Author Topic: Am I the only one?  (Read 2575 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2007, 10:02:45 AM »
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I don't care what the anti-war crowd's motivation is.  My motivation is that Iraq wasn't nearly the threat that NK or even Saudi Arabia is (the latter is steeped in Wahhabism, the root of the Islamic fundamentalist movement).  Of course, at the time, we were being told that Iraq had or was actively seeking WMD and would be giving them to any terrorist group that wanted them (paraphrasing here), so the invasion seemed logical at the time. 


I know you're not in the moonbat crowd.  I was only saying that no one seems capable of arguing against the war without spouting nonsense.  And unfortunately, you seem to fall into it with that one comment about international good will. 

Wingnut's remarks about triage apply well.  We are under threat from terror cells around the world, who are recruiting and working around the world.  NK or Saudi Arabia may be a bigger threat, but that doesn't mean we attack them first or even attack them frontally at all.  And Wahhabism, if I understand right, is only one strand of Islamic militancy. 



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But for heaven's sake, don't demean our war as some kind of imperialism or some oil conspiracy.  And what if we DO want Iraq's oil?  Is toppling Saddam such a bad way to get it?

Yes.  Toppling any nation in order to take it's resources is evil.  Saddam tried that with Kuwait, remember?


This is like equating Bush with Kim Jonk Il.  Bush is not Saddam.  Kuwait is not Iraq.  If oil were the lone reason for this war, I would oppose it, too.  But the problem with arguing about the reasons for war is that the anti-war side always isolates each reason and explains it away or says it is not sufficient.  But multiple reasons, in the context of our larger effort against terrorism, is far more convincing.  This tactic of the anti-war side is either ignorant or dishonest. 

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And aren't these the same people who claim we should have invaded Saudi Arabia instead?  We know they don't have any oil.
We should have invaded SA first because it's the home of Wahhabism.  No, it's not an easy task and one certain to cause a lot of trouble in the world, but it would at least be targeting the sect that targets us.

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Keep wishing.  Iraq is as decisive and short as we'll get, so long as the world pitches a fit every time we make a move to defend ourselves.
 
The problem with that statement is that I'm not 100% convinced it was a defensive move. 


OK.  But if we can't invade a country like Iraq, which will the world "let" us invade?  Any nation we would have planned to invade would have met with the same opposition. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2007, 10:05:48 AM »
I'm sorry if I'm confusing anyone.  I'm not trying to argue that Iraq was our best move in 2003. 

I guess I could sum up my point of view by saying that the strategic, geopolitical objections are fine with me.  The moral, legal objections are not only stupid, they are outrageous and dangerous to us.  Then there is a mushy middle ground that claims one country or another was our proper target.  But how many of us can claim to have a better grasp on the situation than those in the White House at the time? 
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HankB

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2007, 10:41:28 AM »
Well, Saddam was OUR creature.
So what? He DID do us a favor, by killing a lot of Iranians . . . wiping out an awful lot of a fanatical generation which set back (but sadly, didn't end) their insane islamofascist theocracy.
He was our best buddy when the Soviets were still around.
Again, so what? Joseph Stalin (called "Uncle Joe" by FDR) was our best buddy when Hitler was still around. Times change, alliances shift, and often, ". . . the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Now, don't misunderstand, I am NOT a Bush fan . . . but the sheer, blind hatred of Bush is so deep in some quarters it blinds judgement and obscures reason.

And those who say Bush is the "worst president ever" for getting us into a war on "false pretenses" ought to review their history a bit by Googling "Lyndon Johnson" and "Tonkin Gulf" . . .
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Tallpine

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2007, 01:27:36 PM »
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We're there and we need to finish the job properly.
I'm just curious as to how one finishes a job properly that never should have been started ...?
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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2007, 02:06:51 PM »
My opinion, and keeping in mind that I've pretty much been opposed to the war in Iraq since before we invaded, is that we need to quit pussyfooting around over there. We shouldn't be there, but we are and we're wasting too much time and energy on something that should have taken 2 weeks because we're afraid to actually take control of the country. We're so busy trying to be good international citizens by rebuilding the country (after decimating it) and handing it over to the Iraqis (who are as prepared to run their own country right now as your average 13 year old.)..the country needs someone to take a firm hand, tell the Sunnis and the Shi'ite to knock their crap off, and get the trains running on time. Eventually, someone will do it..the question is, since it obviously won't be us, is how ugly will the person who does accomplish that be?

