Author Topic: Too many Americans are going to college: What's Wrong With Vocational School?  (Read 6747 times)

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats


http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009535
Quote
What's Wrong With Vocational School?
Too many Americans are going to college.

BY CHARLES MURRAY
Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:01 a.m.

The topic yesterday was education and children in the lower half of the intelligence distribution. Today I turn to the upper half, people with IQs of 100 or higher. Today's simple truth is that far too many of them are going to four-year colleges.

Begin with those barely into the top half, those with average intelligence. To have an IQ of 100 means that a tough high-school course pushes you about as far as your academic talents will take you. If you are average in math ability, you may struggle with algebra and probably fail a calculus course. If you are average in verbal skills, you often misinterpret complex text and make errors in logic.

These are not devastating shortcomings. You are smart enough to engage in any of hundreds of occupations. You can acquire more knowledge if it is presented in a format commensurate with your intellectual skills. But a genuine college education in the arts and sciences begins where your skills leave off.

In engineering and most of the natural sciences, the demarcation between high-school material and college-level material is brutally obvious. If you cannot handle the math, you cannot pass the courses*. In the humanities and social sciences, the demarcation is fuzzier. It is possible for someone with an IQ of 100 to sit in the lectures of Economics 1, read the textbook, and write answers in an examination book. But students who cannot follow complex arguments accurately are not really learning economics. They are taking away a mishmash of half-understood information and outright misunderstandings that probably leave them under the illusion that they know something they do not. (A depressing research literature documents one's inability to recognize one's own incompetence.) Traditionally and properly understood, a four-year college education teaches advanced analytic skills and information at a level that exceeds the intellectual capacity of most people.

There is no magic point at which a genuine college-level education becomes an option, but anything below an IQ of 110 is problematic. If you want to do well, you should have an IQ of 115 or higher. Put another way, it makes sense for only about 15% of the population, 25% if one stretches it, to get a college education. And yet more than 45% of recent high school graduates enroll in four-year colleges. Adjust that percentage to account for high-school dropouts, and more than 40% of all persons in their late teens are trying to go to a four-year college--enough people to absorb everyone down through an IQ of 104.

No data that I have been able to find tell us what proportion of those students really want four years of college-level courses, but it is safe to say that few people who are intellectually unqualified yearn for the experience, any more than someone who is athletically unqualified for a college varsity wants to have his shortcomings exposed at practice every day. They are in college to improve their chances of making a good living. What they really need is vocational training. But nobody will say so, because "vocational training" is second class. "College" is first class.

Large numbers of those who are intellectually qualified for college also do not yearn for four years of college-level courses. They go to college because their parents are paying for it and college is what children of their social class are supposed to do after they finish high school. They may have the ability to understand the material in Economics 1 but they do not want to. They, too, need to learn to make a living--and would do better in vocational training.

Combine those who are unqualified with those who are qualified but not interested, and some large proportion of students on today's college campuses--probably a majority of them--are looking for something that the four-year college was not designed to provide. Once there, they create a demand for practical courses, taught at an intellectual level that can be handled by someone with a mildly above-average IQ and/or mild motivation. The nation's colleges try to accommodate these new demands. But most of the practical specialties do not really require four years of training, and the best way to teach those specialties is not through a residential institution with the staff and infrastructure of a college**. It amounts to a system that tries to turn out televisions on an assembly line that also makes pottery. It can be done, but it's ridiculously inefficient.

Government policy contributes to the problem by making college scholarships and loans too easy to get, but its role is ancillary. The demand for college is market-driven, because a college degree does, in fact, open up access to jobs that are closed to people without one. The fault lies in the false premium that our culture has put on a college degree.

For a few occupations, a college degree still certifies a qualification. For example, employers appropriately treat a bachelor's degree in engineering as a requirement for hiring engineers***. But a bachelor's degree in a field such as sociology, psychology, economics, history or literature certifies nothing. It is a screening device for employers. The college you got into says a lot about your ability, and that you stuck it out for four years says something about your perseverance. But the degree itself does not qualify the graduate for anything. There are better, faster and more efficient ways for young people to acquire credentials to provide to employers.

