GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen

[Scout26]

GM could name their 1st hydrogen car the Hindenburg.

THAT"S AWESOME !!!!!

 

[Ben]

On the fuel cells, I just did a little googling and Car and Driver says about a 250 mile range at this time, so that would need to nearly double as well to be practical.

[Scout26]

I have a feeling the future increased costs and scarcity of fuels that we currently use will drive it.

We've been running out of oil since 1975 when there were only 600 billion bbl in proven reserves.  Now there are over 1,800 billion bbl in proven reserves.*   Three times what we had 40 years ago.

https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/article-from-1975-the-world-will-be-out-of-oil-by-2015-1732903871


Proven oil Reserves:
OPEC -1,200 Billion Barrels (Venezuela alone has 296 Billion bbl)
US- 264 Billion bbl
Russia - 266 Billion bbl
Canada - 173 Billion bbl
Nigeria - 37.2 Billion bbl

If you notice the price of gas and other fossil fuels (like NG) have gone to to about half (or less) of what they were ten years ago.    Until and unless they can produce cars with batteries that match the price, range, and convenience of gasoline powered vehicles, then they won't be competitive.    Especially once subsidies and tax breaks are removed: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-02/denmark-is-killing-tesla-and-other-electric-cars




* - http://oilprice.com/images/tinymce/POB2.jpg

[makattak]

Cost of extraction and processing vs. price it takes to make it profitable. Is alternative energy going to be cheaper then vs using extracted hydrocarbons. Scarcity isn't about running out, it's about at what cost will people still pay for it or look for alternatives.

If it costs you $1500 in gasoline to drive 500 miles would you still do it? Or costs you $5 in electricity to drive 250 miles?

I think many people's view is that we have had cheap energy our entire lives and so did our parents, so it seems like it is everlasting.

No, scarcity is exactly about running out.

scarcity
[skair-si-tee]

noun, plural scarcities.
1.
insufficiency or shortness of supply; dearth.
2.
rarity; infrequency.

That's what would drive your $1500 tank of gas.

IF renewables become cheaper, than why would we also be facing an issue of expensive electricity. Your examples and reasoning are contradictory.

I have no problem with a move to electric cars if they become better than gas cars. (Not just "cheaper" because, as others have noted, there are more issues than just cost to operate.) I'm not opposed to alternate energy sources per se, I'm opposed to forcing them in the absence of demand.

[230RN]

Say, where are we getting all this electricity to charge up all these car batteries from?

[makattak]

Say, where are we getting all this electricity to charge up these cars from anyway?

Solar and wind power!
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Stop laughing!

[230RN]

^

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Stop laughing!

Mrmf!  Snort! <gigglestifle>

I'm trying to stop.

But then I think of how much energy is required to obtain hydrogen from water, then compress it, then run it through a fuel cell to make water again....

Or even... even... now get this.... even run it through a regular old combustion engine to get power....

Bwah-hah-hah-hahhh !  Can't help myself ! 

[charby]

We've been running out of oil since 1975 when there were only 600 billion bbl in proven reserves.  Now there are over 1,800 billion bbl in proven reserves.*   Three times what we had 40 years ago.

https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/article-from-1975-the-world-will-be-out-of-oil-by-2015-1732903871


Proven oil Reserves:
OPEC -1,200 Billion Barrels (Venezuela alone has 296 Billion bbl)
US- 264 Billion bbl
Russia - 266 Billion bbl
Canada - 173 Billion bbl
Nigeria - 37.2 Billion bbl

If you notice the price of gas and other fossil fuels (like NG) have gone to to about half (or less) of what they were ten years ago.    Until and unless they can produce cars with batteries that match the price, range, and convenience of gasoline powered vehicles, then they won't be competitive.    Especially once subsidies and tax breaks are removed: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-02/denmark-is-killing-tesla-and-other-electric-cars




* - http://oilprice.com/images/tinymce/POB2.jpg

So why isn't oil under $10 a barrel if we have so much?

Look at battery tech in the last 10-15 years, it is getting better. As wind/solar tech gets better (and cheaper) you can have a backyard fuel source, think about it less government involvement on your own energy demands. Look at how much government is involved with hydrocarbon fuels.

[230RN]

Say, where are we getting all these raw materials to make modern hi-energy-density batteries from anyway?

[makattak]

So why isn't oil under $10 a barrel if we have so much?

Look at battery tech in the last 10-15 years, it is getting better. As wind/solar tech gets better (and cheaper) you can have a backyard fuel source, think about it less government involvement on your own energy demands. Look at how much government is involved with hydrocarbon fuels.

How does this ↑ fit with this ↓?

I think many people's view is that we have had cheap energy our entire lives and so did our parents, so it seems like it is everlasting.

Incidentally, the government is "involved" with hydrocarbons about as much as it is "involved" with every business in the country... except that it gets specially taxed, as well.

[charby]

Say, where are we getting all these raw materials to make modern hi-energy-density batteries from anyway?

exploit the third world.. like we always do. :)

[Ben]

Say, where are we getting all these raw materials to make modern hi-energy-density batteries from anyway?

