Author Topic: New Tax Plan  (Read 2105 times)

Ben

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New Tax Plan
« on: September 29, 2017, 09:01:58 AM »
What do you guys think of it so far? I need to see the income brackets before I give it two thumbs up, but currently I give it one thumb up.

I've always been in favor of lowering our ridiculous corporate taxes, and the "repatriation tax" seems like a fair balance that should satisfy both Rs and Ds (though Ds are screaming about it being too low). Otherwise the corporate/business/small business stuff looks fair when you look at it as part of the overall plan. It seems like a lot of complainers are just picking certain parts as "favoring the rich" without looking at other parts that balance things out.

As far as personal taxes (again, depending on what the income brackets are), I think I could live with that as well. I saw Schumer, et. al. are going off on the new 12% lowest rate versus the current 10%. However, it seems to me that is disingenuous. More accurately, the lowest rate is 0% (just as now) but given the doubling of the standard deduction, more people will qualify for 0%, just as more people will drop from 25% to 12% using just the new standard deduction.

I'm also fine with eliminating the state and local tax deduction even living (for now) in high tax CA. This is another area where progressives are screaming about "penalizing the poor and middle class". I would submit that if anything, it penalizes the wealthy. Most of these high tax states are progressively taxed. In CA, if you make $50K, you might pay around $1700 in state taxes. At $100K, you pay ~$6500.

So if you're eliminating the state tax deduction, all you're doing at the $50K level is changing (not counting anything else) AGI from $50K to $48.3K. The left is pushing a narrative (which is already a common misconception by many, many people who don't understand taxes) that you're losing $1700 out of your pocket versus only changing your AGI by $1700, which might not affect your taxes owed by much of anything. At the very high income levels though, the deduction could in fact knock you into a lower tax bracket. At $500K in CA, the tax is ~$47,500. So again, if anything, removing the state deduction does not help "the rich and penalize the middle class" but potentially hurts the wealthy and has little effect on the middle class. The opposite of the left's narrative. I saw that the current tax code keeps over $100 billion of CA taxpayer money out of the fed's coffers, so the new plan would, mostly via the wealthy in CA, bring in an extra $100 billion into the fed coffers. Add in the other high tax states, which I believe are almost all progressively taxed to penalize the wealthy, and that money adds up quickly.

Anyway, I still want to see the tax brackets, and also want to see what they're doing with dividends and capital gains (currently if your AGI is <$48K, you pay zero taxes on dividends and capital gains). I know they want to increase those taxes on the Buffets and Zuckerbergs, but I'm hoping that they don't do a blanket increase across all income brackets. Many people depend on the dividend and capital gain income for their retirement.
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K Frame

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 09:53:45 AM »
I give it a sideways thumb.

Has the potential to increase my taxes.
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MikeB

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2017, 10:03:11 AM »
If I understand it correctly I would pay a bit more, slightly less, or have it be more or less a wash for me. We have very high property taxes in PA, especially where i live. If I can't deduct that, but the standard deduction is doubled and I might go to a lower tax bracket I will probably pay slightly less or have it be a wash. Otherwise I will probably pay a little more in total taxes.

I'm not sure personally I can approve completely when it doesn't actually help lower my burden; but I understand the argument around the removal of deductions on state/local taxes. Now of course what exactly this whole thing will look like is not being reported very well as far as I can tell; and more importantly this is just a blueprint from the Trump administration. This will change in congress of course. Overall I would support as at least a better situation overall vs. me personally than the current setup.

Ben

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2017, 10:08:23 AM »
Now of course what exactly this whole thing will look like is not being reported very well as far as I can tell; and more importantly this is just a blueprint from the Trump administration. This will change in congress of course. Overall I would support as at least a better situation overall vs. me personally than the current setup.

That will certainly be the kicker on this. It could easily be turned into a monster by either the Rs or the Ds. It already seems to be only 50/50 if they will get the state tax elimination through, which as far as I understand it, is a lynch pin to making many other things in it work. All it will take is McCain and a couple of other "conservatives" in the Senate to turn it into a plan that Obama would have approved of.
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PEfarmer

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2017, 02:09:25 PM »
I see some ups and downs.  I like the increase in standard deduction, though coupled with the elimination of personal exemptions, it's almost exactly a wash for my typical me, wife and 2 kids married filing jointly family.  For families with lots of kids, it's a big kick in the jimmy.  For dinks, it's a boon.  I generally object to attempting to legislate behavior through the tax code, so I guess getting rid of that encouragement to have kids is ok with me, but it is questionable.  Even though it would have serious ripple effects, I'd actually like to see the home interest deduction eliminated, again to discourage legislation through taxation.  Also, anything that makes the realtors mafia squeal makes me smile, but that's just my personal prejudice.  

In terms of corporate taxes, lowering the rate is a Very. Good. Thing.  On the 25% rate for pass-through entities, I've read that they may force a certain (read high) percentage of that income through the wage income category to include fica and the wage-rate tax brackets.  I'm not sure yet what I think about that.