The good news is that market-driven systems eventually adapt to reality, and signs of change are visible. One glimpse of the future is offered by the nation's two-year colleges.**** They are more honest than the four-year institutions about what their students want and provide courses that meet their needs more explicitly. Their time frame gives them a big advantage--two years is about right for learning many technical specialties, while four years is unnecessarily long.

Advances in technology are making the brick-and-mortar facility increasingly irrelevant. Research resources on the Internet will soon make the college library unnecessary. Lecture courses taught by first-rate professors are already available on CDs and DVDs for many subjects, and online methods to make courses interactive between professors and students are evolving. Advances in computer simulation are expanding the technical skills that can be taught without having to gather students together in a laboratory or shop. These and other developments are all still near the bottom of steep growth curves. The cost of effective training will fall for everyone who is willing to give up the trappings of a campus. As the cost of college continues to rise, the choice to give up those trappings will become easier.

A reality about the job market must eventually begin to affect the valuation of a college education: The spread of wealth at the top of American society has created an explosive increase in the demand for craftsmen. Finding a good lawyer or physician is easy. Finding a good carpenter, painter, electrician, plumber, glazier, mason--the list goes on and on--is difficult, and it is a seller's market. Journeymen craftsmen routinely make incomes in the top half of the income distribution while master craftsmen can make six figures. They have work even in a soft economy. Their jobs cannot be outsourced to India. And the craftsman's job provides wonderful intrinsic rewards that come from mastery of a challenging skill that produces tangible results. How many white-collar jobs provide nearly as much satisfaction?

Even if forgoing college becomes economically attractive, the social cachet of a college degree remains. That will erode only when large numbers of high-status, high-income people do not have a college degree and don't care. The information technology industry is in the process of creating that class, with Bill Gates and Steve Jobs as exemplars. It will expand for the most natural of reasons: A college education need be no more important for many high-tech occupations than it is for NBA basketball players or cabinetmakers. Walk into Microsoft or Google with evidence that you are a brilliant hacker, and the job interviewer is not going to fret if you lack a college transcript. The ability to present an employer with evidence that you are good at something, without benefit of a college degree, will continue to increase, and so will the number of skills to which that evidence can be attached. Every time that happens, the false premium attached to the college degree will diminish.

Most students find college life to be lots of fun (apart from the boring classroom stuff), and that alone will keep the four-year institution overstocked for a long time. But, rightly understood, college is appropriate for a small minority of young adults--perhaps even a minority of the people who have IQs high enough that they could do college-level work if they wished. People who go to college are not better or worse people than anyone else; they are merely different in certain interests and abilities. That is the way college should be seen. There is reason to hope that eventually it will be.

Mr. Murray is the W.H. Brady Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. This is the second in a three-part series, concluding tomorrow.

Copyright © 2007 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.






* No freakin' joke.  My graduating class of fellow Physics bacculaurates consisted of me...and me.  There were quite a few others who had declared physics majors a couple years prior.  The vast majority either dropped out of school or switched to something less rigorous.  The running joke was that the Junior & Senior declared physics majors were not allowed to travel in the same conveyance, as a single  car wreck or hand grenade could kill us all.

** We refer to the IT guys who went to college & got their 4 year degree or MS/Oracle/Cisco/whatever certification as "paper tigers."  Such paper is no substitute for gettin' your hands dirty with the hardware & software. 

*** Some make exceptions for the poor, benighted souls who majored in physics but have lotsa hands-on with their & their competitors' hardware, by way of Uncle Sam.

