Author Topic: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache  (Read 3352 times)

Brad Johnson

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Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« on: January 04, 2007, 10:40:57 AM »
Over the weekend I could a bunch of stuff on TV - mostly from Discovery, History, TLC, etc.  I know they are getting ready for the total switchover to HD by originiating their programming in HD.  The bars at the top and bottom of the screen on a 4:3 TV are testament to that.  However, I've also noticed an annoying tendency for them to take old TV or film clips and morph them to fit the widescreen format, making the picture look squished and odd.  To me it's the same thing as people who buy a widescreen TV and then force it to morph 4:3 programming to fill the screen.  Gives me a headache.

I know, I know... for everyone like me there's a hundred people who think that you have to fill the screen with the picture or somehow you are being "cheated" out of part of the programming.  Heck, my parents don't even like watching a widescreen movie with me.  They think that part of the picture has been cut off.  No amount of explanation will convince them that the pan & scan versions they buy are actually the vids with mission picture info.

Just had to vent a bit.  I watched a Foster Brooks bit on YouTube and it was set to the wrong aspect ratio, making everything look artificially bloated.  Too bad, too.  It was a good bit (the same one I linked to APS a few weeks ago).

Brad
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"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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zahc

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2007, 10:44:12 AM »
Oh, I  feel your pain. Trying to explain dynamic range compression in music has a similar effect.
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brimic

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2007, 04:13:36 PM »
I need to watch everything in its proper aspect ratio- my wife insists on the screen being filled. We sometimes get on eachother's nerves over this one.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2007, 09:43:25 PM »
I'll find that out tomorrow.  They're delivering our big-screen plasma HDTV, and I noticed a distinct dearth of HD channel feeds in Charter cable territory here.  Maybe a dozen or so...
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TarpleyG

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2007, 03:49:28 AM »
I need to watch everything in its proper aspect ratio- my wife insists on the screen being filled. We sometimes get on eachother's nerves over this one.
My BIL and I have the same size set (different manufacturers though) and the same cable provider.  He absolutely insists on having all the 4:3 stuff fill the screen.  I hate it.  My FIL is always asking why so-and-so looks so fat.  "For the 1000th time....."--he'll never get it.

Greg

CatsDieNow

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2007, 06:15:43 AM »
I had this arguement weekly with the husband - until the Discovery channel (I think it was) had a show about aspect ratios and pan and scan.  Now he will drop a fullscreen DVD box like a hot potato.  Much better...   grin

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2007, 07:23:03 AM »
I don't get aspect ratios either.  What good is my 42" widescreen plasma tv if I have to look at black bars on the top & bottom?  OTH, if I fill the screen (with "partial zoom"), then stuff is cut off at the bottom.

Huh??

Brad Johnson

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2007, 07:33:32 AM »
I don't get aspect ratios either.  What good is my 42" widescreen plasma tv if I have to look at black bars on the top & bottom?  OTH, if I fill the screen (with "partial zoom"), then stuff is cut off at the bottom.

Huh??

Aspect ratios can be boiled down to two formats widescreen (sometimes called 16:9) and standard 4:3.  The numbers represent the ratio between screen width and height.  A standard TV is 4 units wide and 3 units tall.  Widescreen 16:9 units are 16 units wide and 9 units tall.  A standard screen pic, being slightly more square, will be shown on a widescreen with bars at the sides (square pic on a rectangular screen).  To show a widescreen movie or program on a standard set, the pic will have bars at the top and bottom (wide pic on a square screen).

If you have bars at the top and bottom of a widescreen TV then the aspect ratio is set to 4:3 (standard TV) on either your DVD player or your cable/satellite box (whichever is producing the distorted pic).  Give us a little more info and we'll get you "squared" away.  grin

Here, Wiki has a pretty good entry on it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_%28image%29

Brad
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"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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zahc

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2007, 08:54:24 AM »
Actually, hollywood movies generally show black bars even on widescreen TVs, because they tend to be 2.35:1 instead of 16:9.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2007, 09:13:48 AM »
Playing with this new Hitachi 42" plasma today...

