Author Topic: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen  (Read 7154 times)

charby

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2017, 02:27:56 PM »
Our fleet has mostly flex fuel or E85 vehicles. There is one place in town to get E85 so the .gov built our very own E85 storage tank on site to fuel our vehicles. I wonder if the cost savings in fuel has paid for the gas station yet?

bob


I live in the land of corn, E85 can be located in many areas. I have 2 locations in the town I live in and several more within 30 miles. I have three ethanol plants within 30 miles also. They and feed mills use so much field corn that farmers can get market price for corn and very rare for any of the elevators in my area to export via rail.
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AJ Dual

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2017, 02:35:43 PM »
Until and unless they can produce cars with batteries that match the price, range, and convenience of gasoline powered vehicles, then they won't be competitive.    Especially once subsidies and tax breaks are removed: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-02/denmark-is-killing-tesla-and-other-electric-cars


Barring some fundamental scientific, physics, or chemistry law that puts a wall in our way, or the rare chance that a working super-battery requiring insanely expensive rare metals... we will get to that point in cost per kg per kWh (and charge time, and number of cycles/life-span) where it is competitive with gasoline, and probably even surpassing it.

The reason being, is even if the economy of cars stopped driving battery research today, everything else is. Smartphones, tablets, drones, wireless earphones, cameras, battery backup systems for data centers... it goes on and on.  So there's dozens of industries that are providing economic incentives to figure out lighter, smaller, more durable, and more energy-dense batteries.

Teslas, such as they are, use a huge stack of 18650 LiOn batteries, the same ones as in laptop batteries, at least until you get into the slim ultrabooks which have LiPoly flat batteries more like tablets and cell phones. 18650's got to be as good as they are not because of the electric car industry, but because of the laptop industry.

So my gut feeling on this is that a lot of businesses and investors see the writing on the wall, and that the faux-economy of subsidies and electric cars that are price-uncompetitive status symbols is coming to a... well, I won't say "an end", but I will say it's coming to a middle. (hat tip to Firefly)

The main bottleneck I see isn't the battery tech, it's being attacked by so many, from so many directions, success seems likely. (I'll define success as 3x the current best kWh per kg, and 2 x the lifespan/charge-discharge cycles, and low fire risk...) The bottleneck I see is getting the NIMBY/eco-nut barrier broken to getting enough nuclear to charge all these cars.

It's not as if we don't have thousands of uses for those petrochemicals beyond simply burning them to get around, even if proven supplies are going up all the time. Fertilizer, plastics, medicine, lubrication, rubber, synthetic thread/fabrics... the list goes on for pages and pages.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2017, 02:42:25 PM »
The main bottleneck I see isn't the battery tech, it's being attacked by so many, from so many directions, success seems likely. (I'll define success as 3x the current best kWh per kg, and 2 x the lifespan/charge-discharge cycles, and low fire risk...) The bottleneck I see is getting the NIMBY/eco-nut barrier broken to getting enough nuclear to charge all these cars.

It's not as if we don't have thousands of uses for those petrochemicals beyond simply burning them to get around, even if proven supplies are going up all the time. Fertilizer, plastics, medicine, lubrication, rubber, synthetic thread/fabrics... the list goes on for pages and pages.


Don't forget the demand side, as we adopt more efficient technologies.
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HankB

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2017, 02:58:09 PM »
. . .The main bottleneck I see isn't the battery tech, it's being attacked by so many, from so many directions, success seems likely . . . 
Eventually.

Just like fusion power. (Which has been 20 years off for the past 40 years . . . and still is.)
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RocketMan

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2017, 03:04:18 PM »
Eventually.

Just like fusion power. (Which has been 20 years off for the past 40 years . . . and still is.)

More like ten years off for the last sixty years.  Fusion is starting to look like to be one of those pie-in-the-sky technologies that will never be commercially viable, at least in our lifetimes.  Maybe after some major technological breakthroughs a hundred years from now fusion power will be a thing.
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AJ Dual

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2017, 03:04:52 PM »

Don't forget the demand side, as we adopt more efficient technologies.

Growth worldwide overall  is still far outstripping any shrink in the demand that higher tech. Stuff like the savings from LED house lighting, LED street lights, smart house wi-fi thermostats, and smartphones/tablets replacing desktop PC's etc. will be eaten up many times over as the Third and Second World claws their way up and industrializes and gets utilities. It's going to happen. I mean, you can estimate the energy savings once 99% of the U.S. has LED bulbs, but even if you discount the third world, proliferation in new energy consuming devices is going to eat up the savings.

And barring wars to prevent it, and without major breakthroughs in Solar, the Third World powering up is going to happen via coal power, unless we can commoditize modular meltdown-proof walk-away-safe nuclear power that also mitigates proliferation concerns.

