Author Topic: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States  (Read 3766 times)

K Frame

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2017, 10:40:59 AM »
None of the Admirals or Generals I've ever encountered demanded to be called by their rank. It was normally Captains or Majors, and one Colonel, who didn't work for NFCU, he was married to our secretary. He was an ahole, she was an absolute sweetheart.

The first time I'd work with one of them I'd address them by their rank and last name, and almost universally I'd be told to call them by their first name.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2017, 11:20:48 AM »
One thing that has always bugged me is that once someone is out of office, the press still refers to them by the title they previously had/held. e.g. Secretary Clinton, President Bush, Senator Reid, Speaker Gingrich. To my mind (and I think the Founders would agree), is that once out of office, they revert to Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss as appropriate.  Mrs Clinton, Mr. Bush, Mr. Reid, Mr. Gingrich.  I have noticed in going back and watching various newsclips, that the MSM always said "Secretary Clinton", yet it was often (>51% of the time) "Former President Bush" or "Former Speaker Gingrich".

I have noticed the same thing, and I agree with you. When a police officer retires, he is no longer a police officer and he is no longer called "Officer." Mrs. Clinton is not a senator, and she is not the Secretary of State. She holds no public office, therefore she is a private citizen, just like you and me. She is Mrs. Clinton, not "Secretary" Clinton.

I don't see people referring to Madelaine Albright or Colin Powell as "Secretary." Can't figure out why Hillary is different.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 11:35:16 AM by Hawkmoon »
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Pb

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2017, 11:26:28 AM »
Hmmm.... I would personally like a law banning naming any gov property after a living person.

Hawkmoon

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2017, 11:34:40 AM »
[thread drift]

If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]


A few months back I was being treated for a hip problem by the physical therapy department at the nearby VA hospital. The therapy wasn't producing results, so at one session the young lady therapist disappeared into a back room, came back with a book, and thumbed through it. After reading a few pages, she pronounced that she thought I had a torn labrum.

That generated a referral to Orthopedics. The doctors in the specialty clinics are all interns or residents from the nearby teaching hospital, so--basically--medical students. The guy I got was an obnoxious, pompous young ahole. I went through the entire history, described the symptoms, explained the therapy and how it hadn't helped much, and finally got to the therapist's suggestion that I might have a torn labrum. His response?

"Well, she's only a therapist. I'm a doctor, and you're too old to have a torn labrum."

Ooooookay, then. At the next therapy session the young lady asked me what the orthopedic doctor had said, so I told her--verbatim. She smiled, and said, "Actually, I have a doctorate in physical therapy, so I am a doctor." ZAP!

I then dusted off my medicare plan and went to see the sports medicine orthopedic doctor to whom all the other orthopedic docs in the area refer hip problems. He listened to the history, looked at the same x-rays the VA doctor had seen, read the therapy notes, and said, "Yep. You have a torn labrum." Didn't hesitate for a nanosecond.

So much for young Mr. "I'm a doctor, she's only a therapist" at the VA.
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Pb

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2017, 11:38:22 AM »
Thank you Hawkmoon for that story.

I have a rare diseases.  I have also encountered a few doctors who know literally nothing about what they are talking and don't care to look anything up to help me.

K Frame

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2017, 11:41:11 AM »
"I don't see people referring to Madelaine Albright or Colin Powell as "Secretary." Can't figure out why Hillary is different."

You just hate the nobility because they're all better than you.

Here... http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/27/politics/barack-obama-hillary-clinton-gallup/index.html

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dogmush

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2017, 12:12:09 PM »
[thread drift]

If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]


While a nurse could earn a PhD, a doctorate in nursing is called Doctor of Nursing Practice, and is abbreviated DNP.

Mrs. Mush, RN, CCRN, MSN tells me tells me a DNP is called "Doctor" when a title is appropriate.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 09:43:56 PM by dogmush »

rcnixon

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2017, 03:28:02 PM »
That has always bugged me, too.  I apply the same rule to former military persons, such as the SecDef, Mr. Mattis.


That would be Secretary Mattis...

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2017, 04:45:50 PM »
I have been known as "Dr Speed" for decades now in both racing and FM Classic Rock Radio circles. The title was bestowed on me by my brother-in-law back when I was bending wrenches and racing heavily. I road up on my bike with a bag of tools strapped to the back of my TX750 Yamaha twin and he tagged me "Dr Speed" after "Dr Kiley MD" on "Marcus Welby, M.D."



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Hawkmoon

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2017, 06:46:02 PM »

Mrs. Mush, RN, CCRN, MSN tells me tells me a DNP is called "Doctor" when a title is appropriate.

So is a PhD in art history.

To put it all in perspective, many years ago the late Ann Landers asked in one of her columns what we call a person who graduates last in their class at medical school. The answer, of course, is "Doctor."
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HankB

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2017, 07:10:39 PM »
What has always bothered me is that when writing to your congresscritter, the "expected" way to address the envelope is "The Honorable Senator Shecklegrabber"

Someone who wants to be addressed as "Honorable" . . . probably isn't. Especially when he or she is a member of the only distinctively native American criminal class.

I've never worked for the military as a contractor or in any other capacity, so as for addressing former military personnel by their rank rather than their name . . . I'm disinclined to do that; I figure as a civilian, I outrank them anyway.  ;)
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Andiron

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2017, 09:02:59 PM »
Ought to start demanding folks address me as former Lance Criminal.   Navy Fed is always good for it   >:D
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Hawkmoon

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2017, 10:18:04 PM »
I reached the rank of Specialist 5 in Vietnam. If former Secretary of State Clinton gets to be addressed as "Secretary Clinton," then I should be addressed as "Specialist Hawkmoon."
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Scout26

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2017, 11:46:57 PM »
"Doctor" (whether medical or other) is not a title of nobility, but recognition of training and education.


