Fly320s - Do You Remember How to VOR?

[Ben]

Fly320s, if you're flying out West, you might need to hit the VOR. 

I thought this was interesting, as I'm sure GPS jamming has been included in past exercises, but it appears they may be playing with new tech or methods that increase the jamming power/range. It appears the only civilian infrastructure that will (mostly) be affected is civilian air traffic in the area, which means that if pilots follow standard practices, they will know about it. I'm curious though, if it will bleed over to affect other stuff. It looks like it will be intermittently occurring over a two week period.

http://amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/the-war-zone/17987/usaf-is-jamming-gps-in-the-western-u-s-for-largest-ever-red-flag-air-war-exercise?source=dam

[MechAg94]

So some people might have to actually navigate?  At least those concrete arrows are still in the ground in some places. 

[Fly320s]

The Air Force has done that in years past, just on a smaller scale. 

Yes, I can navigate by VORs, but why would I?  I have inertial navigation and area navigation built in to the plane.  And if I get desperate I can ask one of the ATC bots for vectors.   

The lack of GPS will only affect my approach capability.  I won't be able to fly GPS-based approaches, but I don't do many of those anyway.

At least those concrete arrows are still in the ground in some places.

I saw one of those many years ago.  Pretty cool to actually see it instead of reading about it.

If all else fails, I'll pull up Google maps and do a little pilotage.

[Scout26]

Throw in some evasive maneuvers to give your passengers a thrill and something to talk about when all their carryons tumble out of the overheads.

You can blame it on the Chair Force....

[Hawkmoon]

If all else fails, I'll pull up Google maps and do a little pilotage.

What, no AAA at 30,000 feet?

[Fly320s]

What, no AAA at 30,000 feet?

We aren't allowed to carry anti-aircraft artillery.

[KD5NRH]

If all else fails, I'll pull up Google maps and do a little pilotage.

How low do you have to get to read the highway signs at that speed?

[Fly320s]

How low do you have to get to read the highway signs at that speed?

Road signs?  Hell, if I know what state I'm in that is good enough.

[Hawkmoon]

We aren't allowed to carry anti-aircraft artillery.

Well played, Sir.

I was, of course, referring to the American Automobile Association and their free (for members) road maps.

"Just find I-10 and follow that from Tucson to Dallas."

[Jamisjockey]

Pretty sure most modern aircraft will VOR/airway/jetway navigate via fms too.  Doesn't require too much fancy work on the chauffeur's part.

[KD5NRH]

Pretty sure most modern aircraft will VOR/airway/jetway navigate via fms too.  Doesn't require too much fancy work on the chauffeur's part.

Or the old fashioned way; if there's a really strong FM station near the top of the dial in the destination city, skip the NDB and find that on the ADF.

Used to be pretty much the standard here.  The NDB was ancient and barely detectable from the runway, while the radio station across town could be heard out past 150 miles from a moderate altitude.  You could even spot it happening from the ground; pilots head to the west end of town, turn to follow US377 east to the airport, then swing wide into the pattern once they spot the runway. 

[Fly320s]

Or the old fashioned way; if there's a really strong FM station near the top of the dial in the destination city, skip the NDB and find that on the ADF.

Used to be pretty much the standard here.  The NDB was ancient and barely detectable from the runway, while the radio station across town could be heard out past 150 miles from a moderate altitude.  You could even spot it happening from the ground; pilots head to the west end of town, turn to follow US377 east to the airport, then swing wide into the pattern once they spot the runway. 

That works well, if you have an ADF in the plane.  We don’t.

My FIL has told me many stories, or the same story many times, about receiving a strong AM station in the DFW area and navigating to that from Washington state.  I think it was KRLD 1080.

[Jamisjockey]

Or the old fashioned way; if there's a really strong FM station near the top of the dial in the destination city, skip the NDB and find that on the ADF.

Used to be pretty much the standard here.  The NDB was ancient and barely detectable from the runway, while the radio station across town could be heard out past 150 miles from a moderate altitude.  You could even spot it happening from the ground; pilots head to the west end of town, turn to follow US377 east to the airport, then swing wide into the pattern once they spot the runway.  

Or just call those annoying ATC types and get vectors 😂

Side note
Most NDB’s have been decommissioned and a number of VORs are being turned off as well.

[KD5NRH]

That works well, if you have an ADF in the plane.  We don’t.

Seems like the more logical route to go there would be the other way; make it as broadband as possible so it can use pretty much any radio signal.  At least all the broadcast bands.  Then if all the normal nav options go down the toilet, you still have an option to get within visual range of a known city.
Of course, Airbus probably figures if all the other nav options are gone, the plane is going to be crashing itself soon anyway.