The people we're fighting over there are no longer Iraqis..they're drawing goons from every part of the world who just want to kill the Great Satan. Those kinds of people don't understand, or want, secular government (which just as an FYI, Iraq had pre-invasion,) they don't understand the idea of freedom, or mercy or anything else condusive to creating a decent place to live..and they mistake our mercy for weakness.

I'd say, personally, we need to reassume control of the country. Things have gone to hell in a handbasket since we turned things over to the Iraqis, which is understandable. We need to run it in a strict, although fair, way, but also not be afraid to take a very hard line against terrorists..and by hardline I mean massive arrests and public executions, after very short trials. We need to make it clear that we'll make repairs to things like oil lines and power lines..once..after that, they stay down and the people can figure out how to make them work without US dollars. We need to create hardships for those who cause problems and give relief to those who don't..and eventually get them to a place where they can lead their own country..but on a realistic basis, not one one imposed by the UN or the touchy-feely crowd.

Fudgieghost

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2007, 02:23:26 PM »
Here's how I see it.  Yes, it's a mess over there. Like someone said here, I don't know what the President and his people knew, but I have to assume it was enough to get them to feel they needed to act.

I don't think Bush is evil, or stupid.  But it seems like today, nobody in politics can be reasonable, human, or civil.  No one can simply say:

"Well, we had good intentions, and it was a noble cause, but it seems like there are enough Iraqis (and others) who are NOT interested in peace and cooperation to make our efforts impossible to bring to fruition.  So we're going to leave.  We're sorry you  were not able to capitalize on the opportunity we afforded the you."   And have the Democrats say, "ok, fair enough, George, you tried, it didn't work.  Hey, let's try to see where we went wrong so that someone in the future, whether they are Democrat or Repulican (we're all Americans for pete's sake) won't make similar mistakes. . "

Yeah, I know, it's pie-in-the-sky, but instead we get this shrill, childish, belligerent behavior, that is only a smoke screen to cover attempts to gather and consolidate political power.

I'm sure most Iraqis' are sick of what is going on in their country---BUT, not enough of them are . . .so the USA CANNOT force those individuals to be. . . . for lack of a better word. . .good.   This seems to be a hard lesson to learn for both conservatives and liberals. 

Liberals tend to think that if they treat people like Kim Il or Saddam, or Hitler respectfully, as if THEY ARE JUST LIKE THEM.  This is their fatal mistake.  Kim Il IS NOT LIKE GEORGE BUSH.  OR BILL CLINTON for that matter.  He is a sadistic, megolomaniac monster who understands two things: power and force.  Some one like him must be crushed--period.  Liberal thinking in geopolitics reminds me of those Sci-Fi movies of the fifties and sixties: The scientist who insist that the alien creature just is trying to communicate, that we have nothing to fear from it, that our challenging it with weaponary is only going to provoke it. . . . and invariably this scientist is the first to be zapped, eaten or blown up by the alien.

Conservatives tend to think that if we just show others how good American democracy, American pop culture, capitalism, individualism, etc is they will cease their CENTURIES old tribal hatreds, and snap to it, becoming budding entrepenuers, grilling burgers on the weekend.  NO--people and cultures don't change that quickly.  Nor should they, in many cases.

Plus, on a philosophical level, I don't think we have the right to impose our system of order (or disorder) on anyone.  Just like with an individual, one's first priority is to make sure what YOU are doing is correct, before you start running around trying to tell everyone else what to do. . .

I feel bad for the Bush admin.  I can't really say what errors they made (AND NO CAN WITHOUT ACCESS TO THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE AT 'TOP SECRET' LEVEL),  but I feel that they tried to do something right.  But it didn't work out.  Perhaps they shouldn't have tried, but I can't make that determination without having all the facts.  I don't think they went in to Iraq for oil, or for Halliburton, or to 'distract' us, or any of those silly accusatory things that the professional complainers go on about.

