Author Topic: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"  (Read 26677 times)

Scout26

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2017, 03:59:26 PM »
While you or I might think that is reasonable, I'm not sure that is where the UBI people are. Maybe not the UBI supporters on APS, but the coastal elite types in favor of it do not seem to be looking for some "minimum daily requirements" thing. As part of "basic", they mean UBI is high enough so you can buy the same food anyone with a median income job might buy, or else they look at the Michelle Obama food model. They certainly don't seem to be looking at something as "demeaning" as going to some gov sponsored food warehouse.

For people who are truly in need:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFJ_jmTaZ3Q

As an aside, I remember this PSA on Saturday mornings when the .gov was passing out the Free Cheese
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xRv9ZQOCPo


We've volunteered at "Feed My Starving Children".
If these packets are good enough to keep the children and poor of the rest of the world alive, then they are good enough for our poor and starving:
https://www.fmsc.org/-/media/files/pdfs/mediaresources/fmsc-facts-2016.pdf

So for $.25 you can feed 6-12 people a nutritious meal, so depending on the number and size of people in the family you can feed everyone for less then $1.00 per day.  Throw in a bag of beans and a bag of rice (weight of bags determined by # of people in the household) and there's more then enough to feed everyone for an reasonable cost.  No more food stamps or food stamp fraud.   I would guess there would be a limited black market for FMSC food packs, beans, and rice.  It would also serve as an incentive to get your butt to work, any work.   And if we got rid of the minimum wage at the same time; many, many, many people would suddenly be able to find work and begin to pull themselves up by their boot straps.




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KD5NRH

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2017, 04:39:49 PM »
Well, either I don't know what UBI is, or some of you guys don't. Universal means everybody gets it. EVERYBODY.

I was referring to Firethorn's proposal where everybody from the bum on the corner to each member of the Trump family does get the $500/mo, and those who earn significantly above poverty level have some, all or more taken back in income taxes. 
The fraud potential I was talking about would be receiving it under multiple identities; either effectively stealing it from real live people or "reviving" dead ones to get it. 

KD5NRH

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2017, 04:57:04 PM »
So for $.25 you can feed 6-12 people a nutritious meal, so depending on the number and size of people in the family you can feed everyone for less then $1.00 per day.

So why aren't these packs produced for retail sale as well?  If I could get them for $1 each, and the organization got at least a third of the >$0.75 profit, that would mean that every one sold covers at least one to be given away.  Or sell it on the website and every pack bought provides three more.  Go to $2 each and it's still a good deal, that pays for seven meals for every one bought.  Even if it's pretty much a bland gruel by modern American standards, a few days per person of nutritionally balanced food for a buck would fly off the shelves when the preppers found it.  "Just add water" prep means campers and hikers would buy it up too.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2017, 04:58:08 PM »
I was swearing more or less constantly when they did a local piece and mentioned how many workers, inside alaska, would decline raises and full time hours because of the threat it placed on their benefits.  Earning $1/hour more could literally cost them thousands.

This is the reason I favor a flat rate income tax, with a floor (to be determined), and with as few exemptions as possible (preferably, none).
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White Horseradish

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2017, 05:58:21 PM »

There are actually libertarian guaranteed income people, though we approach it differently than the democrats do.  They approach it as a human rights thing.  I approach it as being ultimately a money saver as well as personal freedom increaser.


I think there is a business case to be made to pay people not to riot. Giving a handout is cheaper than having a city go up in flames and the dealing with the aftermath.

I also think that government knows this. We effectively already do this today. What we don't do is be honest about it. "Welfare", "assistance", "disability" - they are all really the same thing in different guises.

A rather understated benefit of UBI is that it will allow replacing a multitude of interconnected entities with one administration. Imagine how many bureaucrats you could fire...  The overhead will drop though the floor.
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2017, 06:08:55 PM »
I think there is a business case to be made to pay people not to riot. Giving a handout is cheaper than having a city go up in flames and the dealing with the aftermath.

Related:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/cities-have-begun-to-challenge-a-bedrock-of-american-justice-theyre-paying-criminals-not-to-kill/2016/03/26/f25a6b9c-e9fc-11e5-a6f3-21ccdbc5f74e_story.html?utm_term=.79415338cdfc


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A rather understated benefit of UBI is that it will allow replacing a multitude of interconnected entities with one administration. Imagine how many bureaucrats you could fire...  The overhead will drop though the floor.

