Author Topic: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?  (Read 5126 times)

Pb

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What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« on: June 07, 2017, 10:03:46 AM »
What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?

RevDisk

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2017, 10:34:47 AM »

Convince west to declare war on Islam. Which will unite all of Islam together in self-defense. Establish a caliphate. Tax people if they don't convert. Must continue to expand the borders of the caliphate, as a religious requirement.
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AJ Dual

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2017, 11:18:12 AM »
Convince west to declare war on Islam. Which will unite all of Islam together in self-defense. Establish a caliphate. Tax people if they don't convert. Must continue to expand the borders of the caliphate, as a religious requirement.

This.

Which is kind of oxymoronic... Because what they want is impossible. Even if we in the West completely played into it.

1. Islam will never unite. If you look at body-count, it's clear that internecine/sectarian violence within Islam kills orders of magnitude more people than Islam kills Westerners, Christians, Jews etc. And the fracture lines are deep indeed. Not even counting Sunni vs. Shia, just within Sunni, where one might think there's agreement... The rather brutal and repressive Saudi Wahabis vs. the more Salafi/Takfiris stance ISIS takes. One would think they're close cousins, but ISIS/ISIL considers most of Wahhabism, and other Sunnis who make the pilgrimage to be idolaters due to the Kaaba in Mecca etc.

And even if you could wipe away the sectarian problems, the national/regional ones that add a whole other layer of back-stabby complexity to it all... it just wouldn't function because they're so culturally handicapped. The endemic lack of trust beyond one's family or tribe etc. and the corruption would leave them hamstrung. Granted, this has worked in ISIS' favor, like how the Iraqi forces, trained and supplied by the US with helicopters and export M1 Abrams tanks... initially fled before ISIS in a bunch of Toyotas with RPG's.   :P  But ISIS has the same problems internally. Units cutting and running, all the foreign fighters drawn to jihad can also just as easily flee back to their homes if the going gets rough etc.

2. Ignoring #1 for the sake of argument, assuming the unified caliphate got established, regional/national militaries and their logistics were all integrated... They still lose to the U.S., NATO, and the "West". And that's assuming Russia and China sit it out, or hell, even if they actually help this putative Caliphate with logistics/weapons, hoping it'll weaken/destroy the West for them by proxy. It would be a bloodbath. A turkey shoot. Imagine how Iraq fell in one week to us twice in Gulf Wars 1 and 2, but the whole region. And we'd bring air and naval assets into play that we never needed in Iraq.

And if it were "total war" without occupation, nation building, or hearts-and-minds stuff afterward, and civilian/economic targets were on the table and not just military ones, it could conceivably depopulate the Middle Eastern Muslim population by something like 50 to even 90% within a year through infrastructure collapse.

I mean... Israel, all alone, defeated what arguably would have mostly comprised such a caliphate army three times in the 20th century. Imagine what the U.S./NATO would do to them.
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Mannlicher

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2017, 12:00:16 PM »
What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?

if you have to ask, you just have not been paying attention for the past 20 years.,

Scout26

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2017, 12:08:40 PM »
AJ, you forgot the entire Persian/Arab rift as well, and that goes back as far as recorded history, even before 600 CE.

Plus the most populous Muslim country isn't even the Middle East (Indonesia). And if somehow the Middle East Muslims did unite, to include Pakistan,, India would go fast and hard into Kashmir.  So the "caliphate" would be fighting at least a multi-front (at least two) war with India and NATO (Again, assuming that at best Russia and China were, at best, supplying the Muslim side.)

Plus we've trained most of the Muslim world so we know how they react to given events, and have built in some predictability to their actions....aka "Break left".
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RevDisk

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 01:25:05 PM »
This.

Which is kind of oxymoronic... Because what they want is impossible. Even if we in the West completely played into it.

"God wills it" is the standard answer to your points. It's not remotely an Islamic thing. Actually, more than a couple folks believe that the Islamic folks will have to lose some huge battle before the 'end times' start and they start to win again. Hence why the ISIS caliphate was considered a huge deal and why they've had so many concerns. They announced a caliphate, which is automatically supposed to get support from all Muslims everywhere (bwahahaha). They also have a couple of key cities where apocalyptic wars are supposed to be faught.