So, that's my feelings. . . .  I DO NOT feel that our soldiers died in vain.  They were, and are, doing a noble job under difficult conditions--as soldiers have done for eons.  Just because a war or cause is lost, or doesn't work out they way it was envisioned, does not lessen the efforts by those who partook in it, whether they live or die.  The experience gained by our soldiers is invalueable--both as individuals and as soldiers. 

grampster

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2007, 02:42:20 PM »
Well said, Fudgieghost.
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MechAg94

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2007, 02:49:32 PM »
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Well, for my part I am sick and tired of the fact that anyone who dares disagree with the annointed Bush's foreign policy is immediately labeled a liberal, leftist, communist, America-hater, etc etc etc ................... angry
I see people complain about this far more than I actually see it done. 

I agree with above, there was no 911 good will.  They just suppressed their hatred temporarily since they knew they would look like an ass if they didn't cool it a little while. 

I actually agree with fistful.  I can see opposing war, but most of the arguments are so screwed up, emotional, illogical, and historically revisionist that it makes me want to support the war more than ever. 

Bush could solve world hunger, cure cancer, and learn to pronounce nuclear and people would still hate him.  He ain't the best President, but he is far, far short of the worst.   
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MechAg94

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2007, 02:52:03 PM »
Mention of LBJ reminded me that I turned on The Right Stuff yesterday.  I was able to see that one part where LBJ was trying to get in to interview John Glenn's wife.  Very funny and not at all flattering of the man. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2007, 03:02:26 PM »
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Conservatives tend to think that if we just show others how good American democracy, American pop culture, capitalism, individualism, etc is they will cease their CENTURIES old tribal hatreds, and snap to it, becoming budding entrepenuers, grilling burgers on the weekend.  NO--people and cultures don't change that quickly.  Nor should they, in many cases.
Well, I think a little freedom, opportunity, and commerce can change a society, but it does take generations to happen.  We didn't get where we are over night, not by a long shot. 

Also, the US is partly special in that many of the people here is descended from immigrants who left family, tribes, and other attachments behind to come to a new land. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Fudgieghost

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2007, 03:46:10 PM »
MechAg: yes, you make good points.  We are a bit unique here for the reasons you stated.  I guess I was trying to say that attempting to bring that to other lands and cultures can be. . . . difficult at best, and may not even be the right thing to do----we may end up making more of a mess than anything else.

As you said, America has been the magnet for dymanic people from all over the world, and from all walks of life.  Why is that?  Because people worked hard at making this country a good place to live.   

It's like if you admire or respect someone.  You think, "I'd like to be like that".  That is more effective than someone coming up to you and saying, "Hey, I'm pretty successful, nice guy, you should be like me, do things my way."  One's first reaction is "Oh yeah, p%9# off!".  As an individual, as a  country we should continue trying to excel, improve, correct ourselves first. 

Does this mean we never help others?  Of course not, that would not be in line with being the best we could be, whether you're talking about individuals or countries. 

We have allies and we should help when and where it is prudent, appropriate and fitting, just as we would not hesitate to help a friend.

And we should not apologize for looking after our interests, and taking action when we feel our country is threatened.  This is on par with self-defense, and I cannot understand some of our citizens who seem to feel we should not defend ourselves, but that's another thread. . .

By doing these things, within our own sphere first, others may look to us, and say, "Hey, we should try to be like that", and they can then work in their own countries, and in ways that are appropriate for that country and culture. . . .or maybe they decide to come here (hopefully legally!) so they can become a part of something they have admired.  I think this would be preferable, and more importantly, more effective than what sometimes takes place as foreign policy. . .

griz

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2007, 04:01:57 PM »
Fistful, I wasn't trying to compare President Bush to KJI.  I am just saying that if you are alienated from the whole neighborhood, yet they sort of get along with each other, maybe it's you who are the problem.