I was seriously annoyed about reading a GOP senator's comments last night saying that the percentage of people paying 0% would actually increase.  That just pisses me off.  I think it's critical that everybody have some connection to the pain of paying for the government that they vote for.

Firethorn

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2017, 02:47:35 PM »
If they eliminate personal exemptions, that wipes out a lot of the benefit of doubling the deduction.

Also, keep in mind that this will make it so that even more of the middle class won't be able to itemize and get a tax break.  A great deal of saved effort, but it means that things like the home mortgage and charitable giving deductions will be even more for rich people.

The standard deduction, which goes away if you itemize, just isn't as good of a deal for the common person as exemptions.

just Warren

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2017, 08:25:29 PM »
Just get rid of all corp taxes entirely.

Much of the money that isn't taxed will end up as personal income and can be taxed then.

And given how many jobs would be created and the increase in wages that would follow I doubt the feds would lose much.
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Firethorn

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2017, 05:45:40 AM »
Just get rid of all corp taxes entirely.

Much of the money that isn't taxed will end up as personal income and can be taxed then.

And given how many jobs would be created and the increase in wages that would follow I doubt the feds would lose much.

That would prioritize corporations that go for a steady profit and pay dividends.  I approve.

But it will never happen because you can't offer tax breaks to mold corporate spending like they want to do, just like with personal income tax.

zahc

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2017, 09:19:19 AM »
mortgage interest deduction is a blatant handout to the banks. Any plan that doesn't kill it is window dressing.
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grampster

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2017, 11:30:17 AM »
As a middle class someone who is retired and who doesn't itemize anymore using the short form, it appears to be beneficial.  I have no idea whether this was an accurate or over-simplistic way of doing so, I looked at my tax return for last year and my tax was about 14% of my taxable income.   So I deducted another 12,000 from my taxable income and multiplied that by 15% and it knocked about $2000.00 off the tax.   
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Hawkmoon

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2017, 11:51:48 AM »

I was seriously annoyed about reading a GOP senator's comments last night saying that the percentage of people paying 0% would actually increase.  That just pisses me off.  I think it's critical that everybody have some connection to the pain of paying for the government that they vote for.

I think this is crucial. As long as there is a zero percent possibility, you'll have people resisting moving up the scale because they don't want to start paying taxes. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of people in this country who don't understand that if you're paying ten percent in taxes, for every additional dollar you earn you get to keep 90 cents. So, in order to avoid paying that ten cents to the government, they'd rather give up the 90 cents they could keep. Because TAXES!

This was making the rounds a number of years ago. I see a copy (or version) has made it to the Internet:

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Ben

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2017, 12:00:54 PM »

I was seriously annoyed about reading a GOP senator's comments last night saying that the percentage of people paying 0% would actually increase.  That just pisses me off.  I think it's critical that everybody have some connection to the pain of paying for the government that they vote for.

I agree with that. Quite a few of us here support some version of the following: EVERYONE pays taxes, even if they're only writing a check for $100, just to have skin in the game. Also some version of voting day being the day after tax day.

Though there's no way it would ever work, my theoretical wish is that taxes aren't taken out of payroll for those who have employers, and everyone has to write some ginormous check on April 14th instead of believing money that the IRS has taken from them throughout the year in little chunks and returns to them is a "refund" versus a return of their own damn money. Then of course, vote the next day.
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Fly320s

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2017, 12:22:20 PM »
Two thumbs down from me.  /Roger Ebert

Every single person living in the US needs to pay into the system and since I dislike progressive tax systems, everyone needs to pay 15% of their income.  No deductions, no exceptions.

Make corporate tax rates 10%, also no deductions, no exceptions, no tax-free charities. 
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Ben

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2017, 12:57:46 PM »
Two thumbs down from me.  /Roger Ebert

Every single person living in the US needs to pay into the system and since I dislike progressive tax systems, everyone needs to pay 15% of their income.  No deductions, no exceptions.

Make corporate tax rates 10%, also no deductions, no exceptions, no tax-free charities. 

I would have said 10%, but this will never happen in the US as we know it. The people who can't do math outnumber the people who can. The people who believe anyone who make more than they do is "rich" and therefore should pay "more" outnumber the people who understand that 10% of $50K is $5K and 10% of $1 million is $100K.

The best we can hope for is a simplified system that minimizes looters and doesn't overly penalize producers. I don't think we'll ever see the "postcard sized" tax forms that Congress touts, at least not for anyone that does more than rent their home and work for someone.
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Fly320s

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Re: New Tax Plan
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2017, 08:07:10 PM »
I would have said 10%, but this will never happen in the US as we know it. The people who can't do math outnumber the people who can. The people who believe anyone who make more than they do is "rich" and therefore should pay "more" outnumber the people who understand that 10% of $50K is $5K and 10% of $1 million is $100K.

The best we can hope for is a simplified system that minimizes looters and doesn't overly penalize producers. I don't think we'll ever see the "postcard sized" tax forms that Congress touts, at least not for anyone that does more than rent their home and work for someone.

I completely agree, but much like buying a lottery ticket, I can dream.
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