One of the 4:3 aspect ratio settings completely fills the screen, no black bars, and no zoom.  (I can zoom in for a couple additional settings)

When switching back and forth between the full-screen 4:3 setting and the 16:9 setting, I don't see a lot of difference in the vertical squashing effect.  What am I missing?

Also, I haven't really seen any HDTV images yet, partially I suppose because of my cable box.  When plugging in my Stevie Ray Vaughan Austin City Limits concert DVD, I don't see an appreciable difference in picture resolution.

So that begs the question, are all DVDs recorded in higher resolution, or is there some marking that lets me know I'm in for a treat or not? 
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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zahc

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2007, 09:17:00 AM »
DVDs are not high-definition. The only high definition content is from your cable (possibly 1080i), and from a high-definition media such as Bluray, which is currently the only way to get 'real' 1080p high definition.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2007, 10:25:49 AM »
Playing with this new Hitachi 42" plasma today...

One of the 4:3 aspect ratio settings completely fills the screen, no black bars, and no zoom.  (I can zoom in for a couple additional settings)

When switching back and forth between the full-screen 4:3 setting and the 16:9 setting, I don't see a lot of difference in the vertical squashing effect.  What am I missing?

Also, I haven't really seen any HDTV images yet, partially I suppose because of my cable box.  When plugging in my Stevie Ray Vaughan Austin City Limits concert DVD, I don't see an appreciable difference in picture resolution.

So that begs the question, are all DVDs recorded in higher resolution, or is there some marking that lets me know I'm in for a treat or not? 

Like zahc said, DVD's are not high def.  The only true high-def images are from the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD units playing HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs.  Your cable signal isn't high-def either, that is unless you have the high-def programming package.  If I recall, DVD's are 525 lines of horizontal resolutoin (old TV images were 400, again, if memory serves).  Standard def DVDs will be noticeably better on high-def sets, but over an old-style TV that could only display 400 lines.

Some TV's, and I think HItachi is one, have a resolution upconverter that will take a standard-def signal and upconvert it to high-def for use by the TV.  It doesn't increase the picture to an actual high-def quality, but it does ensure that you are seeing the most pristine image possible from your standard-def source.  The latest generation of DVDs, especially those digitally filmed or encoded directly from a digital source (like Pixar's stuff), will benefit the most from this upconversion.

If one of the 4:3 settings fills the screen with no zoom then the TV is morphing the 4:3 signal to fill your 16:9 screen (stretching it).  At that setting you should see some distortion of the picture (everone looks strangly bloated or "wide").  If you see no difference between the two settings in terms of distorted picture, then the TV is zooming enough to fill the screen but the effect may just not be as noticeable on that particular program.

The real key is to have your cable box, DVD, and any other video sources set to properly encode the signal to your 16:9 television (and these are actually pretty critical).  Once those settings are correct, any other adjustments that need to be made can be accomplished by thumbing through the aspect ratio settings on the TV.

Also, make sure you are using the best possible connection between the video sources and the TV.  At the very least you should be using the base band outputs (video, audio right, audio left).  If your sources have the capabilty of going comonent (I think they are labeled Y, Pa, and Pb), by all means use them.  If your DVD player is labeled "Progressive Scan" it will have these type outputs.  Just be sure to use cables shielded for video.  Cables shielded for audio can allow signal interference from other RF sources and cause some image issues.  Audio signals tend to be less prone to interference so they may not be fully shielded (cost savings).  The cables don't have to be high-zoot mega-dollar stuff, just make sure it says "video" and appears to be a decent build quality with heavy insulating jacket and metal ends with good strain reliefs.  Count on paying at least $10-$12 per cable for something decent, or $25 or so for a combo Y/Pa/Pb cable (where all three conductors are video shielded).