No offense meant, but I think that's naive.  The bureaucrats will find a way to justify their continued existence.  What's that old saying?  "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy."
"End of quote.  Repeat the line."
  - Joe 'Ron Burgundy' Biden

Firethorn

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2017, 10:45:28 PM »
Sorry for the long post guys, was busy at work, had to wait until after to pay proper attention to this.
First up, some links on libertarian proposals for this:
https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/libertarian-case-basic-income - reduce size and scope of government by eliminating bloated bureaucracies, and reducing 'paternalism', IE people poking their noses into what poor people spend their money on.

https://www.cato-unbound.org/2014/08/04/matt-zwolinski/pragmatic-libertarian-case-basic-income-guarantee - recommends $10k/year, which is more than my $6k, but meh.

http://basicincome.org/news/2016/08/us-johnson-supports-basic-income-libertarian-principles/

That's basic living expenses.  Show me privacy on Maslow's hierarchy.  Plenty of places in the world, 4+ adults in what typically passes for a 1 bedroom place here is pretty common, and they're healthy.  Americans aren't a special species with different basic needs.  Heck, military barracks and the service members who have lived in them for extended periods are proof of that.

Indeed, which is why I point out that $6k per adult, assuming you have 4 living together, actually reach the federal poverty line.  Well, within a few dollars. 

Don't want to have 3 roommates?  Get a job!

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Could I live like that indefinitely?  Sure.  Would I want to?  Not on a bet.

As you mention, goal achieved!

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As for government cheese, I've said before that I'd favor ditching virtually all food stamp programs in favor of a simple system granting 8 Humanitarian Daily Rations per week to every citizen who cares to collect them.

Do you have a citation on being able to get them down below $1 each?  Because I'm looking online and they seem closer to $7 each, and I doubt that even bulk purchasing will keep the total cost much lower once you factor in the cost of obtaining warehousing, down to the minor towns, and don't forget that you'd need said warehouses/distribution centers along at least the bus routes, so you can't just buy/lease the cheapest warehouse in town.  You'll also need an agent at each distribution center to issue said rations, while ensuring that people only get their quota.

No, I don't think such a program would be as cheap as you think.  Note, crawled wikipedia, where it says that a HDR is 'approximately' 1/5th the cost of a MRE, which is $87/12.  Or about $1.50.  I wouldn't be surprised in that case if the majority of the expense ends up being the cost of the distribution center and employee(s) to issue them.

I also don't think it's "fraud proof" for one moment.  You're giving away food.  I can see plenty of fraud, a lot of it on the back end.  Fake issuing out more packages than you actually distribute, sell the packages on ebay, or even overseas.  People picking it up could use fake information to pick up more than their 'share', and again, sell it to those who can't be bothered to pick them up themselves, overseas, campers, etc...

Then you have the "prison loaf" problem - it's quite possible to have food that's so nasty that people will willingly starve rather than eat it. 

It's not like I object all that much - it's just that we've found through hard experience that the close aid is to cash, the more effective it is, contrary to all expectations.  Food stamps are actually cheaper.

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For education, as has been said elsewhere, let's divert some/most of the college assistance toward trade schools and certification programs, with a preference based on market demand and demonstrated aptitude.

Trade schools are already generally quite affordable compared to college, and as long as they meet certain easy requirements are still eligible for various types of financial aid.  It's the latter two that are more interesting as far as requirements go.  Right now the government doesn't distinguish between a STEM degree where graduates are typically hired the year before graduation, and other degrees where the applicant typically languishes for a year or more after graduation before finding a job - as a barista. 

So I'm getting a sort of military ASVAB + limited choice vibe here:  Here's the open career fields that your tests indicate that you're eligible for, and here's what we recommend.

But that's diverging from the idea of a UBI a bit...

The problem with things like UBI and the Earned Income Credit is that they are DIS-incentives for people to work.   Yeah, I've got a great idea or I'd really like to make more, but if I do, then I lose some of my freebies.   

Actually, the disincentives that you mention is one of the things that a UBI is supposed to address.  Because your "freebies" consist of, solely, $6k-10k in payments a year.  Which you do not lose if you get a job.  So where's the disincentive to work more?