One of the regional managers at Airborne Express was a retired Colonel.  No one called him that.  We all called him "Boss".  The retired Colonel that was a member of my American Legion post we all called "Colonel" not out of any requirement on his or our parts, but out of respect. Same with the retired First Sergeant.  Everyone called him "Top".  The Colonel always said call me "Joe".*  I also knew him outside of the Legion.  (He owned a semi-trailer sales and leasing co.)  His business card read "Joe Smith* Owner".   No mention of his military service.

I never saw the "Military Rank, (Ret.)" unless it was in an letter or e-mail related to military service, e.g. a letter to the editor regarding a military matter.

Again, to my mind, it should be like Cincinnatus.  Once you complete .government service, you go back to being Mr. or Mrs.  If the MSM wants to refer to them as "Former XYZ Mr./Mrs. Abcd" to point to the reason they are giving their opinion/information, that's fine.  But when addressing them directly it should be as "Mr/Mrs. Abcd" and not using their former position/title.






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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2017, 11:52:04 PM »
You can ask as often as you want, Larry. I'm not sure the answer is going to change.  :rofl:


I guess, though, that yes, a Ph.D in nursing could be be called doctor.

I'm thinking that in practice, though, it wouldn't be used.

Probably in writing it would be Jane Doe, Ph.D, RN or similar.

Actually, it would be Jane Doe, DNP (Doctorate of Nursing Practice)

Whoops, just saw that dogmush beat me to it.   
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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2017, 12:06:19 AM »
EN 3rd class, Dr Speed
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HankB

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2017, 12:45:34 AM »
Can't you get yourself named as a Kentucky Colonel or Rhode Island Commodore if you make a political contribution (cough) I mean, do some recognized good work?
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Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

KD5NRH

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2017, 01:22:00 AM »
[thread drift]

If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]

http://www.formsofaddress.info/Nurse.html
Quote
How do you address an envelope to Janice Wilson, a widowed and retired female individual who has her RN and a PhD?
              -- Director of Development, Health & Wellness Center
Dear DODH&WC,
       Nurses (and other professionals in field) typically don't use Dr. in the healthcare environment. Usually only the MD's are so addressed to prevent any confusion by the patients as to who is a 'doctor' and who is not.
       So this nurse would be on an official envelope:
                 Janice Wilson, PhD, RN
       I was assuming this was an official letter ... but maybe it's not. On social correspondence, post-nominals aren't used. So there she could be Dr. (Her Name) or Ms. (Her Name) or Mrs. (Husband's Full Name) if you know one of those is her preference.
       -- Robert Hickey

Oddly, I was fairly certain of this long ago because I dated a RN who was working on a PhD...in CompSci.  She was making a small fortune consulting for a couple of medical software companies on user interface design and hadn't had to wipe anyone else's butt to do it.

KD5NRH

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2017, 01:40:41 AM »
When a police officer retires, he is no longer a police officer and he is no longer called "Officer."

That's not a Federal issue, except in the case of Federal officers.  AFAICT, retired sheriffs and deputies here are often referenced by title when the reference is in any way related to the department.  Same for the retired fire captain in the next county who was critically injured in a wreck (which unfortunately killed his wife and two grandsons) last week; every article I've seen named him as Captain Williams, though honestly, since he trained most of the first responders who worked the wreck, that might have been the only name the media got initially.  City police chiefs often don't retire from that position; they either move on from LE entirely or take a lower position at a larger department. (Voluntarily or not, in either case.)

Firethorn

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2017, 01:44:22 AM »
Can't you get yourself named as a Kentucky Colonel or Rhode Island Commodore if you make a political contribution (cough) I mean, do some recognized good work?

Those are military ranks though, not titles of nobility.  Your kids wouldn't automatically be a Colonel, where if you were appointed to be Sir Hank, Baron of cumsquat, your heir would be Baron of cumsquat upon your death.


Hawkmoon

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2017, 02:54:58 AM »
Those are military ranks though, not titles of nobility.  Your kids wouldn't automatically be a Colonel, where if you were appointed to be Sir Hank, Baron of cumsquat, your heir would be Baron of cumsquat upon your death.


Does Paul McCartney have kids? He's been knighted -- does that mean that any offspring are automatically knights, or whatever the female analog is of knight?

[Dame, I guess.]
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K Frame

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2017, 06:52:57 AM »
"Does Paul McCartney have kids? He's been knighted -- does that mean that any offspring are automatically knights, or whatever the female analog is of knight?"

No. His being knighted means absolutely nothing to his kids, other than their ability to say "My Dad's a knight!"

Being knighted in Britain is an honorific (most often bestowed as part of the annual Honors List) recognizing the individual's contributions to the arts, sciences, charity, etc.

There are numerous levels of "knighthood" in Britain and the Commonwealth, but only the two highest recognize allow the individual to be called either Sir or Dame.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2017, 08:33:14 AM »
Sure, but he can still compete in the joust tournaments.
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K Frame

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Re: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2017, 08:44:38 AM »
Sure, but he can still compete in the joust tournaments.

That's why Steven Hawking hasn't been made a formal knight. They don't want him jousting from his electric wheelchair.  :rofl:

Actually, Hawking was offered an elevation to knighthood from his current position of Commander of the British Empire (CBE), but he refused as a protest over governmental funding for the sciences.
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