**** Yep, my wife, in looking for an occupation more family-friendly than corporate finance, has latched on to a RN (Registered Nurse) training/cert program at the local community college.  The ROI (in time & especially $$$) for the students of the program is astounding.  I can think of no other course of training & study that has such a high ROI.  My step-mom did something similar, way back in the day.  She is a RN "diploma nurse" who got her RN cert & a diploma, but not a degree.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,797
*as someone currently taking quantum mechanics, I encounter this truth every day.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
*as someone currently taking quantum mechanics, I encounter this truth every day.

Have you reached the point where you ask yourself, "Maybe I ought to have majored in math before majoring in physics?"  Physics is hard.  Learning physics while simultaneously teaching yourself the math required for the physics is harder.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

cosine

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,734
You've posted several very interesting articles today, jfruser. Thanks.
Andy

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,797
Yes, the more math you know, the easier physics is. Consequently, it is very difficult for me.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
I read this article this morning.  It is incredibly good, which means he will probably be slammed as an elitist snob.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,071
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Sometimes I wish more people would attend vocational school.  There are a bunch of people in the workplace who think that their degree means the world owes them a job.  A couple of years in vocational school would at least pound into them that the world has other priorities and sometimes it helps to actually to have hands-on experience at something.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
I think a lot of it has to do with education inflation. A lot of jobs now require a BA or BS just to even be considered and these jobs really don't require a 4 year degree to work the position.

Jobs that used to require a HS diploma now require a AA degree, AA degree jobs now require a BA/BA

-Charby
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

drewtam

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,985
I think a lot of it has to do with education inflation. A lot of jobs now require a BA or BS just to even be considered and these jobs really don't require a 4 year degree to work the position.

Jobs that used to require a HS diploma now require a AA degree, AA degree jobs now require a BA/BA

-Charby

I think thats a major and real driving factor. Its not just students/young people who give vocational schools a stigma. But the manager who is doing the hiring that has an MBA, usually gives vocational schools a stigma.

Also add
   1. college grads are statistically "smarter", wealthier, and honored in society
+ 2. correlation=causation
=
   3. College education is a 'right' to every potential student, because everyone has a right to be smart and rich and honored

Drew
I’m not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The… tactleneck!

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
The most successful  person I know (successful in business, and in social life, and in happiness) doesn't have a college degree.  He came from a upper middle class family in which it was expected that all of the children would go to college.  He went away to college, but within 6 weeks he had decided that college was a bunch of BS.  He promptly left school and opened an insurance company.  By the time his siblings graduated, his business was the best in city.  By the time his siblings had paid off their student loans, his company was one of the biggest in New York. 

A typical private college education runs something like $100,000 in total.  Skilfully invested for 4 years those hundred G's becomes 150 or 200 G's, at which point the interest earned upon that principle will roughly equal the increase in income your college degree would have afforded you.  While you're waiting for that principle to grow, do something productive with your time: take an apprenticeship, backpack around in Europe, join the Peace Corps, join the Marine Corps.  Don't waste that time in a mind-numbing "Institute of Higher Learning", get out into the world and actually learn something.  You'll come out the backside with more money, more income, and far greater capacity for exploiting your life. 

I've spent the better part of the past 7 years muddling my way through a college degree.  Had I known back when I started how much it would cost in terms of money, effort, and time, I really doubt I would have proceeded this way.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
As someone with both a commercial driver's license and state of CA EMT certs I appreciate this. Makes me feel a lot better about the whole "leaving college to join the Marines" thing.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"

I think thats a major and real driving factor. Its not just students/young people who give vocational schools a stigma. But the manager who is doing the hiring that has an MBA, usually gives vocational schools a stigma.