My FIL has told me many stories, or the same story many times, about receiving a strong AM station in the DFW area and navigating to that from Washington state.  I think it was KRLD 1080.

I think for a while KRLD had a better antenna location than WBAP, because it would come in consistently stronger in the daytime here.  Both are 50kW.  Oddly, so is WOAI in San Antonio, but I pick up WGN and WLS from Chicago a lot more often than WOAI, and I can usually get WBAP on a car radio from downtown San Antonio.

[dogmush]

Seems like the more logical route to go there would be the other way; make it as broadband as possible so it can use pretty much any radio signal.  At least all the broadcast bands.  Then if all the normal nav options go down the toilet, you still have an option to get within visual range of a known city.
Of course, Airbus probably figures if all the other nav options are gone, the plane is going to be crashing itself soon anyway.

Meh.  It's another piece of equipment to mount, keep working, another antenna hanging off the aircraft, all for a very low probability event (all the other systems go down).

ADF's have been taken off ships as well.  The topside real estate the antenna was taking up is more valuable doing other stuff.  If all the nav systems on my boat go down to the point that I'm like "Damn, I wish I still had an ADF" I'm just busting out a sextant.

ETA: Flys320s, I have a working bubble sextant with altitude correction you can borrow if you want. 

[Ben]

Side note
Most NDB’s have been decommissioned and a number of VORs are being turned off as well.

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall reading a few years ago that it might eventually be most/all VORs and even TACANs?

[Jamisjockey]

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall reading a few years ago that it might eventually be most/all VORs and even TACANs?

ADSB is the future.

[p12]

You have a compass. What more does one need?

[Jamisjockey]

You have a compass. What more does one need?

A $10,000 fine and license suspension for violating restricted airspace?

[KD5NRH]

ADF's have been taken off ships as well.  The topside real estate the antenna was taking up is more valuable doing other stuff.  If all the nav systems on my boat go down to the point that I'm like "Damn, I wish I still had an ADF" I'm just busting out a sextant.

So you're still lugging around a sextant, full set of sight reduction tables, slide rule and highly accurate purely mechanical chronometer to navigate after the EMP, but an ADF is too much weight and bulk before it happens?

ETA: Flys320s, I have a working bubble sextant with altitude correction you can borrow if you want.

Does Airbus still make anything with an overhead window/periscope/whatever, or do they offer a digital projection system to show the stars they think you should see?

[Fly320s]

Unless a sextant is some kind of sex toy, I aint interested.  If I want to work, I’ll go get a job.

The A320 has inertial nav, RNAV, GPS, and VOR navigation capabilities.  Plus we have Jamis and his comrades to steer us.   And sometimes I can look out the window and see where I am.  I don’t think a sextant can help.

[dogmush]

So you're still lugging around a sextant, full set of sight reduction tables, slide rule and highly accurate purely mechanical chronometer to navigate after the EMP, but an ADF is too much weight and bulk before it happens?

Does Airbus still make anything with an overhead window/periscope/whatever, or do they offer a digital projection system to show the stars they think you should see?

No on those two, I use a calculator.  I have a couple chronometers.

If an EMP happens I don't need to full on "navigate".  Head for land on the mag compass and pick up visual piloting when I get see it.

We are do to get an inertial nav system on our next upgrade though.  That'll be fun.

My point stands that an ADF was bulky and not great at it's job.  Once we're in to 4th and 5th backups for nav systems, it's not worth keeping.  Which is why many of the radio nav stations are being shut down.

And sometimes I can look out the window and see where I am.  I don’t think a sextant can help.

Pshaw!  Get in touch with your inner B-17 crew.

[Ben]

Which is why many of the radio nav stations are being shut down.

LORAN for the win! 

They must all be shut down by now.

[Fly320s]

LORAN for the win! 

They must all be shut down by now.

No!

eLoran is alive, from what I can tell. 

[KD5NRH]

If an EMP happens I don't need to full on "navigate".  Head for land on the mag compass and pick up visual piloting when I get see it.

I wonder if anybody bothered to check how far out a nuke-based EMP screws up magnetic compasses when they were experimenting with such things.

My point stands that an ADF was bulky and not great at it's job.

It does have a distinct advantage if the RF emitter is the goal, though.  (As in, target or exactly at the desired waypoint.)  And given the crappy NDB here, I can't imagine nobody ever came up with the idea of temporary man-portable ones for things like designating a temporary landing site.  (Obviously completely insecure, but sometimes you just want to mark a good-enough section of flat ground and don't care who knows.)