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And I distinctly remember .gov cheese and butter growing up.  Not because we qualified for it, but because my Dad owned a tavern.  One day a guy came wanting a beer, but he had no money.  He offered my dad a block of .gov cheese in exchange.  My dad agreed to the trade.

Congratulations, you've discovered arbitrage! 

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I would bet that some people signed up for the free cheese just to turn it into a free beer.

No way in hell would I take your bet.  Because I know darn well that many did.

This is the reason I favor a flat rate income tax, with a floor (to be determined), and with as few exemptions as possible (preferably, none).

Actually, it's not income taxes that are causing the problem.  They're all adjusted so that when, for example, you go from the 10% tax rate to the 15%, it doesn't penalize you.

IE Your first $9,325(2017) is 10%
So if you earn $10k(adjusted), you pay:
$9325*.10=932.50
$675*.15 = 101.25
Totaling $1,033.75 (rounded up to the nearest whole dollar, $1034).
Rather than owing $1,500.

But many welfare benefits don't work that way.  Earn $1 over $10k?  There goes your $200/month food stamp benefit.  Earn $1 over $20k?  There goes your housing assistance...  Every program has it's own phaseouts, assuming they're not cliffs, and because you could be on a number of benefit plans, overlapping phaseouts, even if a proper phaseout exists, can result in a cliff of its own.  For the purposes of this, a "cliff" is encountered whenever earning $X amount more results in the loss of $X+Y benefits, with Y being a positive number.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2017, 11:37:00 PM »
I think there is a business case to be made to pay people not to riot. Giving a handout is cheaper than having a city go up in flames and the dealing with the aftermath.

I also think that government knows this. We effectively already do this today. What we don't do is be honest about it. "Welfare", "assistance", "disability" - they are all really the same thing in different guises.

A rather understated benefit of UBI is that it will allow replacing a multitude of interconnected entities with one administration. Imagine how many bureaucrats you could fire...  The overhead will drop though the floor.

I've got a great business model for dealing with rioters. Use a *expletive deleted*ing water cannon on them. Industrial quantities of tear gas, and arsonists and looters can be dosed with lead.
Enough of that and you'll see a hell of a lot less of riots.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Sideways_8

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2017, 01:03:14 AM »
I've got a great business model for dealing with rioters. Use a *expletive deleted*ing water cannon on them. Industrial quantities of tear gas, and arsonists and looters can be dosed with lead.
Enough of that and you'll see a hell of a lot less of riots.

Why use a water cannon? Seems like a waste of water. Lead can be reused.

Firethorn, you seem to have an overly optimistic view of people. A UBI isn't going to make the lazy less lazy. Giving people money will not increase their incentive to work.

Firethorn

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2017, 01:22:32 AM »
I've got a great business model for dealing with rioters. Use a *expletive deleted*ing water cannon on them. Industrial quantities of tear gas, and arsonists and looters can be dosed with lead.
Enough of that and you'll see a hell of a lot less of riots.

Does the French Revolution ring any bells?  People get desperate enough, and you're going to have to worry about arsonists and looters who are as armed as you are. 

Firethorn, you seem to have an overly optimistic view of people. A UBI isn't going to make the lazy less lazy. Giving people money will not increase their incentive to work.

And you're overly pessimistic.  Yes, there will be people "too lazy" to work.  In testing, these turned out to be mostly new mothers and teenagers in school. 

And the thing is, do you realize that we're already giving them money?  Quite huge amounts of it, actually.  Additionally, most of those on welfare are working.  They're just not working full time, or that much, if any, above minimum wage.  They might be lazy, but they're not that lazy.  There are quite a few who at least say they'd be willing to work more if it wasn't that they'd lose their healthcare, or housing assistance, or whatever, at great cost.

Hell, I saw it with my brother.  Marry his baby-momma, lose thousands in benefits a year for her kids(she had one before from a different father).  BIG?  Doesn't care.  Marry away.

Once more, the current system disincentivizes people with "welfare cliffs".  They will literally lose income by earning income, at least at certain levels. 

Let's not assume that these people are that stupid.  They're stuck on what's known as a "local maximum".  Let's say your boss came to you with a "promotion" - then let you know that the pay raise was a "Negative five thousand", oh, and you'd be expected to work another 20 hours a week.  Would you take it?

