Author Topic: Too many Americans are going to college: What's Wrong With Vocational School?  (Read 6748 times)

brimic

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I work with union teamsters and carpenters in NYC and the surrounding area.  Most of those guys are in their forties---I don't see many young people coming into the field.  But these guys make good money as they work alot of OT.  But no young person wants to go into a trade today as it is looked down upon.  All the soccer moms and dad want to brag about their children going to this or that Ivy league school.

The Milwaukee Journal sentinel was reporting a few months ago the same thing. There are a lot of employers looking for Skilled labor in Milwaukee who can't fill their positions- especially welders. They have turned to recruiting at high schools- a welder can start out at around 35-40K per year and make 60+ k with a few years experience. The contractors who come in to do welding in places that I've worked, mostly welding and fabricating stainless tubing and header systems get $50+/hr. I wish someone would have told me about these jobs when I was a kid.

FWIW, when I was in highschool, I wanted to be a deisel mechanic, the guidance counselor strongly discouraged me from that career prospect- I should have never listened to him, my neighbor is a deisel/heavy equipment mechanic who makes big $$bucks, has some really fun tools, and drives a really nice semi-work rig.

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One result of all this is that many middle and upper middle class people, especially younger people, never have much real interaction with working types.  This creates a chasm between classes that, IMO, is not healthy for a community or nation.  Also, I find many people, especially younger ones have no clue as to how the world works.   One on level, that means they don't realize what it takes to do hard physical labor.  This is no small thing.  I think if a person has worked on a job, for a good amount of time, that is really HARD WORK, they get a better appreciation of people, work, and the world in general.  Many young people today enjoy a cushy life while in school, go on to some white collar job . . . (don't get me wrong, they may work hard at their jobs, have pressure, etc., ) and never come to realize what it takes, say to install the carpeting in their offices, or install drywall, etc.  

I don't know -----I just feel many people, (again, especially younger middle class types, esp. in the 'burbs) are in some basic ways removed from realities that would help them better appreciate the world in general--and give them a REAL understanding of diversity.  "Diversity" doesn't mean people who look different from you but think the same.


Probably, though in my area its a little different. I live in a exurb of Milwaukee, most of the people who live in my neighborhhood are either from rural areas that want nothing to do with Milwaukee and all of its crime and other problems but like the money thats available in the area, or are retired people. There really isn't any social differentiation between carpenters, scientists, house painters, bankers, salesmen, mechanics, truck drivers, or accountants.
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El Tejon

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You didn't know any other physics majors?  We have an abundance of those critters here.  Maybe it's a function of where you went to school or live.  I'm up to my armpits in physics majors up here.  As well, the department head is a Techie Gun Nut 1st Class; good to have those sorts around. grin
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roo_ster

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My dad got a double-major back in the day (Bus Admin/Econ) and promptly took a pay cut when he quit his job as truck driver and laborer (union cards in both Teamsters & the other laborers' union) and took a job as a bottom rung office pogue.  It was the right move, in the long run, as laborers' & truck drivers' wages remained stagnant & his opportnities and salary continued to grow.

My dad tried to push me & my sister into degrees that had a body of knowledge useful to employers, rather than a degree useful only as proof I went to college.  He saw engineers and other hard-science/math types with management potential elevated further & faster than Business majors & the trend accelerated throughout his career, though he eventually found his niche from where he could amass some security and train employees that would be "his" people.  When my dad retired he recommended and the company installed as his replacement a guy my dad had trained...a guy who had never been to college.

Quote from: Fudgieghost
I don't know -----I just feel many people, (again, especially younger middle class types, esp. in the 'burbs) are in some basic ways removed from realities that would help them better appreciate the world in general
Amen, brother!  I sought out manual labor during breaks when I was in high school & college.  I had to let my noodle cool down and work my back, instead.  The Discovery Show "Dirty Jobs" has brings back memories of some jobs I did.
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roo_ster

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MillCreek

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At the end of your chemistry career at the University they throw a monster of a course at you called Physical Chemistry, some of of my colleagues still have nightmares about the class- I've turned to alcohol to drown those demons.

Mr. MillCreek is the proud possessor of a BS/MS in analytical chemistry from about 25 years ago.  I still remember P Chem.  Unfortunately, my chemistry knowledge is of very little use in my current profession of healthcare administration, but the MBA came in handy for that.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Matthew Carberry

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At the end of your chemistry career at the University they throw a monster of a course at you called Physical Chemistry, some of of my colleagues still have nightmares about the class- I've turned to alcohol to drown those demons.