More like ten years off for the last sixty years.  Fusion is starting to look like to be one of those pie-in-the-sky technologies that will never be commercially viable, at least in our lifetimes.  Maybe after some major technological breakthroughs a hundred years from now fusion power will be a thing.

Fusion is attainable. Because we know it works in stars, and in H-bombs. There's not really some fundamental physics barrier we need to break, it's more of an "engineering problem". Fusion is poised to get commercialized as higher technology in other fields is making it more practical, and enabling us to tackle it in ways we haven't before.

It's kind of like what's happening with SpaceX. Putting aside the love Elon/hate Elon cult of personality and the .gov subsidies, so far SpaceX has managed to do for pennies on the dollar what no one else has been able to, because they've leveraged every new technology advantage we have. Computers, carbon fiber composites, 3D printing and a whole slew of other bleeding edge technologies. I don't think people completely understand the enormity of what SpaceX has accomplished, when one has to look at what their biggest competitors are doing. Things like flying boosters that have a 50-60 year old design lineage, or by buying cold-war surplus rocket engines from Ukraine. And still doing it more expensively.

On top of that, SpaceX is landing it's goddamn rockets. We've already gotten used to that, but they figured out sustainable reusability in about 3 years, something that took NASA, what... never?

Of course they're standing on the backs of giants to get where they are, and it's not just all "lean" processes designed to minimize bureaucracy and inertia, they have a slew of 21st century technologies at their disposal that previous generations did not, but that's the point.

Fusion research is starting to get to that same place. Designs like the Wendelstein 7-X stellarator where it's a toriodal confinement ring, like a Tokamak, but it's also twisted or braided, and was a shape that was nigh impossible to make until large scale computer controlled machining and design was possible.

I won't predict commercial fusion in 10 years, I might bet $200 on somebody attaining greater than break-even sustained fusion within 10 years though. And for commercial fusion, I would say definitely less than 100 years.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 04:21:01 PM by AJ Dual »
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MechAg94

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2017, 03:10:59 PM »
If we have some much of it, why isn't it cheaper? Oh, it's getting more expensive to extract, so there has to be a minimum price so people will produce. Is it going to get the the point where extraction will become so expensive demand with shift to other forms of energy due to costs?
My understanding is the cost of extraction has gotten cheaper over the years hence they keep going after oil that is harder to get both on land and ocean.  I have always heard that if inflation is taken into account, oil prices have really not risen all that much in the last 30 years or so.

Also, there are a great many areas of the world that have not been fully explored (if at all) and lots of offshore areas that are off limits to exploration.  There is probably a lot of natural gas out there that they are not allowed to look for.  The "known reserves" number is just based on what we know about that has been explored. 

I imagine we will run out of oil eventually, but not for hundreds of years. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2017, 03:19:56 PM »
Growth worldwide overall  is still far outstripping any shrink in the demand that higher tech. Stuff like the savings from LED house lighting, LED street lights, smart house wi-fi thermostats, and smartphones/tablets replacing desktop PC's etc. will be eaten up many times over as the Third and Second World claws their way up and industrializes and gets utilities. It's going to happen. I mean, you can estimate the energy savings once 99% of the U.S. has LED bulbs, but even if you discount the third world, proliferation in new energy consuming devices is going to eat up the savings.

And barring wars to prevent it, and without major breakthroughs in Solar, the Third World powering up is going to happen via coal power, unless we can commoditize modular meltdown-proof walk-away-safe nuclear power that also mitigates proliferation concerns.


I've heard that. It still has to be figured in.
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AJ Dual

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2017, 04:30:05 PM »

I've heard that. It still has to be figured in.

Yes, there's some savings, and it can be measured, but new uses for electricity eat it up. I don't have the exact numbers, but stuff like LED's and "smart everything" will save maybe 10-15%, when aggregate electrical demand could jump 200%. And if we had plentiful nuclear power, there's also other things that open up to us, like wholesale desalinization of sea water for Southern California, and other dry countries. We're not just talking about a municipal water system, but enough energy to create entire freshwater canals and irrigation systems, lakes, and permanently green deserts.

Recycling and garbage, it can be done already, where we can cook or bake it back into hydrocarbons and other raw elements, but it's not cost effective. But with nearly unlimited energy we can reduce everything to it's constituent components for re-use, and we can also do things like attack certain kinds of resource extraction, like working with certain chemicals and ores that aren't profitable today because they take so much energy. 

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Perd Hapley

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2017, 05:53:21 PM »
Yes, there's some savings, and it can be measured, but new uses for electricity eat it up. I don't have the exact numbers, but stuff like LED's and "smart everything" will save maybe 10-15%, when aggregate electrical demand could jump 200%.

OK. I'm just saying that you can't guess what the demand is going to be (200% or whatever) without figuring in how much less energy newer tech will use.
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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2017, 05:57:40 PM »
Meanwhile, my Ford V8 came with a 34 gallon tank.
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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2017, 07:00:36 PM »
 "...like wholesale desalinization of sea water for Southern California, and other dry countries."

