Here we go again... (Texas church mass shooting)

[Angel Eyes]

So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun.

It had to be said.

[zxcvbob]

So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun.

It had to be said.

The Dallas Morning News is ranting about gun control.  The bad guy was already prohibited; I guess they didn't want the good guy to have a gun.  (it makes a better story if he kills a lot more people)

[French G.]

If true the BCD wouldn't have made him a prohibited person but the Lautenberg would have.

[Hawkmoon]

https://www.facebook.com/summer.caddell/posts/10155142293886482?pnref=story Several good guys with guns chase the bad guy down and killed him.

From my Airforce JAG Officer, now constitutional law professor friend:
I looked it up on WESTLAW ( a subscription service). He probably was given a DD by the base-levelCourt-Martial Board but the GCM Convening Authority only APPROVED a BCD and 1 year. The USAF is notoriously lenient.

So a DD that was knocked down to a BCD.

Nonetheless, the charge was a domestic violence charge. He was still a prohibited person.

[T.O.M.]

Watching the news this morning. Both NBC and BLN are just indicating he was chased and stopped by people,  not mentioning at all that the guys who intervened were armed.  I guess the best spin is to not say it at all...

[Hawkmoon]

More linkage: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5053013/Devin-Kelley-outcast-preached-atheism.html

There was a connection between the shooter and this church:

He was married to Danielle Shields, and they appear to have a child together. She was previously a teacher at the First Baptist Church. [Not clear -- I assume this is the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs]

Kelley lived at his parents’ home with his wife and child and neighbor Mark Moravitz told ABC News he would sometimes hear gunshots coming from near that house late at night.

The gunman's mother-in-law, Michelle Shields, also appears to have been a parishioner at the church and was friends on social media with the pastor's wife.

I don't know if that might point toward a motive, but it begins to appear that he didn't just pick this particular church at random by throwing darts at a map.

[Perd Hapley]

I read one article (don't recall where) saying he had been involved as a teacher, or teacher's aid, at a vacation Bible school. Now the Daily Wire has an article about him being a preachy atheist since high school.

[Hawkmoon]

Multiple articles have mentioned that he was a Bible studies aide, but none were clear as to when that was. I'm reading between the lines to surmise that it was while he was in high school.

If anyone knows definitively whether or not the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs is a gun-free zone, I would appreciate being advised. I'm corresponding with my state's concealed carry rights advocacy group's president, and this question has come up. We know that in Texas signs have to meet statutory requirements. The question is whether or not this church had posted 30.06 signs.

I was surprised that, in Texas, apparently there was nobody in the church who was carrying.

[Hawkmoon]

Trump nails it:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/06/trump-says-texas-church-shooting-caused-by-mental-health-problem-not-guns.html

"This isn't a guns situation," he said, before adding, "This is a mental health problem at the highest level. It's a very, very sad event."

...

"Fortunately … somebody else had a gun that was shooting in the opposite direction," Trump said at the press conference.

[Ben]

Fortunately … somebody else had a gun that was shooting in the opposite direction," Trump said at the press conference.

Heh. That's gonna set some people (Will Wheaton) off.

[slingshot]

That UK sourced article was one of the best I saw here.  It would appear that in fact the shooter was put down by a local who heard gun shots and grabbed his rifle.  But Kelley did one hell of a lot of damage very quickly.  He was wearing body armour and the guy who shot him understood enough to shoot where he was least protected.  Wish he would have popped him in the head.

This is the first I have seen as well that there was a link between the shooter and the church.

I think it really sucks that we seem to get the truth from Facebook and not from the regular news.

I still don't know if Kelley was a prohibited person in terms of owning a firearm.  I don't understand the military terminology used here and I don't know if a military conviction carries weight in civil court in terms of being prohibited to own a firearm.  The fact that Kelley used a CO address at Academy Sports when buying suggests he knew there was a problem with his record and hoped that the system would not catch it.  Was he stationed in CO and how recently did he return to TX?

[Fly320s]

That UK sourced article was one of the best I saw here.  It would appear that in fact the shooter was put down by a local who heard gun shots and grabbed his rifle.  But Kelley did one hell of a lot of damage very quickly.  He was wearing body armour and the guy who shot him understood enough to shoot where he was least protected.  Wish he would have popped him in the head.

The good guy used a rifle.  Soft body armor doesn't stop rifle rounds.  The fact that the bad guy was hit in a spot not covered by armor is probably because of luck, not skill.

[Fly320s]

I still don't know if Kelley was a prohibited person in terms of owning a firearm.

If he was convicted of domestic abuse, he was a prohibited person.

Question 11i on the 4473: "Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?"

Question 11b might count, too: "Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony or any other crime for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year?"  I'm pretty sure that includes military courts.

[slingshot]

Yeah, I forgot about soft body armour not stopping rifle rounds.

Added:  But apparently the NICS check missed the conviction.

[TommyGunn]

What I've heard is he was given a bad conduct discharge,  and that doesn't show up on a NICS check.   I suppose this might be wrong ...... I'm not an expert in military law.   
The Texas Governor was blathering how he was denied a carry permit,  but the Ruger M4orgery purchase was OK'd.    As if the two were the same .. .