Mr. MillCreek is the proud possessor of a BS/MS in analytical chemistry from about 25 years ago.  I still remember P Chem.  Unfortunately, my chemistry knowledge is of very little use in my current profession of healthcare administration, but the MBA came in handy for that.

You're aware we've discovered all sorts of new chemicals and such since then? Your primitive alchemy no longer applies.  grin
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zahc

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This problem is exacerbated when the parallel math courses are taught by mathmatics professors.

Ha. Story of my life.
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Firethorn

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I have to agree with this assesment.  Everwhere I turn I hear about shortages of skilled jobs that are normally taught by vocational schools.  Electricians, Plumbers, welders, sheet metal workers, etc.  Even auto mechanics.

MillCreek

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You're aware we've discovered all sorts of new chemicals and such since then? Your primitive alchemy no longer applies.  grin

Snort!  I would be completely useless in a contemporary lab.  I wrote my masters' thesis on the quantitative analysis of barbiturates in urine via GC/MS.  And the best part is that I wrote the programs and controlled the lab instruments on an Apple IIc, the absolute height of computer instrument control at the time.  And then there was the time that I spilled 250cc of urine right into the guts of the Apple.  I quickly unplugged everything, rinsed it off with distilled water and put it into the vacuum drying chamber.  It worked like a charm afterwards.
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

roo_ster

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And then there was the time that I spilled 250cc of urine right into the guts of the Apple.  I quickly unplugged everything, rinsed it off with distilled water and put it into the vacuum drying chamber.  It worked like a charm afterwards.
That is so stinkin' cool.  I have found that cheap Wal-mart food dehydrators can do a similar job for cell phones tossed in the drink.
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roo_ster

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Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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I have to agree with this assesment.  Everwhere I turn I hear about shortages of skilled jobs that are normally taught by vocational schools.  Electricians, Plumbers, welders, sheet metal workers, etc.  Even auto mechanics.


Here in Texas we have plenty of unlicensed, uncertified illegal immigrants who drive the wage level down in the electrical, plumbing, roofing, plumbing and sheetrock trades. Can't hardly sling a chalupa without hitting one.

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Matthew Carberry

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In one sense that's upsetting and unjust for the guys who are certified.

In another, if the unlicensed are making code and passing inspections and their employers are still getting work (satisfied customers), it kind of makes you wonder why we have to pay for everyone on the job to be certified by some agency or another.
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Firethorn

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In one sense that's upsetting and unjust for the guys who are certified.

In another, if the unlicensed are making code and passing inspections and their employers are still getting work (satisfied customers), it kind of makes you wonder why we have to pay for everyone on the job to be certified by some agency or another.

Because my brother, who's working as an electrician, has had to go into many homes that these unlicensed workers have installed stuff into and essentially rip everything out and start fresh.

Stuff like using too small wire, putting 1 circuit in when code/specifications/common sense call for two.  I mean, they found a 20 amp kitchen circuit wired with 14 gauge, and the dryer hooked up with 12...  The two circuit thing is for the kitchen, and it was a kitchen for a Latino family, which happen to love having family over and cooking using many crock pots, extra hot plates, etc...

They couldn't even reuse the wire because so much of it was scorched.


Matthew Carberry

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So the inspector missed it all?

bad on him.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

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Bogie

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Heh... I was a trouble-student - "Charles, you are _not_ living up to your potential" up through high school... Junior year, the guidance counselor was trying to talk me into vo-ed... Learn a trade, be a mechanic or a carpenter or a heavy equipment operator.
 
Then I took a few tests. ASVAB, college boards, etc...
 
Then when it became obvious that I hadn't cheated on 'em, and that the curve for the school just got horridly skewed, I was suddenly her star college prospect, so she couldn't get enough meeting time...
 
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Firethorn

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So the inspector missed it all?

bad on him.

Yep, there are suspicions that certain inspectors tend to have eye problems with the color green in his area.

Bogie

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City inspectors can be good or bad.
 
Never treated 'em as adversaries, and by the time we got through with one rehab, knew one guy pretty well. He shows up to sign off on some plumbing stuff, sees one problem. Rather than schedule another visit, basically just told us why it wouldn't work, etc., etc., and told us to fix it before we put up the rock... and he signed off on it.
 
Of course, we were already draining so we could cut it...
 
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Matthew Carberry

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We definitely shop for our inspectors.  There's a couple guys who you can't BS but if you are reasonable and show you fix your mistakes they'll do the same thing. 

"Get it fixed" but here's your signed off inspection.

