Author Topic: Swatting Arrest  (Read 22127 times)

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2017, 05:44:55 PM »
Did he know they were cops?

In the video, there appears to be a cop car parked next to the house.  Also, the flashing red and blue lights on the cruisers might have been a clue.

Quote
Did he understand what was said?

Did he even hear what was said?

He was thrust into a situation not of his making and because he did not behave exactly as the cop wanted he died. That is a ridiculous, unfair, and unjust standard to apply to people. Especially in an allegedly free country.

How much does he need to hear and understand?  Flashing cop lights + people yelling = something bad is happening.

Quote
And I didn't say in-depth investigation. Just a cursory check, maybe peeking through the windows,  maybe quietly asking the neighbors if they heard anything, maybe a phone call.

Again, do you know the timeline of events?  AFAIK, the police haven't released that information.  Maybe the cops did take a minute to look around and asess.  Or maybe they just rolled up on a house and shot the first person they saw.  


How many SWATting calls are responded to every year?  I don't know.  I only hear about the ones that went south.  Maybe, just maybe, cops do their jobs correctly most of the time and we only hear about these rare events because they are rare.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 10:04:58 PM by Fly320s »
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,262
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2017, 05:55:30 PM »
We had an attempt here a few months ago.  There happened to be a deputy less than a mile from the address, so he rolled in dark and quiet, just out of sight of the house and walked in for a look while waiting for backup.  Looked in a window and saw a couple sitting on the couch, watching TV and drinking coffee.  Had dispatch verify the address, then called off his backup had them call the cell company for the caller's phone while he was still on the line.  Total non-event locally, though I understand there was a lot of excitement for LE in the town the phone was traced to; apparently the caller got exactly the response he was trying for, but at his own house.

Amazing what doesn't happen when you do a little old fashioned information gathering rather than grabbing every opportunity to bust out the tacticool toys.

Smart deputy. That man deserves a medal. It's not often you can be a hero for NOT doing something "heroic," but this seems to fit perfectly.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,262
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2017, 06:07:11 PM »

1. In a case of a reported murder, intended arson, and active shooter, you want the dispatcher to react incredulously and delay the response?  Huh.  Tell me more about your (obviously) well-informed theories on emergency response.

I clearly stated that this call was different from a "man with a gun at Walmart" call. That doesn't alter the fact that the responding officers did NOT "know" there was a murder-hostage situation. They could not possibly have known that, because there wasn't one. All they knew was what the dispatcher told them.

Quote
As I understand it, the way it works is there is a call taker who exclusively communicates with the caller.  Their conversation is monitored by a dispatcher who then actually gets on the radio and communicates the situation to police and can ask the call taker to request additional information.

I haven't been in every police department in my county but I have been in more than two -- in the dispatch area. I've never seen or even heard of a police dispatch being operated that way.

Quote
What's funny is that if the whole team had blasted the guy into the dirt, I'm guessing you would have lambasted them for that too.

Well, considering that he was completely innocent -- yes, I would.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2017, 06:50:18 PM »
In the video, there appears to be a cop car parked next to the house.  Also, the flashing red and blue lights on the cruisers might have been a clue.

How much does he need to hear and understand?  Flashing cop lights + people yelling = something bad is happening.

Again, do you know the timeline of events?  AFAIK, the police haven't released that information.  Maybe the cops did take a minute to look around and assess.  Or maybe they just rolled up on a house and shot the first person they saw. 


How many SWATting calls are responded to every year?  I don't know.  I only hear about the ones that went south.  Maybe, just maybe, cops do their jobs correctly most of the time and we only hear about these rare events because they are rare.


Say I'm just sitting in my home in a perfectly law abiding manner minding my own damn business. Now lets say I see police lights shining through the window.
I'm likely to go see what the hell is going on. Now, I know that I haven't done anything illegal. I might be wondering which one of my neighbors has screwed up.
I open my door, hear a bunch of yelling and before I can process WTF is going on I'm dead.
But of course the police were just doing their job so that makes it OK.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Doggy Daddy

  • Poobah
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,333
  • From the saner side of Las Vegas
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2017, 07:26:54 PM »
Say I'm just sitting in my home in a perfectly law abiding manner minding my own damn business. Now lets say I see police lights shining through the window.
I'm likely to go see what the hell is going on. Now, I know that I haven't done anything illegal. I might be wondering which one of my neighbors has screwed up.
I open my door, hear a bunch of yelling and before I can process WTF is going on I'm dead.
But of course the police were just doing their job so that makes it OK.


What he said.
Would you exchange
a walk-on part in a war
for a lead role in a cage?
-P.F.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,738
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2017, 07:56:55 PM »
How much does he need to hear and understand?  Flashing cop lights + people yelling = something bad is happening.

