Vegas strip mass shooting!

[BobR]

We expect to see legislation introduced to ban bump stocks at the next session of the Washington Legislature.

God forbid those d-bags in Olympia allow a good tragedy go to waste. I expect another run at banning "assault weapons" in WA also. They won't quit until everyone who opposes it moves out of state and they can run it through (if only I were kidding :(  ).


bob

[Viking]

Removed because I paranoia-posted.

[French G.]

Back on the suppressor thing. I do not know if it would have mattered in this case, only missing on what the not 45th president doesn't know. In a sustained firing situation the shooter may be located by visible muzzle blast which a can will large manage. So it could be an advantage sometime, not that senator Clinton would know that.

Counterfire? Who said pistols, not me. You imagine that in a large town like that there are patrol rifles that have a published 500yd max effective range and hopefully an optic. Not ideal, but if potentially hundreds of people are getting shot any responders with rifles have no real good options beyond hose down where the flash comes from. Are there other hotel rooms? Sure are. Less people there than are dying with you, first shot from a 5.56 likely breaks up on hitting an unbroken window and firing at an upward angle you will soon hit ceilings of concrete, making only a small triangle of surrounding rooms a lethal area. Do you hit the shooter? Who knows, who cares. Maybe he retreats into the large area of his room you can't hit. Maybe he sees resistance and offs himself. Anything that slows the rate of outgoing fire is a good thing.

Again, who knows if it mattered in this situation. Maybe fire was returned, I hope so. I do think in some situations a suppressor would make it harder to fight back against for exactly none of the reasons Clinton had. I think it is a legit consideration for any cops with a patrol rifles to know their zero on something more than a 25 yd range and to look at this mess as something that they may face.

Now Joe citizen with a pistol? YMMV max probably 150 yards if there is an ideal situation of not worrying about stray bullets. Again, not for center of mass hits, just suppression of an ongoing shooting where the risk of imprecise fire is outweighed by the certainty of everyone dying. I shoot my pistols a lot at 100 yards, no one shooting back is a nice touch though.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I doubt anyone shooting back would have hit the guy.

But if they managed to get his attention, they may have been able to draw his fire, allowing others to escape.

[230RN]

If that is him, I hope somebody's capturing any videos like that independently before the antifas start cleansing them from the net.

Terry

Someone pointed out that it is curious how /pol/ has yet to find anything on the guy, except for a possible match in the video from an anti-Trump rally in August. Either he had no social media nor internet presence...or someone's scrubbing stuff, and done a good job of it.

Probably not tinfoil.

If I were the principal investigator, I'd be moving heaven and earth to get an immediate search warrant for his brother's e-mail and other correspondence toot sweet.

Terry

[freakazoid]

Don't forget that there's a string on the NFA registry... (Note the little metal tag that contains it's serial number...)

https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/shoestring-machinegun.jpg

The string is actually a registered NFA? Never knew that part. I wonder what you would have to register it as if someone wanted to do that?

[Hawkmoon]

It would take an amazing marksman to even get to "nearby rooms". This is a circumstance where a concealed pistol would not be any help whatsoever.

Now, now.

Steven Seagal would have picked off each of the sniper's bullets in mid-air ...

[230RN]

Oh, the BUTF backtracked on that interpretation of a shoelace being a machine gun, didn't they?  I recall seeing a letter to that effect.

I was amused because a strict reading of the actual law actually did make the shoelace a "machinegun," but after warding off a crapload of protests (and laughter), they found a way to regulatorily weasel out of it.  I believe that's the present status of the "shoelace machinegun" thing.

What was so amusing (and frightening) to me was how words could be so manipulated to switch something from "A" to "B," the complete opposite of the original meaning.

Hence my concern about any legal tinkering with any "bump firing" stocks or techniques.  What they define today can be modified tomorrow, either by direct amendment in the legislative process, or as in the shoelace case, by regulatory word games.

Terry

[Hawkmoon]

Counterfire? Who said pistols, not me. You imagine that in a large town like that there are patrol rifles that have a published 500yd max effective range and hopefully an optic. Not ideal, but if potentially hundreds of people are getting shot any responders with rifles have no real good options beyond hose down where the flash comes from. Are there other hotel rooms? Sure are. Less people there than are dying with you, first shot from a 5.56 likely breaks up on hitting an unbroken window and firing at an upward angle you will soon hit ceilings of concrete, making only a small triangle of surrounding rooms a lethal area. Do you hit the shooter? Who knows, who cares. Maybe he retreats into the large area of his room you can't hit. Maybe he sees resistance and offs himself. Anything that slows the rate of outgoing fire is a good thing.