There's a couple others who show up late without calling and will nickle and dime you on stuff that's easier to fix right there than take the time to write up.  They like those call-out fees I guess.
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"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

brimic

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Stuff like using too small wire, putting 1 circuit in when code/specifications/common sense call for two.  I mean, they found a 20 amp kitchen circuit wired with 14 gauge, and the dryer hooked up with 12... 

I had a good one....
Washing machine died about 6 months back. I took the timer out and determined that it was the problem and installed a new one. Plugged washing machine back in, it ran for about 2 minutes, then stopped. I unplugged it, opened the panel to make sure the timer wasn't cooked, everything looked fine, plugged it back in and it ran again for about a minute then stopped again. Iwas also smelling burning plastic at this time. I shut the breaker off, took the receptacle plate off and found that a wire was off its terminal and barely touching it, and it had burned the body of the outlet. I removed the receptacle and instantly recognized it as a 15 amp receptacle, I double checked the circuit- yep a 20 AMP circuit.  angry

I spent the rest of the afternoon inspecting each circuit in the house. I would have maybe let this one slide as an oversight by the inspector, but there have been a few other very serious and obvious issues that the inspector had missed before he signed off on the occupation permit. I had even called him on one issue a year after we moved in- we had an infestation of insects one fal, so I checked the foundation and found that there was no sill plate, but there was a rim joist that sat unevenly on the foundation that I could see 1/4" gaps of sunlight shining through. He told me that was acceptable when the house was built a year before but they had just changed the standards (what good are standards when you can ramrod through inspections of a 250 house subdivision at a few thou a piece?) and there is nothing I could do about it.
I should mention that I'm finishing my basement right now and had calculated how much it would have cost me to pull permits for everything- it would have been in excess of $600. They charge something like $0.50/receptacle as well- for that amount of money I would expect the inspector to have looked over the wiring very carefully before signing off on it. They even require a $30 permit to install a water softener! Of course I'm not going to invite this money grubbing government retard into my house to inspect anything.  angry
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DrAmazon

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Time for the Professor to chime in a bit.

1.  I agree that not every student who is accepted at college belongs there.  I worry about the lack of options for students who at one time would have gone into the skilled trades and the lack of qualified workforce for many of the skilled trades.

2.  There are things that college courses can teach (and that college students can learn) that are somewhat intangible and will not necessarially be used on a daily basis on a job.  While I have a BS in biochemistry, I find myself using things I learned in linguistics, comparative arts, english and history as I go through my life.  Many of these are the skills that I work to reinforce in my classes.  Learning to read critically, apply problem solving strategies, write and speak clearly and correctly, work independently, work in groups, meet deadlines, use internet resources efficiently and critically, interpret directions and prepare work according to directions are all skills that are gained by SUCCESSFUL students as they make their way through college.  My former students may never again be able to tell me the electron configuration of gold, but when they read the latest junk science article on Yahoo and think to take notice of who funded the study, I've done my job.

3.  Many of the skills that we take for granted because we either learned them during the high school years (or we think we learned them then) are not getting in during high school.  Many of our middle and upper-middle class teens lead highly programmed lives.  Their parents have managed their time and schedules since birth.  When they arrive on campus, they have truly no idea how to prioritize tasks or manage time.  Many of these kids would be an absolute disaster in the workforce.  College serves as a time to live life on their own-but with a net.  There's also other adult skills that some of them learn, including managing their finances, dealing with people of very different backgrounds and opinions (roommate wars anyone?) and for many, taking responsibility for their actions for the first time.

Just a few thoughts...
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doczinn

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http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2006/11/30/unlearning_literature/

Unlearning literature

By Elizabeth Kantor  |  November 30, 2006

IT'S OFFICIAL: You spend tens of thousands of dollars to send your children to college. In return, the colleges turn out graduates who are more ignorant than when they enrolled.

According to a recent survey by the University of Connecticut and the Intercollegiate Studies Institute of more than 14,000 randomly selected college freshman and seniors at 50 colleges across the country, seniors actually know less about American history and government than entering freshmen.

But students don't just learn (or unlearn, as the case may be) facts in college. They also learn attitudes and principles. In other words, they form their characters, which, Aristotle pointed out more than 2,000 years ago, means learning to love and delight in certain things and spurn others. For example, American students used to learn more from the Gettysburg Address than just the facts of Civil War military history. They also learned to love self-government -- and its necessary condition, the courage and sacrifice of the patriotic soldier.

But too many of today's politically correct college professors aren't interested in persuading young Americans to adopt any such traditional attitudes as patriotism, civic responsibility, or traditional morality. In fact, many American colleges seem to be teaching students to spurn the very things that students used to learn to love and delight in.

