GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen

[Ben]

GM announced they are going 100% electric or hydrogen on all their vehicles. No timetable other than "at least 20 models" by 2023. As with driverless cars, I'm wondering how this will affect people like me, who like to explore the empty places. I've not seen range on current fuel cell powered vehicles, but I'm guessing it's not more than the 200 miles max of the electrics.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/amp/gm-going-all-electric-will-ditch-gas-diesel-powered-cars-n806806

[HeroHog]

By By GM!

[RoadKingLarry]

For the libtards, a reduced range that keeps people out of the boonies would be a feature, not a bug.

[Nick1911]

I've wondered about range issues myself.  I routinely make a 500 mile trip.  This would not be easy with current non gasoline-powered offerings.

[230RN]

Well, there goes the Ford versus Chevvy debate.

[Ben]

I've wondered about range issues myself.  I routinely make a 500 mile trip.  This would not be easy with current non gasoline-powered offerings.

I'm also curious on, for instance, Tesla's "200 mile range". Is that a true 200 miles, as in I can get to a charger at 195, or could I potentially go dead at 170, especially with older batteries? Also, 200 miles on flat ground? What about more aggressive driving, grades, etc?

I recognize the consumption calculations and battery health are computerized, but wonder how well they adjust to various conditions. Even though my truck has a 600 mile range, I never go below "100 miles to E" (and usually am way more conservative than that) before filling up, especially when I don't know where the next gas station will be.

I'm sure even in another five years that we'll see longer ranges, but they seem to have a long way to go to get close to what the average gasoline car does now.

[Cliffh]

Well, there goes the Ford versus Chevvy debate.

I've been a "Chevy guy" for the last 45 years or so, brother's been into Fords all along.  Guess I'll be calling my brother to let him know he's been right.

[Scout26]

I'm also curious on, for instance, Tesla's "200 mile range". Is that a true 200 miles, as in I can get to a charger at 195, or could I potentially go dead at 170, especially with older batteries? Also, 200 miles on flat ground? What about more aggressive driving, grades, etc?

I recognize the consumption calculations and battery health are computerized, but wonder how well they adjust to various conditions. Even though my truck has a 600 mile range, I never go below "100 miles to E" (and usually am way more conservative than that) before filling up, especially when I don't know where the next gas station will be.

I'm sure even in another five years that we'll see longer ranges, but they seem to have a long way to go to get close to what the average gasoline car does now.

We've been diddle-doinking with electric cars since there were cars. In that time we've gone from Lead-Acid to Li-Ion batteries ranges have gone from ~75 miles to 200 miles.   So baring some new technique to make batteries small, cheaper, and more powerful, we're hitting about the top end of the affordability or cost/benefit curve.  

I'd be very, very interested as to how GM is going to make a hydrogen powered* car.   It takes more energy to make it than it provides, unless you are using nuclear to power the electrolysis or Natural Gas reforming, but would that be using those icky fossil fuels ??


Time to short GM...  It pisses me off to think how much we could have saved the taxpayers, bond and stockholders had Obama just let it go into BK like most companies that have failed/are failing do...







*- https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrogen_production.html   I personally like the Liquefied Hydrogen Tankers because nothing could ever go wrong there.  

  

[RoadKingLarry]

GM could name their 1st hydrogen car the Hindenburg.

[Firethorn]

but I'm guessing it's not more than the 200 miles max of the electrics.

What 200 mile maximum?  Tesla's 100D has a range of 335 miles.

https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/20/teslas-latest-100d-models-focus-on-range-not-power/

As for how that figure was obtained, I've heard that they've actually gotten close to 500 miles out of one by hypermiling it, http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-s-sets-new-hypermiling-record-560-miles-2017-6

From what I understand, their range estimate is calculated using the standard mileage test by the EPA.  IE run the course/simulation, divide course distance by percent of battery power used.  Not incredibly real world, but if you get better than EPA mpg on your current vehicle, you should have more range than stated on the Tesla.  If you get worse, you'll probably get less range.  "Nobody" drives to match the EPA test exactly.

[230RN]

Quote from: 230RN on October 02, 2017, 09:19:15 PM

Well, there goes the Ford versus Chevvy debate.

I've been a "Chevy guy" for the last 45 years or so, brother's been into Fords all along.  Guess I'll be calling my brother to let him know he's been right.

 

Takes a man to man up and admit he's wrong.  I know, 'cause I've had a lot of practice in that.

Terry

[HankB]

I'm also curious on, for instance, Tesla's "200 mile range". Is that a true 200 miles, as in I can get to a charger at 195, or could I potentially go dead at 170, especially with older batteries? Also, 200 miles on flat ground? What about more aggressive driving, grades, etc?