You missed our thread on Cobalt stocks. 

[charby]

How does this ↑ fit with this ↓?

Incidentally, the government is "involved" with hydrocarbons about as much as it is "involved" with every business in the country... except that it gets specially taxed, as well.

You aren't making gasoline in your backyard, you need to buy it at a pump.

Making electricity and storing it in batteries is something you can do pretty easily. I have a solar panel, power regulator and deep cycle battery for my sailboat that I don't plug into the grid to keep it charged. No one knows how much energy I transfer, store and use.

[Scout26]

So why isn't oil under $10 a barrel if we have so much?

Look at battery tech in the last 10-15 years, it is getting better. As wind/solar tech gets better (and cheaper) you can have a backyard fuel source, think about it less government involvement on your own energy demands. Look at how much government is involved with hydrocarbon fuels.

Costs to extract, transport, process, transport again, and then all the .gov taxes.  (There might a tiny bit of profit in there at each level.)  Why is gas $.30-$.50 cheaper in Indiana then in Illinois ??


Wind/Solar is not getting "Cheaper" the cost to KwH has been the same for 20 years now.    Plus both are unreliable.  Neither have gotten "better".  Solar doesn't work at night to charge your electric car, and if there's not enough wind (winds frequently die down during the night, something to do with the sun and heat), you wake up to uncharged electric car.  And batteries lose storage capacity over time, the more they are charged and discharged.

Why aren't you driving a Tesla either for personal use or for your job ??

[Hawkmoon]

Gasoline powered vehicles are going to go the way of the horse and buggy.

So we'll have to go to Pennsylvania Dutch country to see Amish farmers driving gasoline-powered vehicles?

[charby]

Why aren't you driving a Tesla either for personal use or for your job ??

Cost of the vehicle, but as they become more affordable they become more attractive as an option.

For work: 250 miles range would fit 95% of my driving, most days I am under 200 miles of driving. I drive a E85 vehicle for work and required by work to use E85.

More than likely when it is time for me to get a new personal vehicle, I'm going to get a flex fuel vehicle. when there is a .40-.50 price difference between e10 and e85 it is cheaper to use e85. Ethanol is no longer subsidized either, hell they are exporting American made ethanol because of the surplus.

[charby]

Costs to extract, transport, process, transport again, and then all the .gov taxes.  (There might a tiny bit of profit in there at each level.)  Why is gas $.30-$.50 cheaper in Indiana then in Illinois ??


Wind/Solar is not getting "Cheaper" the cost to KwH has been the same for 20 years now.    Plus both are unreliable.  Neither have gotten "better".  Solar doesn't work at night to charge your electric car, and if there's not enough wind (winds frequently die down during the night, something to do with the sun and heat), you wake up to uncharged electric car.  And batteries lose storage capacity over time, the more they are charged and discharged.

I was talking the price of wholesale oil on the open market

Also gasoline engines wear out, so do batteries. Nothing lasts forever.

[p12]

I wish a manufacturer would expand on the GM set up on the Volt. Having a battery for storage and a gas powered engine running at a steady rpm powering a generator actually works fairly good.


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[Perd Hapley]

I wish a manufacturer would expand on the GM set up on the Volt. Having a battery for storage and a gas powered engine running at a steady rpm powering a generator actually works fairly good.

Would that be similar to a diesel-electric?

[charby]

I wish a manufacturer would expand on the GM set up on the Volt. Having a battery for storage and a gas powered engine running at a steady rpm powering a generator actually works fairly good.


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How would that work with variable engine speeds? I totally see it working on interstate trucking, fairly constant speed and loading outside of the hilly areas. 

[dogmush]

I wish a manufacturer would expand on the GM set up on the Volt. Having a battery for storage and a gas powered engine running at a steady rpm powering a generator actually works fairly good.


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That was the Fisker model. It actually worked very well.   Shame the cars kept catching fire.

Porsche uses a similar system in their hybrid. With less flames.

[Fly320s]

I was talking the price of wholesale oil on the open market

Because it is a publicly traded commodity.

[BobR]

I drive a E85 vehicle for work and required by work to use E85.

Our fleet has mostly flex fuel or E85 vehicles. There is one place in town to get E85 so the .gov built our very own E85 storage tank on site to fuel our vehicles. I wonder if the cost savings in fuel has paid for the gas station yet?

bob

[charby]

Because it is a publicly traded commodity.

If we have some much of it, why isn't it cheaper? Oh, it's getting more expensive to extract, so there has to be a minimum price so people will produce. Is it going to get the the point where extraction will become so expensive demand with shift to other forms of energy due to costs?

[makattak]

Our fleet has mostly flex fuel or E85 vehicles. There is one place in town to get E85 so the .gov built our very own E85 storage tank on site to fuel our vehicles. I wonder if the cost savings in fuel has paid for the gas station yet?

bob

Survey says!................   XXX