ISWYDT.  :rofl:
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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #62 on: October 03, 2017, 07:47:40 PM »
I wish a manufacturer would expand on the GM set up on the Volt. Having a battery for storage and a gas powered engine running at a steady rpm powering a generator actually works fairly good.

A friend of mine has owned a Volt for over 4 years and likes it.  He has the charging station at his house, so he only buys gas once a month, if that.

I've gone on one road trip from NoVA to NJ and back for work and a few around town trips in his Volt.  It seems to drive fine.

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charby

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2017, 09:19:58 PM »
Anyone thought GM is doing this to get their CAFE standards up for they can produce a bigger line up of bigger less fuel efficient vehicles?
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MechAg94

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #64 on: October 03, 2017, 09:32:18 PM »
Anyone thought GM is doing this to get their CAFE standards up for they can produce a bigger line up of bigger less fuel efficient vehicles?
I would say that is very likely.
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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2017, 09:38:25 PM »
GM announced today that they are beginning production on a new SUV crossover that will run on good intentions.
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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2017, 10:43:55 PM »
I would say that is very likely.

Well, except according to the article, they're going for 100% electric or fuel cell.  I guess it would give them a few years to sell big gas guzzlers while they transition. Though if the gasoline vehicles have known limited production life, I'm not sure I'd buy something that GM doesn't want to produce (and possibly not maintain) anymore.
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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2017, 10:55:04 PM »
How would that work with variable engine speeds? I totally see it working on interstate trucking, fairly constant speed and loading outside of the hilly areas. 
Uses the battery as a buffer. Torque on the Volt is fantastic.


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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2017, 11:20:55 PM »
Notice your link said "range over power". Call me when they have both range AND power (and 4wd).  =D

100D has more torque than a truck and is AWD.  The D stands for 'dual motor'. It's not just AWD, it has complete control over the power difference between front and back.

If that still isn't enough power for you, the P100D puts a bigger motor in the back, allowing a production vehicle to win against hellcats and such in drag racing.  It costs you about 20 miles of range because of the bigger motor.

Trucks lose more mileage going from 6 to 8 cylinders.
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charby

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2017, 11:48:50 PM »
Uses the battery as a buffer. Torque on the Volt is fantastic.


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So basically an improved Prius? I was probably thinking a straight diesel electric, no battery. Like a train.
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Firethorn

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2017, 12:24:00 AM »
So basically an improved Prius? I was probably thinking a straight diesel electric, no battery. Like a train.

I'd be hesitant to call it just "improved", depending on which generation of Prius you're talking about.

The Volt is a "strong" hybrid - it is capable of most driving tasks just on electric power.  If your commute is less than 30 miles, for example, you can probably make it without the gas engine ever turning on.  But it is always there, waiting.  You can also plug it in to take advantage of cheap electricity rates.

Early versions of the Prius were "weak" hybrids - the motor and battery were only good for puttering around in parking lots and accelerating the vehicle from a stop at a red light or stop sign, using the energy stored in the battery FROM stopping.  It would then turn on the engine above 40-45 mph, because the system just wasn't powerful enough.  You had no plug for charging it outside of the gasoline engine.

The Prius, in the end, was a modified gasoline vehicle.  The Volt is a true hybrid

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #71 on: October 04, 2017, 12:43:21 AM »
Ethanol is no longer subsidized either, hell they are exporting American made ethanol because of the surplus.

Could you please cite the legislation that ended Ethanol subsidies?  My copy of the budget still shows them in there.  Along with the EPA mandate (Renewable Fuel Standards) to use more and more each year.

https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/ethanol-and-biofuel-policies

https://www.cato.org/blog/time-repeal-ethanol-subsidies
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MillCreek

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #72 on: October 04, 2017, 10:54:17 AM »
In Motortrend the other day, I read that Toyota is working on hybrid powertrains for their trucks, with the Tacoma probably the first model to get one. I would be interested in something like that if it was a powertrain like the Volt.
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charby

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #73 on: October 04, 2017, 04:33:06 PM »
Could you please cite the legislation that ended Ethanol subsidies?  My copy of the budget still shows them in there.  Along with the EPA mandate (Renewable Fuel Standards) to use more and more each year.

https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/ethanol-and-biofuel-policies

https://www.cato.org/blog/time-repeal-ethanol-subsidies

Mandate of biofuel usage is still there but the production subsidy for finished ethanol is expired, import tariff is expired and so is the .10 tax break for e10 gasoline.
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MillCreek

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Re: GM to Go All Electric/Hydrogen
« Reply #74 on: October 04, 2017, 04:44:28 PM »
Mandate of biofuel usage is still there but the production subsidy for finished ethanol is expired, import tariff is expired and so is the .10 tax break for e10 gasoline.

My gosh, how did the Midwest farm lobby let that get through?
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.