As for the rest, it amazes me that you start off by saying you aren't sure about the war, specifically "I don't know whether the Iraq war was a good idea."  Then you go on to say that moral or legal objections are stupid, that invading a country to take their oil might not be so bad, and whatever the reason it must have been a good one.  Sounds as if you are sure it was a good idea.  This sums it up:

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But if we can't invade a country like Iraq, which will the world "let" us invade?

How about NOT invading anybody who isn't threatening us?  Would that be so bad?
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The Rabbi

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2007, 05:01:12 PM »
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But if we can't invade a country like Iraq, which will the world "let" us invade?

How about NOT invading anybody who isn't threatening us?  Would that be so bad?


At what point is a country threatening us?  When they are giving the launch order?  By then it is too late.  What constitutes a threat?  Some would say Cuba wasnt a threat in 1962.  It obviously was even though they werent massing for an invasion.
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Tallpine

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2007, 08:16:46 PM »
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Well, for my part I am sick and tired of the fact that anyone who dares disagree with the annointed Bush's foreign policy is immediately labeled a liberal, leftist, communist, America-hater, etc etc etc ................... angry
I see people complain about this far more than I actually see it done.

Well, it almost always happens here or on THR anytime I mention that I might not be 100% in support of Bush's War in Iraq  rolleyes
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2007, 02:57:36 AM »
griz,

When I speak about the legal objections, I'm talking about the notion that the war is "illegal," in terms of there being some international legal system that is supposed to approve wars.  There isn't.  I would guess there are some internal laws, such as our Constitution that we routinely break in these small wars.  That should be corrected, but I don't know that the Iraq war is unique in that respect.  According to American principles of limited government and avoiding foreign entaglement, I don't think Saddam's barbarisms to his own people justified our government's involvement, if there were no other factors.  But the rest of the world has no say in that.  

When I speak about moral objections, I'm talking about the notion that the war was "unjust."  It was patently just.  Strictly speaking, we didn't even go to war with Iraq.  We put down its dictator and tried to help the country form a new government.  There is no conceivable way we wronged Iraq as far as toppling its government is concerned.  That is why the suggestion that we are responsible for the murder of vast numbers of Iraqis chokes me with rage.  

On these aspects of the war I am firm.  As I said above:
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The strategic, geopolitical objections are fine with me.  The moral, legal objections are not only stupid, they are outrageous and dangerous to us.
Iraq was clearly a valid and moral option for us and on that my mind is clear.  My ambivelance is about whether we should have taken that option.  I lean toward the pro-war position, but I have doubts.  I have severe doubts about the anti-war arguments, because so many of them are just wrong-headed.

 
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invading a country to take their oil might not be so bad
 It might not, if it means freeing them from someone like Saddam.  Anyone should be able to see that.  But is oil merely about making money?  No, it's about being independent of the nations that produce terrorists.  Oil stockpiles in American hands is certainly better than in Middle-Eastern hands.  

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whatever the reason it must have been a good one.
Nope, didn't say that.

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How about NOT invading anybody who isn't threatening us?
 The entire Middle East is the threat.  Can you not acknowledge that?  As Condi Rice put it, the "tit for tat" reprisal of the past twenty years was not working for us.  The whole region must be dealt with.  That doesn't mean we invade every corner of the Mid-East.  It doesn't mean that every Mid-East state has to be decapitated.  It does mean that rogue or terrorism-complicit states are options for military action. The question is not whether we have some "right" to invade Iraq, it is whether Iraq was the right place to go, strategically.

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Fistful, I wasn't trying to compare President Bush to KJI.  I am just saying that if you are alienated from the whole neighborhood, yet they sort of get along with each other, maybe it's you who are the problem.
 You were trying and you did.  You could draw the same comparison between the Unabomber and Martin Luther King, Jr.  They both alienated themselves from the majority of the country.  Maybe MLK was the problem.   rolleyes
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griz

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2007, 05:16:11 AM »
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You were trying and you did.

Sorry if you took it that way, but if you don't believe me when I say that wasn't what I was trying to do, well I'm though with this.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2007, 06:26:39 AM »
Probably for the best, as we were not communicating very well. 
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cosine

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Re: Am I the only one?
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2007, 10:05:41 AM »
Back on the original topic... no, fistful, you are not the only one.
Andy