Why?  Let's assume that people are greedy but somewhat short sighted.  There was a workup of a single mother.  Turns out that her "local maximum" was a full time job at $13.94/hour, at which the mixture of benefits is equivalent of $57k.  In order to be better off, she'd have to go from $29k/year(the limit for housing & food benefits) to over $60k/year to be better off!





Note that there are EIGHT different programs in the chart. I'm proposing reducing it to ONE.




Sideways_8

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2017, 03:05:04 AM »
I'd like to think I'm not overly pessimistic. I do seem to recall being called an optimist once. I can't see how handing people money will make them less lazy. If only the basic amount of money required to survive is being doled out, how is the economy going to grow? Where exactly does this extra investment money come from? Or is this going to be just another form of welfare, but even worse? UBI screams stagnation to me.

Firethorn

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2017, 05:25:21 AM »
I'd like to think I'm not overly pessimistic. I do seem to recall being called an optimist once. I can't see how handing people money will make them less lazy. If only the basic amount of money required to survive is being doled out, how is the economy going to grow? Where exactly does this extra investment money come from? Or is this going to be just another form of welfare, but even worse? UBI screams stagnation to me.

Oh, that's the problem.  It's not that we're handing them money that's supposed to make them less lazy.  I'm targeting a vice more powerful than sloth in humans - greed.  I figure that, properly incentivized, greed will win out over laziness.  Well, other than the stay at home in the basement types, but then, they're generally supported by their parents, no skin off of our nose.  That and, again, a lot of people on welfare aren't that lazy, and if they are, it's because they've been trained to be.

It's that we're giving it to them in such a way that if they drag their asses out and go work that they get more of it.  Call it an 'incentive' to work in that they'll have more luxuries if they do so.  As I keep saying, for many welfare is currently a trap - they will, at least for a time, earn less if they get a job that pays over a certain amount.  As I asked before, you're offered a promotion.  Along with this promotion comes the expectation of working 20 more hours a week and a negative $5k "pay raise".  Do you take the offer?

Yes, the UBI is another form of welfare, but it's not "even worse".  It's better.
1.  Because it's a pure cash payment and static per adult, it's cheap to administer
2.  Pure cash is actually a more effective form of welfare, people on the dole need less money in the form of cash than they do if you split it up like in the chart - between food stamps(2-3 programs), housing assistance, energy subsidies, subsidized child care, etc...
3.  Eliminating welfare cliffs - As I keep saying, a lot of the poor stay on government programs because they make more money that way.  Fix it so that they actually *make* money if they go out and get more work or better paying work, they might actually do so.
4.  It's a cheaper automatic way to handle welfare and numerous other payments that are currently need based.  Verifying need is expensive bureaucratically, so we want to avoid that.  It's why I'd give Bill Gates the same $6k/year as I'd give Joe McBroke.
5.  Eliminates some of the problems we have with single motherhood.  If a intact family gets the same or better benefits, people are more likely to stick together - 2 UBIs handles 1 household better than 2. 
6.  Disincentives broke women from having kids.  If they weren't assured the government would pay for them, do you think they'd have so many?
etc...

Okay, on to other things.  Why are you bringing up the economy?  Is normal welfare supposed to grow the economy?  Stagnation, in what?  Are you assuming that people are just going to sit on what's really an even more stingy payment that what is often currently offered?  At $6k/year you're not going to be able to afford a TV, XBox, internet, cell phone, etc...

What about cost savings?  You give a homeless person $6k/year, and he can probably afford a bunkhouse* somewhere.  Food, etc...  It's certainly cheaper than leaving them homeless($40k/year).  If bunkhouses are illegal, well, fix that!

Scout26

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DittoHead

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2017, 08:56:00 AM »
Actually, it's not income taxes that are causing the problem.  They're all adjusted so that when, for example, you go from the 10% tax rate to the 15%, it doesn't penalize you.

The number of people I've encountered who do not understand this is absolutely stunning to me.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2017, 09:54:08 AM »
As you mention, goal achieved!

And exactly the goal, IMO; one could live and be perfectly healthy, but in conditions I can't imagine anyone actually wanting badly enough to not at least supplement the income with some part time yard work or something.

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Do you have a citation on being able to get them down below $1 each?

That was based on the"1/5 the cost of an MRE" and some numbers I found somewhere on containerload prices for US MREs being sold to other countries.