Well, the guy in Arizona tried to comply and still got shot.  Innocent until proven guilty only applies in a courtroom I guess. 

I would like to see full video so we can get an idea of the timeline of events.  That would certainly help.  I would be curious if more video is out there as well. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2017, 07:57:35 PM »
Say I'm just sitting in my home in a perfectly law abiding manner minding my own damn business. Now lets say I see police lights shining through the window.
I'm likely to go see what the hell is going on. Now, I know that I haven't done anything illegal. I might be wondering which one of my neighbors has screwed up.
I open my door, hear a bunch of yelling and before I can process WTF is going on I'm dead.
But of course the police were just doing their job so that makes it OK.


You could look out your window.  You could stay inside and not get involved.  You could get on the phone and call the local police and ask them why a bunch of cops are at your house.  

I bet the first words the police said were something very similar to, “Police!  Put your hands up!  Don’t move.”  Can you process that?  In the video, the man was outside his home for about 10 seconds before he was shot.  Is 10 seconds long enough to process the situation?

I don’t think anything can make this a “good” shoot, but I do think the officer was within his legal authority to use lethal force.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2017, 07:58:35 PM »
Well, the guy in Arizona tried to comply and still got shot.  Innocent until proven guilty only applies in a courtroom I guess. 

I would like to see full video so we can get an idea of the timeline of events.  That would certainly help.  I would be curious if more video is out there as well. 

The guy crawling on the floor?  Bad police work, but justifiable use of force.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,738
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2017, 08:10:27 PM »
The guy crawling on the floor?  Bad police work, but justifiable use of force.
No, it wasn't.  There was no threat.  He had surrendered already.  They created the situation where he was a threat and shot him for movements only with no weapon or threat visible.  It was murder.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,738
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2017, 08:12:36 PM »
You could look out your window.  You could stay inside and not get involved.  You could get on the phone and call the local police and ask them why a bunch of cops are at your house.  

I bet the first words the police said were something very similar to, “Police!  Put your hands up!  Don’t move.”  Can you process that?  In the video, the man was outside his home for about 10 seconds before he was shot.  Is 10 seconds long enough to process the situation?

I don’t think anything can make this a “good” shoot, but I do think the officer was within his legal authority to use lethal force.
IMO, it becomes a case where the cops created the situation they are defending themselves from.  I have trouble classifying that as "good".   
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2017, 08:26:42 PM »
IMO, it becomes a case where the cops created the situation they are defending themselves from.  I have trouble classifying that as "good".   

Cops always create those situations; it is their job.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2017, 08:29:07 PM »
No, it wasn't.  There was no threat.  He had surrendered already.  They created the situation where he was a threat and shot him for movements only with no weapon or threat visible.  It was murder.

Until he is cuffed and searched, he is a threat. 
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,738
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2017, 08:53:13 PM »
I would revise my statements to say I think they are bad shoots.  The specific charges are not up to me.  And I pray that neither myself or any of you ever end up in that situation.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,738
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2017, 08:54:10 PM »
Until he is cuffed and searched, he is a threat. 
Which they were free to do at any time after he went prone, but they chose to have him play Twister and shot him. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,738
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2017, 08:55:03 PM »
Cops always create those situations; it is their job.
Think about that next time you walk past a police officer.  Watch where you move your hands.   =)
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2017, 09:35:40 PM »
Think about that next time you walk past a police officer.  Watch where you move your hands.   =)

As I do to them.  Since neither one of us has intent, all is well.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2017, 09:37:54 PM »
Which they were free to do at any time after he went prone, but they chose to have him play Twister and shot him. 

You are correct.  You are also welcome to step into their shoes and do their jobs better.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,738
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2017, 10:25:49 PM »
You are correct.  You are also welcome to step into their shoes and do their jobs better.
Why would I do that?  It is easier to just accept that innocent people get killed occasionally so police and do their jobs safely. 

I hope everyone has a happy new year. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,262
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2017, 10:46:25 PM »
Say I'm just sitting in my home in a perfectly law abiding manner minding my own damn business. Now lets say I see police lights shining through the window.
I'm likely to go see what the hell is going on. Now, I know that I haven't done anything illegal. I might be wondering which one of my neighbors has screwed up.
I open my door, hear a bunch of yelling and before I can process WTF is going on I'm dead.
But of course the police were just doing their job so that makes it OK.


What he said x2.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,262
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2017, 10:56:06 PM »
You could look out your window.  You could stay inside and not get involved.  You could get on the phone and call the local police and ask them why a bunch of cops are at your house.  