Most patrol rifles are basically M4s, or 16" AR-15 carbines. 500 yards is about the absolute maximum effective range, but there's no way they're zeroed for 500 yards (and 32 stories up). The bullet drop for M193 or M855 is around 36 to 42 inches -- call it three feet. But I had to look that up, and I carried an M16 around Vietnam. I'm sure no cop knows what the 500 yard bullet drop is. There's no way they'd take that shot.

"Less people there than are dying with you ..." Yes, but those people are being shot by the bad guy. Cops shooting hotel guests through windows while trying to walk their fire in on the 32d floor would be a PR nightmare for the city and the department. And probably result in criminal charges against any officer dumb enough to try it.

[freakazoid]

Most patrol rifles are basically M4s, or 16" AR-15 carbines. 500 yards is about the absolute maximum effective range, but there's no way they're zeroed for 500 yards (and 32 stories up). The bullet drop for M193 or M855 is around 36 to 42 inches -- call it three feet. But I had to look that up, and I carried an M16 around Vietnam. I'm sure no cop knows what the 500 yard bullet drop is. There's no way they'd take that shot.

"Less people there than are dying with you ..." Yes, but those people are being shot by the bad guy. Cops shooting hotel guests through windows while trying to walk their fire in on the 32d floor would be a PR nightmare for the city and the department. And probably result in criminal charges against any officer dumb enough to try it.

Might be a PR nightmare. Certainly better than the alternative I think. They do nothing; people ARE being gunned down. Return fire; MAYBE a hotel guest gets hit, also likely to either cause the shooter to bring his attention on you instead of innocent civilians, maybe get lucky and hit him, or possibly cause him to see resistance and simply kill himself which so many mass shooters seem to do the moment resistance happens. I think the benefit far outweighs the risk.

[Hawkmoon]

Might be a PR nightmare. Certainly better than the alternative I think. They do nothing; people ARE being gunned down. Return fire; MAYBE a hotel guest gets hit, also likely to either cause the shooter to bring his attention on you instead of innocent civilians, maybe get lucky and hit him, or possibly cause him to see resistance and simply kill himself which so many mass shooters seem to do the moment resistance happens. I think the benefit far outweighs the risk.

Considering the odds are about 1000:1 in favor of hitting an innocent hotel guest rather than the shooter, I'd have to disagree with you. I think the risk FAR outweighs the potential benfit.

[KD5NRH]

Psychiatric drugs were involved, so either the underlying condition he was being treated for was a bigger problem than the psychiatrist thought, or it was relatively minor but the valium contributed to his full-on psychosis. Here comes the debate on psychiatry.

What psychiatrist?  Dr Winkler's practice is internal medicine.

Diazepam isn't that unusual for muscle spasms, and I had it briefly as part of a rotation through different pile-o-pills migraine treatments; it was to treat the possible anxiety that was a moderately common side effect of the drug that was supposed to treat the actual migraine.  (Name of that one escapes me as it's been over a decade.)  It was "up to two per day as needed," and contact the office again ASAP if that's not enough or I needed a refill, but I think I only took it once.

[KD5NRH]

The bullet drop for M193 or M855 is around 36 to 42 inches -- call it three feet.

While I can see why it would never be an issue in jungle combat, knowing the max effective range, roughly what that looks like, and the drop at that range for a rifle seems pretty basic if one is carrying it in open terrain where one can usually see that far in any direction other than straight up.  If nothing else it provides a quick reality check of knowing that the drop closer in shouldn't be more than that.  Conveniently, the above mentioned drop is roughly half a large man, so you even have a handy reference at range.

Now, I seriously doubt a suite at the Mandalay has less than 8' ceilings, and I'd be really surprised if there's not enough structure in it to stop small arms fire, (remember that poured concrete as a fireproof way to keep from hearing complaints every time the guy upstairs takes a step is fairly common even down to Motel 6) then it doesn't take Hathcock to figure out to aim for the upper edge of the window with the first shots.  Maybe carefully walk them down a bit after that, but just blowing some dust off the ceiling should give the shooter something else to think about.  As for the overall range, approaching as much as possible before/while firing would also have the advantage of drawing any return fire away from the retreating mass of people.  Covering 50-100 yards at a time fairly quickly (once you're outside the fence) isn't that hard to do, especially with the adrenalin you're going to be running on at that point.