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I also don't think it's "fraud proof" for one moment.  You're giving away food.  I can see plenty of fraud, a lot of it on the back end.  Fake issuing out more packages than you actually distribute, sell the packages on ebay, or even overseas.  People picking it up could use fake information to pick up more than their 'share', and again, sell it to those who can't be bothered to pick them up themselves, overseas, campers, etc...

If any of those people wanting it could get it legitimately for $2, there's no incentive to pay more on the black market.  For that matter, even online sales could be killed that way; .gov can also sell them on the web, with cheap delivery.

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Then you have the "prison loaf" problem - it's quite possible to have food that's so nasty that people will willingly starve rather than eat it.

Some MREs are that bad, but some I actually like.  HDRs seem a bit bland, or disturbingly vomit-like in the case of peas in tomato sauce, but as free food goes, I've certainly had worse.  Monitoring the extras people buy would pretty quickly show the most successful menu items.

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It's not like I object all that much - it's just that we've found through hard experience that the close aid is to cash, the more effective it is, contrary to all expectations.  Food stamps are actually cheaper.

Cheaper per calorie consumed?  I find that hard to believe.  But the primary advantage here is that nobody gets to say their $500/mo leaves them starving.

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So I'm getting a sort of military ASVAB + limited choice vibe here:  Here's the open career fields that your tests indicate that you're eligible for, and here's what we recommend.

Only in terms of benefits available; obviously there would be no limits on what someone can pay for out of their own pocket or find private financing for.  I'm not even saying that Suzy the restaurant manager shouldn't be able to get some assistance if she wants to learn to be a diesel mechanic despite having trouble changing a tire on her Yugo, but not as much as someone with a demonstrated aptitude.  Taxpayer backed loans or flat out taxpayer funded grants should be based on actual potential benefit to the nation. 

cordex

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2017, 10:05:06 AM »
The number of people I've encountered who do not understand this is absolutely stunning to me.
Why is that?  Do you find our tax code to be clear, concise and easy to understand?  Do you consider it a particularly intuitive way to set up progressive taxation?

Firethorn,
First off, you are making a case for a very different system than what is being suggested by Zuckerberg and others.  Secondly, I doubt you will find many advocates here for the existing and manifold welfare systems, and you make some entirely valid criticisms of them.  They are poorly designed, poorly administered, inefficient and provide incentives for counterproductive decision making.  That said, the idea that all existing bureaucracy and welfare could be flushed away and replaced outright is more than a little optimistic but entirely necessary to justify your proposed replacement.  A more realistic and achievable goal would be to build in better means testing and smoother transitions for other welfare programs.

White Horseradish,
It may serve in the short run to pay Danegeld to prospective rioters, but in the long run it encourages greater misbehavior and further extortion by rewarding the threat of violence.  Ever see a child whose parents give in at the threat of a tantrum?  Yeah, it might mean getting out of a given situation with less conflict, but the long-term cost is vastly greater than dealing with it firmly and immediately.

KD5NRH

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2017, 10:17:16 AM »
2.  Pure cash is actually a more effective form of welfare, people on the dole need less money in the form of cash than they do if you split it up like in the chart - between food stamps(2-3 programs), housing assistance, energy subsidies, subsidized child care, etc...

This is one I've seen in action; couple with two kids in a bills-paid two bedroom apartment, dad hurt off the job ended up working fast food and taking night classes to get into a career he could do with a bad back.  Daughter was approaching puberty, so sharing a room with her brother was pretty much past its limit.  They were eligible for some rent assistance and some utility assistance, but they couldn't apply the utility assistance toward the rent, which would have made the difference in upgrading to a three bedroom apartment.
Eventually, they did manage to get help from a church that wasn't prohibited from using common sense in administering their assistance, though.

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3.  Eliminating welfare cliffs - As I keep saying, a lot of the poor stay on government programs because they make more money that way.  Fix it so that they actually *make* money if they go out and get more work or better paying work, they might actually do so.

The most important aspect of any program, IMO.

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5.  Eliminates some of the problems we have with single motherhood.  If a intact family gets the same or better benefits, people are more likely to stick together - 2 UBIs handles 1 household better than 2. 
6.  Disincentives broke women from having kids.  If they weren't assured the government would pay for them, do you think they'd have so many?
etc...