Brad
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"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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Vodka7

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2007, 10:52:51 AM »
Quote
If your sources have the capabilty of going comonent (I think they are labeled Y, Pa, and Pb), by all means use them.

One little addendum to that:

I used to work at a cable company, and you would not *believe* the number of people who made the following two mistakes:

1) Only plugging in the RGB (properly called composite, but half the time I get that confused with component so I just call them by the colors now) cables and wondering why they had no sound.  The RGB cables are just video--you still need the old school red and white cables (RCA/component) going into the sound inputs on your TV too (and if you have multiple inputs, make sure RGB is Video1 and RCA is Audio1)
2) Plugging in all five cables, but switching the two red ones.  For some reason, no one in any of the companies designing this format realized that there was already a red cable used for something else.  Like Brad said, usually the RGB cables are shielded, so they will look and feel a little beefier than the audio cables.  Put the beefy red one in the video slot, and the skinny red one in the audio slot.  Otherwise you're going to hear nasty buzzy sound any time you get a scene with a lot of red on the TV (I have to admit I made this mistake myself the first time I plugged in my Xbox 360.)

Brad Johnson

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2007, 10:59:23 AM »

Quote
(I have to admit I made this mistake myself the first time I plugged in my Xbox 360.)

Hate to say it, but so did I when I bought my new system and first progressive scan player a couple years ago.

Brad
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"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2007, 11:56:14 AM »
Hey Gewehr,

Did a little digging on the Hitachi web site.  Found this among the feature descriptions of their TV's

Quote
4:3 Expanded Mode for All TV Signals
An exclusive technique is employed to fill the widescreen with conventional 4:3 programming while minimizing perceptible distortion.

Looks like that's probably the reason you aren't seeing much of a change in the  pic when dialing through the 4:3 mode settings.

You still need to check all your components - DVD, cable box, etc. - and make sure the TV output is set to 16:9.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

brimic

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2007, 04:41:47 PM »
Quote
Also, I haven't really seen any HDTV images yet, partially I suppose because of my cable box.

If you have Charter and your set has a built in HD tuner, try flipping through the channels far beyond where the last one comes in. I have Charter extended basic service which goes up to about channel 78 in my area. My wife was palying around with the remote awhile back and found that the broadcast stations were something like 103-105 and PBS has 2 HD channels in that neighborhood also. When you get HD programming on your plasma, you'll know it immediatly- it looks so real that its freaky.
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MechAg94

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2007, 05:10:44 PM »
Hmmmmmmmm......ding dongs.... grin
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caseydog

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2007, 08:21:07 PM »
Brad , I feel your pain , the cable here has 1 hi def channel that is still pillarboxed Huh? What the hell ? Standard def channels have so much stretching and smooshing going on , hows about you guys broadcast what your source is created in and let me decide if I want my TV to stretch it with it's internal scaler !!

Gewehr, there are so many variables it can make your temples thump when you first start exploring it , plus now everything is in a state of flux . If your DVD has component outs , by all means get the cables and use them , much better picture , remember to go into the players setup and set it for "progressive" and 16:9 screen. For broadcast , if you have a cable box the same idea applies , use component if available or even HDMI when you get an HD cable box , in the interim you can usually hook up the cable straight from the wall to the TV and get some free over the cable HD ( if your set has a QAM tuner) or depending where you are maybe a small antenna may be an option (if your locals have stepped up to hi-def.)

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Ray
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2007, 12:49:31 PM »

Quote
the cable here has 1 hi def channel that is still pillarboxed  What the hell ?


That means the channel may be broadcasting in hi-def, but the program you are seeing probably originated in standard def (4:3).  Hey, at least they are pillarboxing it instead of morphing it to fit the screen!

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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Gewehr98

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2007, 04:25:56 PM »
My head already hurts, guys, but at least I'm getting an education, so I appreciate the help!