Westerners have plenty of Book of Revelation cults, for two thousand years. This is no different. The reality doesn't matter. That it is impossible, doesn't matter. "God wills it."


if you have to ask, you just have not been paying attention for the past 20 years.,

It's a fair question.

99.99% of westerns don't know it. Government and military has a much higher percentage of awareness. 98% are unaware of the actual goals of Islamic militants. I'm being generous, but you get the idea.
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K Frame

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2017, 01:39:33 PM »
Scare people?

Kill infidels?

Win the "Islamic 72 Virgins" lottery?
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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2017, 01:58:50 PM »
if you have to ask, you just have not been paying attention for the past 20 1300 years.,

Fixed.
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dogmush

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2017, 02:32:58 PM »
if you have to ask, you just have not been paying attention for the past 20 years.,

Out of curiosity: What do you think Islamic Terrorists want to accomplish with their attacks?  What's their strategic goal?

I ask, because based on your posts here, I would have pegged you as one of the majority of Americans that Rev mentioned, i.e. not really understanding the depth of difference in cultural principals, and the specific planning and goals of Islamic terrorism.

MechAg94

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2017, 02:50:56 PM »
Convince west to declare war on Islam. Which will unite all of Islam together in self-defense. Establish a caliphate. Tax people if they don't convert. Must continue to expand the borders of the caliphate, as a religious requirement.
I think the first two sentences are a bit too complicated for them.  I agree with the later part.  I don't think they consider the West capable of bringing war to Islam. 

That said, look at what has happened in Iraq the last 20 years.  They are just treating Westerners the same way they treat each other. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2017, 03:12:16 PM »
I have often wondered what if the West were to destroy, vaporize, their false god allah, by destroying Mecca and the Al Kaaba Al Musharrafah.  Some believe the entire religious/government structure would collapse.  I tend to lean in that direction because I agree with what AJ explained above in detail.
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RevDisk

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2017, 05:00:42 PM »
I have often wondered what if the West were to destroy, vaporize, their false god allah, by destroying Mecca and the Al Kaaba Al Musharrafah.  Some believe the entire religious/government structure would collapse.  I tend to lean in that direction because I agree with what AJ explained above in detail.

Point proven in anyone was leery of my assertion.  =D

That would be a good way of trying to accomplish the Islamic terrorist goals. And no, it likely would not make Islam disappear. Unfortunately, it's a non-centralized religion. Essentially all clerics are more or less independent, except for... reputation? Kinda, sorta. Some clerics are more respected than others, but there's no official hierarchy. Except when there is.

Unless you're talking about it uniting all Muslims across the world into a single jihad which would then be easily destroyed. Which neither would happen. Unifying all Muslims everywhere won't happen. Ever. Because it's worse than herding cats. And any time anyone claims an enemy can be "easily destroyed", they tend to miss the point that we've lost the majority of significant wars where we're trying to take over someone else's turf. Technology favors defenders over invaders.
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Fitz

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2017, 05:33:38 PM »
if you have to ask, you just have not been paying attention for the past 1395 years.,

Fixed it for you

The goal of Islamic terrorism in the west is the exact same as the goal of islam when it was founded: kill or subjugate every nonbeliever in the world.
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Fitz

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2017, 05:36:36 PM »
I have often wondered what if the West were to destroy, vaporize, their false god allah, by destroying Mecca and the Al Kaaba Al Musharrafah.  Some believe the entire religious/government structure would collapse.  I tend to lean in that direction because I agree with what AJ explained above in detail.

... they don't believe the black stone IS allah, gramps...
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AJ Dual

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2017, 05:51:10 PM »
I have often wondered what if the West were to destroy, vaporize, their false god allah, by destroying Mecca and the Al Kaaba Al Musharrafah.  Some believe the entire religious/government structure would collapse.  I tend to lean in that direction because I agree with what AJ explained above in detail.

It would be like nuking Vatican City, when your beef is with the Baptists and Presbyterians, the Greek Orthodox Church.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2017, 06:20:09 PM »
Peace. Duh!
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2017, 06:30:11 PM »
It would be like nuking Vatican City, when your beef is with the Baptists and Presbyterians, the Greek Orthodox Church.

