The short answer for why am I debating this at all, is because no one else will. It's far too much of a slippery slope for any society to allow a hated segment of society to be judged without representation or advocacy, no matter how heartfelt or understandable our hatred or revulsion. An excellent example was a series of executions of homosexuals (understood by their society to be sex offenders) and gypsies (understood by their society to be unredeemable thieves and reprobates). No one raised their voices at that, and then Hitler turned his attention to the Jews. I would rather stand up and raise my voice for people I disagree with, people I may find repugnant or incomprehensible, than allow such a pattern to begin in my beloved country. That is one reason why I'm willing to do that here in a forum of people whom I respect.
Did you just seriously claim that rapists and child molesters are being persecuted like the homosexuals, Gypsies and Jews under Hitler? Mano... I'm having a real hard time trying to be objective and non-insulting on this one.
The difference between the two groups is so far apart, it boggles the mind. Rapists and child molesters are criminals that commit inhuman acts of torture on often defenseless victims. Which side does this sound like? The Jews in the camps or the Nazis? As you recall, we shot a lot of Nazis and tossed a lot in prison for the remainder of their natural life. I'm not just arguing that it's a bad example you came up with. I seriously question the mind that came up with it. Claiming that monsters deserve compassion too because they are human is one thing. Understandable, even. I question how human they really are, but that's a personal opinion. Saying that they've been persecuted like homosexuals, Gypsies, Jews, etc is another.
Maybe I'm overreacting. But a friend of mine just got back from Poland, where she saw the Nazi concentration camp where her father stayed. Want some photos?
1] There are opportunities for group and individual therapies with the mental health field in every community I've ever been in.
2] Every member in the clergy that I know of is trained in counseling in one fashion or another within my own church, and anecdotal things they've said makes me believe that some of them deal with victims of abuse almost as much as any other issue in their ministries.
3] Perhaps the greatest thing we can do for actual and potential victims today is to be aware and alert that abuse does happen, and if we're suspicious, to do what we can to make sure that NO ONE is being hurt. But we can also love and share our lives w/ victims, showing them that they are not damaged goods no matter how much they struggle with what was done to them, and how they have reacted to the abuse. And I firmly believe that supportive family and friends can be the greatest tool to minister to any wounded person in the whole world.
1) They vary greatly in quality. I know of more than a few cases where sex crime victims were put in therapy groups with "normal" crazy people. Schizophrenics, manic depression, etc. Sex crime victims are NOT crazy, and should not be treated as such.
2) Members of the clergy are excempt from a lot of mandatory-reporting laws. I've met more than a few really good priests. However, I've also seen institutional coverups. See the rash of 'recent' scandals of priests that were actually child molesters. They are very much the except rather than the rule, but it is something to keep in mind.
3) Perhaps the greatest thing we can do for potential victims is increase CCW reform. Dead rapists shot by their potential victim is a very simple solution, and cost effective too. 20 cents of ammo is cheaper than $20k per year in prison costs. Oh yes, and work on laws that restrict civil suits from felons injured in commission of a crime. (ie, if someone shoots an attempted rapist, he can't get the last laugh by suing the victim for defending himself/herself.)
That won't help children, and adults under 21. But it's a start. I'm a big believer in self-defense courses and martial arts training for kids. Encouraging kids to come forth is not easy. Many are subject to conditioning/coercion/pressure, fear of being blamed, self-blame, fear of/for the molester, etc. We really need to overhaul the various Child Protective Services. There are PLENTY of horror stories of kids being handed back over to rapists and child molesters dispite plenty of evidence, and innocent parents being harassed without a single shred of evidence. Typical govt "we're here to help" behavior, in other words.
"Prof. Frenken is wrong with his believed 90% recidivism rate; it is only a belief, not a result of research. I have never seen any reference to any research report that supports his 90%. Careful meta-analytic research results in an average recidivism rate of 13.4% generally, and 12.7% for 'child molesters'." -Dr. Frans Gieles in an overview of 61 different studies of recidivism in sex offenders.
http://www.humanbeing.demon.nl/humanbei & divism.htm
Gee, I was real interested in this "Dr. Frans Gieles." So I did a google search...
http://www.humanbeing.demon.nl/humanbeingsweb/Library/ethics.htm"Ethics and human rights in intergenerational relationships "
Intergenerational Relationships is the polite way of saying "Child molester".
http://www.humanbeing.demon.nl/humanbeingsweb/Library/I_DIDNT_KNOW_HOW.html"The local mores and customs also play a role, as openness about children's sex lives is not always appreciated. Children often have to be sexual in secret. Homosexuality is for many youngsters a big taboo. This can bring many problems and insecurity. If the sub-culture in which they live is relaxed and strong enough, then children can find support in that environment."
YOU ARE QUOTING A PEDOPHILE ON HIS OPINIONS OF RECIDIVISM! WHAT DID YOU THINK HE WAS GOING TO SAY?
This one takes the cake...
http://home.tiscali.nl/~ti137156/helping/background.htm"How do we look at our clients, the people with pedophilic feelings? Our view will influence our way of working.