I have the Hitachi 42HDS69 (I *wish* I could have bought the 55HDS69!), and am running everything through a Philips prioritized auto-switching box for now, so I can play DVD/VCR/Charter Digital Cable box/Linksys MP3 player without switching imputs, using the old yellow/red/white RCA cables.  It also allows me to record things with my ancient (pre-chip) MCS Hi-Fi VCR, and pipe audio through my Yamaha DSP 1000 Dolby Digital Sound Field Processor, and then out to a 4 channel Yamaha Power Amp, and two more channels in the front end through my vacuum tube Jolida 502A and out to my monster ESS/Heil Air Motion Transformers.  All the interconnects are premium low-oxygen copper units, better, cheaper, and not so silly as Monster Cable's hype.

The array of inputs and outputs on the back and side of the Hitachi is simply bewildering. My stepsons were the first to exclaim that they were going to plug in their X-Box 360.  I laid out a couple ground rules right then and there. Wink

Heck, it's all new to me compared to the 32" Sony Trinitron it replaced.  Day/Night settings?  Locks?  Channel Manager?  I can order a card that replaces the Charter box?

Reading the manual, it appears the only way I can feed HDTV content into the Hitachi is either the HDMI or Y/Pa/Pb cable, none of which are on my Charter Digital Cable box, so I'll be making a call, subscribing, and trading boxes with them to take advantage of the set's capabilities.

The 4:3 aspect I've been watching is called "4:3 Expanded" by Hitachi, but I notice less people squashing (ala' Phantasm?) than the 16:9 setting.

Something that surprised me was watching a DVD the other night, "V - For Vendetta", and it was letterboxed, the only way to get it to fill the screen on the top and bottom was zooming in, which clipped right and left edges.  So we left it letterboxed, I didn't know if it was something my Zenith DVD player could adjust or not, or simply a function of the recorded program content. 





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caseydog

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2007, 05:21:08 PM »
Quote
My stepsons were the first to exclaim that they were going to plug in their X-Box 360.  I laid out a couple ground rules right then and there.
 
With a new plasma panel *if* they do play the games you should back down the brightness and contrast significantly , especially for the first 200 hours or so until the panel is "broken in" . Avoid leaving static images on the screen like game or DVD menus for extended periods. Gaming will show you some image retention on plasmas , usually for 15 - 30 minutes , that is pretty much normal and not considered a harm to the panel.

Quote
Day/Night settings?
just some preset brightness/contrast settings. Also note that the inputs all retain specific user settings , for instance you can set component 1 for 85 contrast and 70 brightness and not affect component 2 at all.

Quote
I can order a card that replaces the Charter box?
Yup , but you'll lose that special Guide channel functionality and the ability to order Pay Per View programs with a button. I like the extra functionality of the cablebox so I upgraded mine.

Quote
Something that surprised me was watching a DVD the other night, "V - For Vendetta", and it was letterboxed, the only way to get it to fill the screen on the top and bottom was zooming in, which clipped right and left edges.  So we left it letterboxed, I didn't know if it was something my Zenith DVD player could adjust or not, or simply a function of the recorded program content.
Many movies are created in 2.35:1 which is a cinema format and doesn't match up to 16:9 TV (which is about 1.79:1), it's all about the "directors vision" of how they want you to see the film , 2.35:1 will letterbox on a 16:9 tv , if you read the fine print on the bottom of the back cover it usually tells you the aspect ratio , something else I never noticed till i got a widescreen ...

Ray
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Vodka7

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2007, 06:16:20 PM »
I can order a card that replaces the Charter box?

That's a cable card, and you can't buy one, but you can rent one (if Charter has them, not everyone does.)  A few notes on it: it's one way only, so you lose all interactive features on the box--the channel guide and PPV/VOD access.  Basically, it will be like back in ye olden days when you could just plug the wire from the wall straight into the back of the TV and flip through channels manually.  Except it supports digital channels and HD channels.