Also add
   1. college grads are statistically "smarter", wealthier, and honored in society
+ 2. correlation=causation
=
   3. College education is a 'right' to every potential student, because everyone has a right to be smart and rich and honored

Drew

I agree and would add the following:
Before WW2 college was not common.  Most people left school and went and got jobs.  Of course, the skill level of the average high school grad was a lot higher than today: they could read, write reasonably well, and do math.
After WW2 the gov't came up with the GI Bill to keep people out of the workforce.  Colleges expanded to accomodate all the GIs coming back.  That expansion fueled demand for students because you can't just fire tenured professors.  So gov't created a huge bunch of subsidies for middle class people as Pell Grants, loans, etc.  Lower the price, you sell more.  College became relatively cheap so more people went.  You have more college grads now so employers can tighten their hiring requirements by insisting on degrees. 
Kind of a vicious circle.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

natedog

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
Not enough chicks. Or beer.  grin

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Not enough chicks. Or beer.  grin

natedog,

The girls in college don't want the "college boy" types, as a non-collegiate they are your natural prey.

Mommy's little angel doesn't want the middle class boys she grew up with, she's away from home and wants danger and excitement.  They want the guys like athletes (who aren't really supposed to be in college) and the local firemen / construction worker / military / biker / cowboy / indian chief types.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Sylvilagus Aquaticus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 833
    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/sylvilagus
T'aint nuthin' wrong with trade school.

The youngest Incubus wants to go to one of the local jr. colleges (now community colleges- makes the kids feel better...you're going to a 'real college') and attend the automotive technology program. Used to be, they called it auto shop, but they gots them 'pooters in cars now. They tell him he can make a hunnert grand a year fixin' Toyoters an' Chevys.  Trouble is, unless he gets in the program where he's sponsored by a major regional dealership, he'll have to do prerequisites such as mathematics, English, reading and such, as that's the curricula for the Associates program rather than the certificate program.

The Incubus isn't dumb, per se, just lazy and can't/doesn't read. He likes that spontaneous gratification fast-track.

He enrolled to his 'groundwork' classes last semester. Dropped 15 hours, and at the end he was still enrolled in 3 hours; a humanities class. Lives at home, doesn't work, all is provided for him. (Sounds familiar to me) I haven't seen a final grade from last semester.

Older Incubus bumped around in State college, commuinty college; decided he didn't like it. I suggested he check into EMT/firefighter programs, since he seems to be wired that way as far as his personality. To my surprise, he did. Attended and graduated from a local fire academy at the top of his class, worked for an ambulance transport service while working on his paramedic cert, then contracted through an agency to provide EMT services at the county jail. Last month he got hired on in one of the suburbs as an EMT/PM/firefighter.

I wish we had more of the European/German style of trade school available here. Apply to the school, test with them for aptitude, study while getting hands-on and become an apprentice.  We've got friends who have 2 sons in Houston going through one of the (expensive) diesel technician schools. Both seem to be doing well and are committed to their studies. They should be out in the real world soon and have prospects of a good livelihood ahead of them that won't be subject to market fluctuations or economic vagarities.

Me? I have about 17 years of college. I only marginally work in any area in which I studied, but I use every one of the things I learned every day...except maybe that whole kayaking thing.

Regards,
Rabbit.


To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.
Albert Einstein

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,742
I agree especially with his last statements about job satisfaction.  I think a lot of people out there are wired to get job satisfaction from things they can see and feel and touch.  You can't do that with a middle management job.  However, a carpenter can see the house he built.  My Dad could look at buildings around Houston and know he helped install the fire protection systems.  There is a lot of satisfaction and well being in that.  I know a guy with an accounting degree that install computer systems in banks.  He is good with the software, but loves the small company he works for since he gets to put his hands on the hardware as well.  I am plant engineer and can at least look around and see project that I did or was a part of.  Sometimes you hear an operator or maintenance guy say something positive about something you helped install or improve.  It makes your whole day.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Sylvilagus Aquaticus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 833
    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/sylvilagus
MechAg and Carebear hit on something I failed to mention. Incubus #1, the firefighter, is cohabitating with a tall, hot blonde 4 years older than he, with a MBA who is going to law school. She scored 180 on her LSAT.

They do like the bad boys who get their hands dirty.

Regards,
Rabbit.
To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.
Albert Einstein

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Great article! 

