into your possession...

http://www.libertydollar.org/
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2007, 01:30:35 PM »
Rich Young,
I will gladly take those nasty illegal Federal Reserve notes off your hands.  Especially the ones with Franklin's picture.
You have made these claims before.  It is nonsense.  Paper money was well known in colonial times.
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/michener.american.colonies.money
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Mannlicher

  • Grumpy Old Gator
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,435
  • The Bonnie Blue
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2007, 04:05:48 PM »
for those folks that have seen the light, and realize that their money is worthless, I am offering a free service.  Just package, and mail me all the worthless junk.  I will pay shipping.   laugh
I have an old, worthless, ratty dollar that I'd like to send you.  Shipping and handling will be $2.39, thanks.   grin

-BP

funny.  Just send it first class for .39   ok?

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2007, 05:58:32 PM »
Rich Young,
I will gladly take those nasty illegal Federal Reserve notes off your hands.  Especially the ones with Franklin's picture.
You have made these claims before.  It is nonsense.  Paper money was well known in colonial times.
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/michener.american.colonies.money


..and it was despised - in colonial times, the Civil War era, etc.  "Not worth a Continental" - ever heard that phrase before?  It pretty much says it all.  +There was a REASON that the Founding Fathers MANDATED "gold and silver coin" to be lawful money.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2007, 07:58:25 PM »
Prior to the civil war it was common for currency to be issued by regional banks, not just the FedGov.  Banks printed and issued their own notes, and presumably backed them (or not) as they pleased.  Initially, a region's inhabitants would use these local currencies for specie much moreso than than the Federal currency. 

By the time the civil war came around, the Northerners had come to favor a centralized Federal currency because it made interstate (and even intra-state) trade and commerce easier.  The Southerners still favored localized currencies, because it decentralized the system and made the various regions more economically autonomous and independent.  The Southerners felt that a central, government-backed currency would give the government power to control the economy, which was something they feared. 

This gave a huge advantage to the North in the Civil War.  Northerners could raise money in Ohio, pay it to soldiers from New Hampshire, and spend it on rifles from Pennsylvania or uniforms from New York.  By contrast, if the South raised money in Texas it would only be good in Texas.  That money wouldn't buy food in Virginia or pay soldiers from South Carolina, at least not without a great big mess of currency conversion every time the money crossed a regional border.

LAK

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 915
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #74 on: January 04, 2007, 12:42:20 AM »
I think it was Benjamin Franklin at a dinner pary in england who supposedly blabbered something about governors or others here in the colony issuing their own script that enraged the Crown right before the revolutionary war.

-----------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org