[charby]

If he was convicted of domestic abuse, he was a prohibited person.

Question 11i on the 4473: "Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?"

Question 11b might count, too: "Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony or any other crime for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year?"  I'm pretty sure that includes military courts.

Heard about it a couple times in the news this am how he was supposed to be a prohibited person.

[Hawkmoon]

Apparently his initial court martial punishment was reduced from a dishonorable discharge to a bad conduct discharge. Nonetheless, he served a year in the slammer for a crime involving domestic violence. He was legally a prohibited person. Once again, the 20,000 gun control laws we already have on the books failed to stop a determined killer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5054531/Shooter-targeted-church-ex-s-laws-worshiped.html

It's finally coming out that the wife he abused while in the Air Force divorced him, and he is now married to a second wife. It's the second wife who comes from Sutherland Springs and who was a Sunday School teacher there. Her mother still lives in Sutherland Springs, and is a member of the church.

My guess: the second wife left him and went home to live with her mother, and this was his way to getting revenge. He probably expected to find them in the church.

[Hawkmoon]

What I've heard is he was given a bad conduct discharge,  and that doesn't show up on a NICS check.   I suppose this might be wrong ...... I'm not an expert in military law.   
The Texas Governor was blathering how he was denied a carry permit,  but the Ruger M4orgery purchase was OK'd.    As if the two were the same .. .

The 4473 only asks if you received a dishonorable discharge, so a bad conduct probably doesn't act as a disqualifier. But the fact that he served a year in military prison for a crime involving domestic violence should be a disqualifier, and that should show up on a NICS. Surprise: Our wonderful system is still broken.

[Ben]

Right now the MSM is leaning toward "self-inflicted" for the killing wound. I will be really curious as to what the investigation finally shows, because that will really change the narrative one way or the other on the "gun control" narrative. Also I wonder if there could be more than one wound, possibly hit by the citizen, then killed himself later.

I wonder how many people might shoot themselves in the head while driving versus stopping (or crashing) first and then doing so because they figure they have no escape. Not that the shooter was rational, but a rational person, I think, wouldn't consider shooting themselves while they're moving and possibly have a chance for escape. That's usually a, "no place else to go" thing.

[slingshot]

Heard about it a couple times in the news this am how he was supposed to be a prohibited person.

The problem is that the "news" is often false these days.  His bad conduct discharge was bad enough for a "dishonorable discharge".  That is pretty serious stuff and a scar for life.

Added:  So he initially received a dishonorable discharge which was changed.

[TommyGunn]

The 4473 only asks if you received a dishonorable discharge, so a bad conduct probably doesn't act as a disqualifier. But the fact that he served a year in military prison for a crime involving domestic violence should be a disqualifier, and that should show up on a NICS. Surprise: Our wonderful system is still broken.

Yea,   SOMETHING broke,  for sure!     I'd forgotten the domestic charge when I wrote the early post.

[slingshot]

Apparently his initial court martial punishment was reduced from a dishonorable discharge to a bad conduct discharge. Nonetheless, he served a year in the slammer for a crime involving domestic violence. He was legally a prohibited person. Once again, the 20,000 gun control laws we already have on the books failed to stop a determined killer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5054531/Shooter-targeted-church-ex-s-laws-worshiped.html

It's finally coming out that the wife he abused while in the Air Force divorced him, and he is now married to a second wife. It's the second wife who comes from Sutherland Springs and who was a Sunday School teacher there. Her mother still lives in Sutherland Springs, and is a member of the church.

My guess: the second wife left him and went home to live with her mother, and this was his way to getting revenge. He probably expected to find them in the church.

Fox News is still saying the motive is unclear.  Revenge is a serious motive.  I am glad that race was not involved.  If it was a predominantly black church, it would be race from a pubic news consumption.  They are also saying that Kelley killed himself.  That seems a bit strange to me under the circumstance mentioned earlier.

[KD5NRH]

I was surprised that, in Texas, apparently there was nobody in the church who was carrying.

Check the layout of the sanctuary on their YouTube channel; it's such a tactical nightmare you'd have to be insanely fast and accurate to have much of a chance with a handgun against a rifle coming in from behind you with no cover, little concealment and nowhere to run to.

[dogmush]

Not that it maters how many times he was a prohibited person but;

1 Domestic violence offender.

2. UCMJ Article 128 (assault) 7 (Assault consummated by a battery upon a child under 16 years) [he was convicted of hitting his kid as well]. Maximum punishment: Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

3. 18 USC doesn't say "dishonorable discharge"  It says "discharged under dishonorable conditions".  Which a Bad Conduct Discharge is.

I suspect we'll soon be hearing about how well (or not) various agencies report to NICS.  We already know that state mental health agencies have spotty reporting at best.

[MillCreek]

Noting that he was in military confinement for a year, under the UCMJ, is a sentence of 365 days or more considered a felony conviction?  Here in Washington, it is not uncommon to see criminal sentencing of a year and a day for felonies, and 364 days for crimes that are gross misdemeanors.