Quote
Put another way, it makes sense for only about 15% of the population, 25% if one stretches it, to get a college education. And yet more than 45% of recent high school graduates enroll in four-year colleges.

I'm betting that about 2/3 of those who enter college never graduate- at least that was about the graduation rate at the university I attended.

Quote
For a few occupations, a college degree still certifies a qualification. For example, employers appropriately treat a bachelor's degree in engineering as a requirement for hiring engineers***. But a bachelor's degree in a field such as sociology, psychology, economics, history or literature certifies nothing.
Yeppers. In the places that I've worked, if you don't have a BS or MS in Chemistry or Biochemistry, your resume goes directly into the shredder. No offense to others here who may have a humanities or liberal arts degree, but people in my field have little respect for degrees that are not in physical sciences. A lot of the chemistry programs usually weed out the 'wannabes' in the first semester- they make the freshman chemistry courses so rediculously hard that you: A. have to be very intelligent or B. need to have perseverence or mental health issues to want to continue the major- I fall mostly into category B. At the end of your chemistry career at the University they throw a monster of a course at you called Physical Chemistry, some of of my colleagues still have nightmares about the class- I've turned to alcohol to drown those demons.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Antibubba

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,836
Quote
I think a lot of it has to do with education inflation. A lot of jobs now require a BA or BS just to even be considered and these jobs really don't require a 4 year degree to work the position.

Whereas in a trade, if you can't put it together there is no faking it.  I have a BA in Philosophy, so trust me on this.
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,207
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Quote
Yeppers. In the places that I've worked, if you don't have a BS or MS in Chemistry or Biochemistry, your resume goes directly into the shredder.

Heh... Where I used to work, a lot of the researchers thought that I'd migrated into the communications end via a BA in one of the sciences.

It was in public relations. I just try to learn.
 
Blog under construction

JonnyB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 762
I'm in my early 50's, with an early background in various construction fields - building construction, heavy equipment, heavy trucks. I went to a two-year vocational school (R&D Electronics tech) when I was 'bout 30. Competing with recent high-school grads, many of whom had higher math in school, I came out at the top of the class, with the highest grades that the instructors had seen. As Will Sonnet said in the old series - "No brag; just fact".

I'm employed as a telecomm guy - in house tech (the only one in the place) with about 2000 lines, 4 switches, VoIP, etc., and making around $60k with really decent bennies. In the mid-90's, at a former employer, I made about $70k, after starting in the mid-$20's in '87.

A niece has her PhD in chemistry, is 31 years old, working for a research facility in Southern California. She did her 'walk' for the degree about a year ago - about 12 years to get the degree! Her income? I thought you'd never ask. About $35k. She can't afford to live where she works. Luckily, she has a husband also working, so between the two, they can eke out a living. When she's 50, though, she may be making well North of $100k; we'll see.

jb
Jon has a long mustache. No, really; he does. Look at that thing!

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,634
Quote from: jfruser
Learning physics while simultaneously teaching yourself the math required for the physics is harder.
This problem is exacerbated when the parallel math courses are taught by mathmatics professors.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Fudgieghost

  • New Member
  • Posts: 63
Rabbi: yes, getting a college degree is a club in which you are forced to join.  College is a business like any other----and colleges have figured out a way to make sure they have a steady supply of business---make it so that if you don't have what they're selling (degree) it's hard to get employed, or you have the stink of "loser".  Nice.

I work with union teamsters and carpenters in NYC and the surrounding area.  Most of those guys are in their forties---I don't see many young people coming into the field.  But these guys make good money as they work alot of OT.  But no young person wants to go into a trade today as it is looked down upon.  All the soccer moms and dad want to brag about their children going to this or that Ivy league school.