So, if we view perversion or sickness, we try to heal it. Especially if we have moral reasons for it. This has been tried by therapists who for these reasons have treated gays and lesbians, trying to change them 'from sickness into health', thus from homosexuality into heterosexuality. Recent research showed 'success' (which is even doubted by the authors) with only 6 out of 202 respondents.
Just like having homosexual desires, the feeling of pedophilic desires is not a perversion per se. In my lecture, I referred to Nagayama Hall, Hirschman & Oliver, who say that more than 25% of a sample of normal men reacted to 'pedophilic stimuli'. If we read the article, we will see that only female pedophilic stimuli are given to men. If the researchers had also used boys as stimuli, the percentage would have been higher. If they also had women in their sample, supposedly the percentage would have been even higher. In my estimation, this includes one-third of the adult population. One cannot say that one-third of a population that functions on a normal level, should be perverted. With a supposed a two-third majority and a one-third minority, one can scarcely speak about deviance. In my view, we are speaking about a variance. "
"If sexual experiences of children and youths with adults were always harmful, it would be difficult to defend the self-help method. But there is not always harm. Rind, Bauserman and Tromovitch have published a meta-analysis in which they have re-analyzed 59 studies using college samples. Negative effects were reported in about 25% of the cases, especially for girls - not 100%, which is widely thought. In the cases that reported harm, the family environment was a factor that was 10 times stronger than the sexual experiences. "
Want more proof this "Doctor" is a freak?
http://home.wanadoo.nl/ipce/library_two/Read and weep.
Dude, I seriously am questioning your intentions. You are at BEST attempting to excuse the the preditory nature of these criminals and the damage they cause. You are trying to validate their behavior. There is no validation for raping or molesting children, mate.
But it's hypocritical to lock away some of the safest of all prisoners because we find their behavior more repulsive when we let other life-destroying criminals far more likely to hurt others walk free.
And AGAIN, I'm not ignoring victims. In order to get help and to see justice, sex offenders need to be turned in. I believe that excessive punishment prevents victims from seeking justice, and that is something else that I cannot stomach. It's hard enough for a child to send their father away for years. How many more victims would remain silent if simply trying to stop getting hurt and to get help meant condemning someone they cared about or trusted to death or life in prison?
Did you just call these freaks "some of the safest of all prisoners"? Are we talking about the same class of criminal? People that rape and molest children "safe"? What class of criminal is worse than a pedophile, someone who rapes and/or molests children? What class of criminal is more life destroying?
You're saying "excessive" punishment is a bad thing. What do you see as a proper level of punishment, then?
I firmly believe that killing offenders would reduce caught and convicted sex offenders risk to zero.
Only in my wildest dreams and hopes would it drop it to zero. If it dropped to zero, it would only be due to fact all of these freaks stopping their behavior. Killing these freaks would stop them from harming any future victims. Obviously execution should be reserved for the truly sickest of these criminals. If it deterred other freaks, good.
Silence only allow sexual abuse to grow and flourish. Any policy that encourages silence is unacceptable.
As the original article I quoted stated: We need to find a system that ENCOURAGES offenders to come forward, accept responsibility, and seek treatment.
Agreed. Any policy that also gets these freaks off the hook or encourages their behavior is also unacceptable.
As for your original article, I looked up the docs associated with the web site.
The president of that organization is Murray Schane, M.D. He's also in charge of the Finance Committee for MaleSurvivor. License No. 117242. He was placed on probation (Order #BPMC 01-105) by the New York State Board for Professional Medical Conduct for professional misconduct for "practicing the profession of medicine with negligence on more than one occasion", with the option of taking his license.
This included inappropriately prescribed medications (Dexedrine, Klonopin, Lorazepam, Prozac and other drugs), failure to create and maintain proper medical records, and "failure to perform an adequate physical examination, if any".
I have the PDF of this. Want a copy?
On a hunch, I checked the by-laws of MaleSurvivor. In Section 1.1 Name, they call themselves "MaleSurvivor: The National Organization against Male Sexual Victimization (MS:NOMSV) ". Under Section 8.4 Charitable Organization, they claim that they are " a charitable organization under the Federal Tax Code known as 501(c)3". This is also supported by their claims that "All donations are tax deductable (US Residents)"
http://www.malesurvivor.org/About%20Us/bylaws.htmhttp://www.malesurvivor.org/About%20Us/legacyfund.htmI checked Publication 78, the IRS's list of all 501(c)3's and charitable organizations.
http://apps.irs.gov/app/pub78http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/eopub78.zip (Warning, compressed it's 12 megs, uncompressed it's 112 megs.)
Guess what's not listed? "MaleSurvivor", "National Organization against Male Sexual Victimization", "MS:NOMSV", "NOMSV". That's right. If I didn't know better, I'd swear the organization was committing tax fraud. I'd almost swear that's a felony, probably more than one. Do the search yourself, maybe I missed it. I doubt it, I did every permutation I could think of. Even looked up the address and tried that. No dice.
I know an IRS investigator that might be really interested in this information....