I bet the first words the police said were something very similar to, “Police!  Put your hands up!  Don’t move.”  Can you process that?  In the video, the man was outside his home for about 10 seconds before he was shot.  Is 10 seconds long enough to process the situation?

I don’t think anything can make this a “good” shoot, but I do think the officer was within his legal authority to use lethal force.

You live in New Hampshire, correct? Would that be, perhaps, rural New Hampshire? Like, in the woods, in a house on a lot that's probably anywhere from 3 to 10 acres in size? How long is your driveway? How close is your nearest neighbor?

I live in what is now considered a suburb, but when my parents built the house in 1950 it was rural. They evicted a herd of cows to build the house, and there were cornfields across the road until I was in my teens -- at which time the fields went over to hay. My driveway is 100 yards long, and in the summer I can't see a neighbor's house in any direction. I know if the police are at my house, because if they're at even my nearest neighbor's house I won't see or hear them.

The shooting took place in an urban/suburban neighborhood. I'm sure the houses are close enough that if there were more than two police cars, nobody would know which house they were there for until they assessed and saw which house the attention was focused on. It would not be at all unreasonable to think that an innocent man might see the pretty, flashing lights and hear all the commotion and decide to pop open the front door to see what's going on. Remember, he was innocent. He had NO inkling that they were there for him. Given that he was innocent, have you considered that maybe he thought all those shouted commands were directed toward some actual, like, criminal?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2017, 11:07:50 PM »
Even when the weapon mounted lights were trained on him?

Yes, he was innocent.  Yes, the police should have done a better job.

But...

At the time of the shooting, with what the responding cops were told via dispatch, and how the man responded, the police were justified in using deadly force.   That doesn't make the police right.  That doesn't make this a good shoot. 

But...

The cops involved are innocent of wrongful action.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,623
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2017, 11:20:53 PM »
I clearly stated that this call was different from a "man with a gun at Walmart" call. That doesn't alter the fact that the responding officers did NOT "know" there was a murder-hostage situation. They could not possibly have known that, because there wasn't one. All they knew was what the dispatcher told them.
That's a pedantic point.  Yes, you're right, they didn't "know" all the facts of the case, but they never do when they roll up on the scene.  That's a red herring.  We're talking about how they should respond to a given type of call.  You seem to be suggesting they should be incredulous about every significant call they get instead of taking the call seriously.

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #72 on: January 01, 2018, 03:10:17 AM »
Even when the weapon mounted lights were trained on him?

Yes, he was innocent.  Yes, the police should have done a better job.

But...

At the time of the shooting, with what the responding cops were told via dispatch, and how the man responded, the police were justified in using deadly force.   That doesn't make the police right.  That doesn't make this a good shoot. 

But...

The cops involved are innocent of wrongful action.

This...
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,262
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2018, 12:17:22 PM »
That's a pedantic point.  Yes, you're right, they didn't "know" all the facts of the case, but they never do when they roll up on the scene.  That's a red herring.  We're talking about how they should respond to a given type of call.  You seem to be suggesting they should be incredulous about every significant call they get instead of taking the call seriously.

Perhaps not "incredulous" ... but, if we take the word at its literal meaning then, yes ... even "incredulous." What does "incredulous" mean?

Quote from: Merriam-Webster
Definition of incredulous

1 : unwilling to admit or accept what is offered as true : not credulous : skeptical
2 : incredible 1
3 : expressing incredulity

"Unwilling to accept what is offered as true." Isn't that a poster child for what went wrong here? The cops accepted that the guy at the address they were sent to was a murderer and incipient arsonist, based on nothing more than a telephone call. I don't know if the dispatcher saw a spoofed phone number that appeared to be from the address they were at. If they did, so be it. If they didn't, and didn't check back to see where the call actually came from, more shame on them.

The point is, swatting today is a known phenomenon. Every police department in the country has to know that it happens, and their response plans absolutely need to account for the possibility that any call may be a swatting call. They also need to account for the possibility that every call may be genuine. That complicates their job. I know that. Life today is more complicated for everyone than it was a hundred years ago, fifty years ago, even twenty-five years ago. That's life.

We cannot accept the death of this innocent man as just another case of collateral damage because the police were just doing their job. That doesn't work. An innocent man is DEAD.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Swatting Arrest
« Reply #74 on: January 01, 2018, 01:17:05 PM »
I don't know if the dispatcher saw a spoofed phone number that appeared to be from the address they were at.

I'm pretty sure that is exactly what SWATting does.

Quote
We cannot accept the death of this innocent man as just another case of collateral damage because the police were just doing their job. That doesn't work. An innocent man is DEAD.

You're right.  The person responsible for the innocent man's death should pay dearly.  That person is the kid who mad the SWAT call.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?