I recognize the consumption calculations and battery health are computerized, but wonder how well they adjust to various conditions. Even though my truck has a 600 mile range, I never go below "100 miles to E" (and usually am way more conservative than that) before filling up, especially when I don't know where the next gas station will be.

I'm sure even in another five years that we'll see longer ranges, but they seem to have a long way to go to get close to what the average gasoline car does now.

What about people up North - say, Minnesota - whose cars frequently see sub freezing (and frequently sub-zero) temperature conditions and lots of snow? Ordinary batteries lose capacity in cold weather - not sure about lithium ion. But if you've got the heater/defroster running full blast with headlights and wipers on when it's cold and snowing, the extra drain will certainly affect range of a battery powered vehicle.

[230RN]

They recover some of the energy on the return strokes of the wiper blades.  Regenerative wiping, they call it.

[charby]

Gasoline powered vehicles are going to go the way of the horse and buggy.

[dogmush]

I wouldn't be too concerned about this, except that I get the feeling if it turns out to be a bad business move GM will limp along until we get a new pres and then get another bailout.

[K Frame]

Well, there goes the Ford versus Chevvy debate.

Yep. It was won by Subaru.

[K Frame]

"I'm also curious on, for instance, Tesla's "200 mile range". Is that a true 200 miles, as in I can get to a charger at 195, or could I potentially go dead at 170, especially with older batteries? Also, 200 miles on flat ground? What about more aggressive driving, grades, etc?"

As with other mileage figures for gasoline and diesel, it's going to be affected significantly by driving style, driving conditions, and the like.

[Ben]

Gasoline powered vehicles are going to go the way of the horse and buggy.

That's fine as long as the replacements are well researched, introduced through capitalism vs force of government, and perform better than what they replace.

[Ben]

What 200 mile maximum?  Tesla's 100D has a range of 335 miles.

https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/20/teslas-latest-100d-models-focus-on-range-not-power/

Notice your link said "range over power". Call me when they have both range AND power (and 4wd). 

[MechAg94]

That's fine as long as the replacements are well researched, introduced through capitalism vs force of government, and perform better than what they replace.

Yeah, I want to see the Indy 500 or NASCAR have an all electric race and see how that works. 

[MechAg94]

I've been a "Chevy guy" for the last 45 years or so, brother's been into Fords all along.  Guess I'll be calling my brother to let him know he's been right.

I had Chevrolet until it became Govt Motors.  My current truck is a Ford F150.  Good truck.  I promised myself I would seriously look at Toyota also next time.  A couple people I work with have their trucks and they seem to be pretty good. 

[charby]

That's fine as long as the replacements are well researched, introduced through capitalism vs force of government, and perform better than what they replace.

I have a feeling the future increased costs and scarcity of fuels that we currently use will drive it. Wouldn't be surprised if there is a migration back to the Midwest and Northeast as it becomes too expensive to run airconditiong in the Southern cities.

Long distance travel regularly by the masses is a relatively new thing, fueled by cheap energy. As we lose affordable hydrocarbons things we take for granted are going to disappear. Cheap food for one, amazing how much fertilizer that creates the high yields is hydrocarbon based. May not happen in our lifetimes, but it is coming.

[Perd Hapley]

Are we back to peak oil again?

[makattak]

I have a feeling the future increased costs and scarcity of fuels that we currently use will drive it. Wouldn't be surprised if there is a migration back to the Midwest and Northeast as it becomes too expensive to run airconditiong in the Southern cities.

Long distance travel regularly by the masses is a relatively new thing, fueled by cheap energy. As we lose affordable hydrocarbons things we take for granted are going to disappear. Cheap food for one, amazing how much fertilizer that creates the high yields is hydrocarbon based. May not happen in our lifetimes, but it is coming.

What evidence do you have that fossil fuels are becoming scarce?

(I see fistful beat me to it.)

Incidentally, I have seen quite a few articles worried about the serious problems of peak oil demand. Our world is on a path towards population reduction, not overpopulation. (Of which "peak oil" is a subset of the Malthus falsehoods.)

[charby]

What evidence do you have that fossil fuels are becoming scarce?

(I see fistful beat me to it.)

Incidentally, I have seen quite a few articles worried about the serious problems of peak oil demand. Our world is on a path towards population reduction, not overpopulation. (Of which "peak oil" is a subset of the Malthus falsehoods.)

Cost of extraction and processing vs. price it takes to make it profitable. Is alternative energy going to be cheaper then vs using extracted hydrocarbons. Scarcity isn't about running out, it's about at what cost will people still pay for it or look for alternatives.

If it costs you $1500 in gasoline to drive 500 miles would you still do it? Or costs you $5 in electricity to drive 250 miles?

I think many people's view is that we have had cheap energy our entire lives and so did our parents, so it seems like it is everlasting.