It's usually a signifigantly cheaper rate than a cable box, but keep one thing in mind--cable companies hate cable card users and will do everything in their power to make it inconvenient for you to actually get one.  They hate customers who can't order their high profit things like PPV and SVOD, and will make your life hell trying to get an installation for a CableCard.  (And yes, they *will* make you schedule an appointment so a tech can come to your home and spend about two minutes plugging the card in the back of your TV and setting it up.  And they will charge you for the installation visit.  They don't mail them out and you can't pick them up at the stores, assuming your company even has a store near you.)

Also, the documentation the CableCard manufacturers give cable companies is ridiculous.  At my old company, the troubleshooting we were provided straight from the manufacturer went something like this:

-Does it work?
-It should work.
-Does it work?
-Send a tech with a replacement part.

It even included a script for running the customer through "rebooting" the CableCard, along with full disclosure that there is no way to reboot a CableCard and that the script was just to calm the customer down.  We were supposed to have you remove the CC from the TV for 30 seconds just because people are used to doing so on their cable modems and cable boxes, but it doesn't do a damn thing for the CC.  If it's broke, you're gonna have to schedule an appointment.

All those things said, I would highly recommend one as a second set solution--something for the bedroom, kitchen, or kids, but not for the primary TV.  Get an HD box.  Also, check to see if they're going to send you HD cables.  At my company, we sent out the RGB/composite cables along with component cables for sound, but you had to buy the HDMI cord yourself.  Also, some companies have multiple boxes depending on the input you need.  We had a huge stock of RGB HD boxes and would send those out unless a customer specifically requested an HDMI box because we had a lot less of those.

zahc

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2007, 06:47:12 PM »
Quote
Something that surprised me was watching a DVD the other night, "V - For Vendetta", and it was letterboxed, the only way to get it to fill the screen on the top and bottom was zooming in, which clipped right and left edges.  So we left it letterboxed, I didn't know if it was something my Zenith DVD player could adjust or not, or simply a function of the recorded program content.

Once again:

Most properly released hollywood movies will exhibit letterboxing EVEN WITH WIDESCREEN TVs. This is because movies are shot in even 'widerscreen'. There is nothing you can do about it. It is indeed a function of the recorded program content.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2007, 05:41:48 PM »
Getting closer to being proficient with the new HD plasma TV.

When using the Input 3 and Input 4 component video feeds into the set, namely from my HD cable box and DVD player, I couldn't monitor the sound and feed it into my 6-channel Yamaha DSP-1, which branches the signal out to the Jolida vacuum tube front end and Yamaha 4-channel Dolby Surround and effects system.  I noticed that the Hitachi has a digital optical audio out via Toslink, but the Monitor Out RCA jacks don't function on digital TV signals. Bummer, because I've really grown fond of the HD local and cable channels, as well as watching DVDs via the component video feed. 

So I had to improvise, and come up with a way to feed the audio signal back out to my 6-channel sound system.  What good is a nice 42" HD plasma TV if you can't hear all of what's playing on Discovery HD Theater?  Cheesy

So I ended up with a stand-alone Digital-to-Analog converter, which takes the fiber optic audio feed from the Hitachi plasma TV, then spits out the left and right RCA analog audio to the input of the Yamaha DSP-1, which decodes the Dolby signal and sends 6 channels to their respective amplifiers and speakers. 


Boy, those DAC units aren't cheap!  But tonight, when I got all the ugly wires tied up and hidden, then fired up everything, it was great!  I watched the Lord of War DVD, then viewed some Discovery HD Theater, and my wife is watching the Paint Your Wagon DVD right now. 

Pictures of the setup maybe tomorrow.  I have to go listen to Clint Eastwood sing right now.

And now I see BlueRay DVD technology is being pushed.  Oy, veh!  Wink
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RocketMan

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Re: Aspect ratio dingdongs - gives me a headache
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2007, 07:33:53 PM »
High Tech, High Def envy in RocketMan's launch facility tonight.   angry
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