Dammit, ya gotta sart someplace.
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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2017, 06:45:11 PM »
Day of the Siege. Good film, probably find it free online. Same goals, different century. Same solution. I love the whole killing terrorists creates more terrorists argument. Why yes it does. Creates new, poorly trained, non ideal physical specimens who have just had their new to them stuff broken. Who then hopefully cluster into more compact military targets or out in the world try to pull off more inept capers.
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Mannlicher

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2017, 09:18:26 PM »
Out of curiosity: What do you think Islamic Terrorists want to accomplish with their attacks?  What's their strategic goal?

I ask, because based on your posts here, I would have pegged you as one of the majority of Americans that Rev mentioned, i.e. not really understanding the depth of difference in cultural principals, and the specific planning and goals of Islamic terrorism.

laughing.  You would have pegged me wrong,  but to address your question,  the purpose of islam is to dominate the world,  subjugate the infidels to Allah, and to bring about the second, and final caliphate.    At least that's what they say. 
They do hate each other almost as much as they hate us though.  That has always slowed them down.  It's been islam vs the rest of the world for a bit over 1400 years now, with no end in sight.

MechAg94

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2017, 10:37:21 PM »
Point proven in anyone was leery of my assertion.  =D

That would be a good way of trying to accomplish the Islamic terrorist goals. And no, it likely would not make Islam disappear. Unfortunately, it's a non-centralized religion. Essentially all clerics are more or less independent, except for... reputation? Kinda, sorta. Some clerics are more respected than others, but there's no official hierarchy. Except when there is.

Unless you're talking about it uniting all Muslims across the world into a single jihad which would then be easily destroyed. Which neither would happen. Unifying all Muslims everywhere won't happen. Ever. Because it's worse than herding cats. And any time anyone claims an enemy can be "easily destroyed", they tend to miss the point that we've lost the majority of significant wars where we're trying to take over someone else's turf. Technology favors defenders over invaders.
On that last, we did actually take their turf easily but I would say we didn't try to destroy them (depending on who you define as them).  It wasn't the turf taking or the basic destruction we failed at.  It was what to after that that began the problems.
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dogmush

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2017, 01:23:51 AM »

They do hate each other almost as much as they hate us though.  That has always slowed them down.  It's been islam vs the rest of the world for a bit over 1400 years now, with no end in sight.

They hate each other WAY more than they hate the west.  That's why they have to work so hard to make the West the "Great Satan" to band together against.  These conversations always seem to gloss over (or miss completely) that while Arabs and Persians are Muslim, they are also strongly culturally Tribal. They are probably even more tribal than they are Muslim.  I don't think Americans get that, because our convenient just doesn't have "tribes" the way SW Aisa does.

Perd Hapley

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2017, 07:08:26 AM »
I don't think Americans get that, because our convenient just doesn't have "tribes" the way SW Aisa does.


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Mannlicher

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2017, 09:11:19 AM »
Dogmush,  the animosity between muslims is not so much culturally driven, as it is the result of the Sunni/Shia issue.  I am sure you are conversant with that schism, and the results for islam, down through the years and still a factor today.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2017, 09:29:09 AM »
Quote
T.E. Lawrence: Sherif Ali. So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people; a silly people; greedy, barbarous, and cruel, as you are.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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dogmush

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Re: What is the goal of Islamic terrorism in the west?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2017, 10:12:25 AM »

Did you mean to say covfefe?  ???

Actually I meant to say continent, but spell check got me.


Quote from: Mannlicher
Dogmush,  the animosity between muslims is not so much culturally driven, as it is the result of the Sunni/Shia issue.  I am sure you are conversant with that schism, and the results for islam, down through the years and still a factor today.

Meh.  Not to discount that schism completely, because it IS still an issue, and is a decent indicator of how countries will lean in conflicts (Iran and the Houthi's for example), but I have seen some epic multi-generational hate between a Sunni Turkomen village and a Sunni Bedouin village.  It don't matter WHAT religion a Kurd is, Arab's don't like him.  You have to watch the ANSF units you're working with because if you get a Tajik unit near a Pashtun unit 50/50 they'll drop everything and try to slaughter each other.

That's what I'm saying.  Islam isn't as big a driver as many westerners and ISIS's own propaganda would have you believe. They TRY to make a big deal out of Islam and the "Evil" west to use it as a mechanism to force the disparate tribes together.

That's one of the goals of the terrorists that is often discounted.  Provide at once a specific enemy (the West) and a path to victory (Join together under Islam) to their fractious followers.