I might be slightly more generous; say, $9k for an adult and a child, but no further incentives for more kids.  Thus an intact couple could get $18k for themselves and two kids, but a single mother caps out at one kid.

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What about cost savings?  You give a homeless person $6k/year, and he can probably afford a bunkhouse* somewhere.  Food, etc...  It's certainly cheaper than leaving them homeless($40k/year).  If bunkhouses are illegal, well, fix that!

Exactly; as I said, I would seriously consider a bunkhouse or hostel arrangement temporarily if it was significantly cheaper than my current living arrangement.  Another $150-200/mo going toward debts, then into savings would have me back to the financial shape I'm shooting for in half the time.

makattak

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2017, 10:34:20 AM »
I might be slightly more generous; say, $9k for an adult and a child, but no further incentives for more kids.  Thus an intact couple could get $18k for themselves and two kids, but a single mother caps out at one kid.

Not ever going to happen in the current state of things.

Allow me to respond with what would be the very rational counter argument: "You want to STARVE CHILDREN for the bad choices of their parents!??!?! YOU MONSTER!"
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

DittoHead

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2017, 10:53:47 AM »
Do you find our tax code to be clear, concise and easy to understand?  Do you consider it a particularly intuitive way to set up progressive taxation?

Our entire tax code? No. But the tax brackets themselves and how it works when you go from one bracket to the next is a very basic and important concept. That's why it's so stunning to find out, especially in the middle of a discussion about taxes, that someone doesn't even understand how that works.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

MechAg94

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2017, 10:54:01 AM »
IMO, optimism and good government are mutually exclusive.  In addition to "if you subsidize it, you will get more of it."
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Ben

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2017, 10:58:19 AM »
The number of people I've encountered who do not understand this is absolutely stunning to me.

Dittohead and Firethorn, maybe you guys can explain this to me and my CPA, because when I jump tax brackets, I'm penalized. Extremely so in some cases regarding dividends and capital gains.
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MechAg94

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2017, 11:12:34 AM »
Y'all are putting a lot of effort into solutions that shouldn't need to be solved.  But if you really want to give money away apart from charity, find a way to do it below the federal level.  Below the state level would be even  better.  The more local the money is collected and spent, the more likely it will be used efficiently.  As long as the money is coming from some far away big govt and taxpayers somewhere else, there will be little incentive to use the money wisely.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Firethorn

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2017, 11:32:05 AM »
The number of people I've encountered who do not understand this is absolutely stunning to me.

When I was younger I was for a much steeper drawdown of welfare benefits than I am now, part of the problem I've come to realize is that you end up with overlapping costs.  IE a welfare program that uses gross income, which is taxed, even if only at 10%.  So a 50% reduction becomes a 56% reduction.

That was based on the"1/5 the cost of an MRE" and some numbers I found somewhere on containerload prices for US MREs being sold to other countries.

I can't help but think that at that level of abstraction that the price estimate might not hold - it depends on the price the wiki owner looked at.  MSRP, Amazon, bulk, what?

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If any of those people wanting it could get it legitimately for $2, there's no incentive to pay more on the black market.  For that matter, even online sales could be killed that way; .gov can also sell them on the web, with cheap delivery.

I still think that it's abusable if the .gov is subsidizing it in any way.  And if you're using it to argue that somebody on the UBI isn't starving, well, why not just increase the UBI a bit?

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Only in terms of benefits available; obviously there would be no limits on what someone can pay for out of their own pocket or find private financing for.  I'm not even saying that Suzy the restaurant manager shouldn't be able to get some assistance if she wants to learn to be a diesel mechanic despite having trouble changing a tire on her Yugo, but not as much as someone with a demonstrated aptitude.  Taxpayer backed loans or flat out taxpayer funded grants should be based on actual potential benefit to the nation. 

Well, as the way things are, you don't have to work for the military either, and accept military training...  (I agree)

KD5NRH

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2017, 01:11:44 PM »
Allow me to respond with what would be the very rational counter argument: "You want to STARVE CHILDREN for the bad choices of their parents!??!?! YOU MONSTER!"

Not at all; the kids get their own 8 ration packs a week.

Which would also provide far more incentive to the states' various agencies to act swiftly and mercilessly on "parents" whose kids aren't getting fed properly.