One result of all this is that many middle and upper middle class people, especially younger people, never have much real interaction with working types.  This creates a chasm between classes that, IMO, is not healthy for a community or nation.  Also, I find many people, especially younger ones have no clue as to how the world works.   One on level, that means they don't realize what it takes to do hard physical labor.  This is no small thing.  I think if a person has worked on a job, for a good amount of time, that is really HARD WORK, they get a better appreciation of people, work, and the world in general.  Many young people today enjoy a cushy life while in school, go on to some white collar job . . . (don't get me wrong, they may work hard at their jobs, have pressure, etc., ) and never come to realize what it takes, say to install the carpeting in their offices, or install drywall, etc. 

I don't know -----I just feel many people, (again, especially younger middle class types, esp. in the 'burbs) are in some basic ways removed from realities that would help them better appreciate the world in general--and give them a REAL understanding of diversity.  "Diversity" doesn't mean people who look different from you but think the same.

My oldest son is very high functioning---he's gradutating from Cooper Union this spring with a mech. enginerrng degree, and hopes to go on to get his graduate degree from Columbia.  His younger brother will be lucky if he gets into college.  My wife and I both feel that, in a perfect world, he would skip college and go to a tech school, or apprentice to a trade, but the reality of life right now is that he may NEED to have, at least, a BA to get hired, even at a job where he probably won't use anything he studied.   He plans on living in the area, which because of the cost of housing, you need to make a GOOD salary to afford to live, especially if you plan on having a family, and want your wife to look after the kids . . .That's another subject I could write a few pages about. . .  Like I said, it's a club they force you to join.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
I think a lot of it has to do with education inflation. A lot of jobs now require a BA or BS just to even be considered and these jobs really don't require a 4 year degree to work the position.

Jobs that used to require a HS diploma now require a AA degree, AA degree jobs now require a BA/BA

-Charby

Here's a question that I would like to know the answer to:
Do companies who list a degree in anything (unspecified and employer really doesn't care what the major was) as a requirement have that requirement because
A. A degree in, say, Early Childhood Mass Pottery Health Science Communications, provides invaluable skills for whatever job position they are trying to fill
OR
B. They are forbidden from giving an intelligence test and weeding out the dullards.  A 4 year degree being used as a proxy* for the intelligence test, giving the employer a way to weed out those who are functionally illiterate and lack the drive to accomplish long term goals.


* An expensive, inefficient, and blunt proxy, at that.



Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
The real problem is money.  Too much of it.

Everyone wants their kid to have the best education they can provide, that's fundamental to human nature.  Over the past few decades, the amount of money freely or cheaply available to spend on college has increased dramatically.  Thus the ability to send all our little chilluns off to school, which used to be limited by cost, is now limited only by the our ability to convince an admissions office to accept 'em. 

It used to be that people knew they had a limited amount to spend on educating their children, and therefore they'd evaluate which alternatives would provide the greatest value. But now that cost isn't a factor, everyone wants to go to the best cost-no-object school around.  The same thing is happening in health care.  Back when people had to pay for their own care directly, they wanted the best value they could get for their money.  Now that most people pay for health care with insurance (i.e. someone else's money, or so it appears to th shortsighted), everyone wants the best care that that other person's money can buy.

Demand for seats in the best schools rises in proportion to the amount of college money available to families.  Of course, with everyone bidding against each other for one of those seats, the schools know they can crank the tuition rates up sky high.  Which in turn necessitates more financing, which causes demand to grow, which causes prices to rise more, which necessitates more financing...

The real culprits in all this are the do-gooders (ahemCongrssionalDemocratsAhem) who say that everyone should be given the best education money can buy, even if (especially if)  they don't have the money to buy it.  When they make that money available, all they do is increase the cost of education, thus making people dependent upon the providers to continue providing.  It is very much like welfare.

The real winners in this game are the colleges.  They know they can build up their campuses to accept as many new students as possible, dumb down the education to the point of meaninglessness, and all the while increase their tuition exponentially.  As long as those do-gooders are out there, they know there will always be demand for seats in their schools.  They're laughing all the way to the bank.