[Perd Hapley]

Thank goodness - Michael Moore has found the answer.

https://www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/10154778028796857

[freakazoid]

Considering the odds are about 1000:1 in favor of hitting an innocent hotel guest rather than the shooter, I'd have to disagree with you. I think the risk FAR outweighs the potential benfit.

Those numbers are made up. And you don't have to hit the shooter. The risk of hitting an innocent person, while innocent people are at that very moment actually being hit and killed around you, outweighs the potential benefit of stopping that? I don't think so.

[Ben]

Thank goodness - Michael Moore has found the answer.

https://www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/10154778028796857

As over 90% of gun violence is committed by men, in order for a man to purchase a gun, he must first get a waiver from his current wife, plus his most recent ex-wife, or any woman with whom he is currently in a relationship (if he’s gay, he must get the waiver from his male spouse/partner). This law has greatly reduced most spousal/domestic gun murders in Canada.

Since it's Michael Moore, I figured the "spouse permission" thing in Canada was a lie. However I looked it up and they actually want your spouse's signature, or your former spouse's signature, if you are or were married. Though it doesn't appear to be required - they will simply notify them that you have a gun (which is pretty commie all on its own). Bottom line, it's notification, not "permission" or a "waiver", and it appears to apply to both sexes (or however many they have in Canada nowadays). So really, Moore IS lying. Again.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/form-formulaire/pdfs/5592-eng.pdf

[Perd Hapley]

So really, Moore IS lying. Again.

If you won't lie, to push gun control, you are complicit.

[TommyGunn]

Thank goodness - Michael Moore has found the answer.

https://www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/10154778028796857

The comments, largely, are equally if not more ...... whacky.

[Chester32141]

Could of been worse .... 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/10/report-las-vegas-gunman-stephen-paddock-targeted-massive-aviation-fuel-tanks/

[Perd Hapley]

Could of been worse .... 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/10/report-las-vegas-gunman-stephen-paddock-targeted-massive-aviation-fuel-tanks/

You mean he could have done far more damage by bombing those tanks, using no guns at all? Don't wreck the narrative, bro!

[bedlamite]

Too much doesn't add up.

If you look at the floor plan of his Vista suite and the exterior view, it looks like he went into the next room to break out another window. Why leave the suite when there are 3 windows in the suite he could have broken?

Multiple witnesses said there were multiple shooters, and there were several videos of what looks like muzzle flash on about floor 7-10? Some have been removed by youtube already. Officer says it was probably someone playing with a strobe light. riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Some of the gunfire in the videos sounded like it could be a bumpfire, but some of it was also too consistent to be bumpfire. Nobody can keep it going that steady for that long. Especially an older guy that his family says 'didn't like guns'

I see neat stacks of loaded Surefire magazines in the pics, and lots of guns haphazard around the suite. Where is the spent brass and empty mags? 10 minutes at that rate of fire in the same general direction would produce a mountain of it.

Room service receipt looked like an order for two people. Maybe the other person was the woman ejected from the concert earlier for screaming 'you're all going to die'?

Who went in and out of that room? Where is the hall footage from the hotel security cams? You know it exists.

Like it or not, ISIS has been reliable when they claimed they were involved.

I'm not going full blown conspiracy theory, but this doesn't pass the smell test. The media and authorities aren't telling the whole story.

[wmenorr67]

Too much doesn't add up.

Multiple witnesses said there were multiple shooters, and there were several videos of what looks like muzzle flash on about floor 7-10? Some have been removed by youtube already. Officer says it was probably someone playing with a strobe light. riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I'm not going full blown conspiracy theory, but this doesn't pass the smell test. The media and authorities aren't telling the whole story.

If so, why aren't there other windows broken out?

[bedlamite]

If so, why aren't there other windows broken out?

I'm not sure where the cutoff is, but apparently the lower floors have Windows that open.

police also discussed a shooter on the 4th floor o er the radio.

[KD5NRH]

So, even if lower floor windows do open, how has that part not leaked hard yet?  Is the Mandalay complicit in the coverup, or did they just not notice a bunch of much closer gunshots and a few piles of brass several hundred feet from where the shooter was supposed to be?

Also interesting; here's video showing a flashing light in the same location two hours before the shooting.  Those must be some really slow bullets.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZwofXcgzh9/

[KD5NRH]

I'm not going full blown conspiracy theory, but this doesn't pass the smell test. The media and authorities aren't telling the whole story.

Lone wolf is the least beneficial story for them, though; if they say multiple shooters, then they would have a pile of excuses for any delay or mistake.