Universities are full of trendy English professors who don't read Shakespeare for the beauty of the poetry or its peerless insights into human nature. The point is to uncover the oppression that's supposed to define Western culture: the racism, "patriarchy," and imperialism that must lurk beneath the surface of everything written by those "dead white males." (The latest book from University of Pennsylvania professor emerita Phyllis Rackin, for example, investigates how "Macbeth" contributed to the "domestication of women.") With their low opinion of Western civilization, it's no wonder that so many English professors teach material that isn't English literature at all: Marx and Derrida -- and even comic books, politically correct bestsellers from the '80s, foreign films, and pornography -- rather than Shakespeare and Jane Austen.

To a lot of professors, Western culture is something students need to be liberated from. It is not something to pass on and preserve.

What a pity. Especially now, when we're under attack from enemies who want to replace our civilization with a very different kind of culture.

Western culture isn't in our genes. It's learned. And despite what the typical 21st-century college professor may believe, Western civilization has conferred enormous benefits on the human race: extraordinary freedom and respect for women, workable self-government, freedom of speech and the press.

If students actually studied the classics of English and American literature under the guidance of sympathetic teachers, they'd learn many other politically incorrect truths as well. From "Beowulf," students could learn that military virtue is both necessary and noble. In Chaucer, they might come to understand chivalry, and see how it changed the position of women. In Shakespeare, students could glimpse the existence of universal underlying patterns that shape and define human character (as well as all our institutions, from marriage to government). From Milton, they could learn about the origins -- in Christian theology, not in anti religious Enlightenment thought -- of our intellectual freedoms. From Jane Austen, they might pick up insights into the real perennial problems between men and women, which have very little to do with an excess of "patriarchy." From Dickens, they could learn about the risks of unintended consequences and the costs of revolutionary expedience.

Some of these lessons are characteristically Western. Others -- respect for military virtue, for example -- are typical of almost any healthy culture. But English professors are detached not just from the heritage of the West but in a sense from culture at all, or even from objective reality. "Essentialist" is the term of abuse that feminists and "queer theorists" apply to anyone who suggests that the stubborn facts of nature -- the differences between men and women, for example -- limit or define human beings in any way.

These are the folks we've entrusted with the formation of young people's minds and the preservation of our culture. Isn't it time we reconsidered whether we can trust them with the job?

Elizabeth Kantor is the author of "The Politically Incorrect Guide to English and American Literature."
D. R. ZINN

Stand_watie

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Regarding College vs. Vocational school. I've two degrees, which are neither worth very much in terms of getting a good job, or my overall career type knowledge. My current (and I hope for the rest of my working life) job, only requires a high school diploma, but a two year study of basic chemistry, plumbing, electrical or mechanical repair, welding, carpentry, fabrication construction, or process engineering would have been FAR more useful to me than the five(ish) years of college. 


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In one sense that's upsetting and unjust for the guys who are certified...In another, if the unlicensed are making code and passing inspections and their employers are still getting work (satisfied customers), it kind of makes you wonder why we have to pay for everyone on the job to be certified by some agency or another.

Quote
...Stuff like using too small wire, putting 1 circuit in when code/specifications/common sense call for two.  I mean, they found a 20 amp kitchen circuit wired with 14 gauge, and the dryer hooked up with 12...  The two circuit thing is for the kitchen, and it was a kitchen for a Latino family, which happen to love having family over and cooking using many crock pots, extra hot plates, etc...

In my opinion an awful lot of the problem with illegal immigrants is in their illegality itself. In the examples above, without a black market illegal immigrant economy, that would be a lot less prevalant, and legal mexican immigrants would be making better wages working as apprentice electricians being supervised by a (hypothetically) qualified electrician. 


This came up in a work conversation today.

We had a contractor die of a heart attack at our plant some years ago.

In the case of this guy, he probably died because his crew was too frightened to call 911. It was some time after he keeled over and stopped breathing before the people from the conctract work crew's home office called us, and asked for help, to send someone out to do CPR until the medical rescue unit got there, probably 10 or so minutes at least. I'm not an MD, but I suspect an immediate 911 call would have vastly improved his odds. We have a fire station with paramedics within 2 minutes drive of the plant.
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Perd Hapley

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They tell him he can make a hunnert grand a year fixin' Toyoters an' Chevys. 
Holy cow!  Where?  My Daddy's been fixin' GM's his whole borned life, and never made that kind of cash.  He's already certified and experienced.  Where should I send him for such lucrative employment?
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Stand_watie

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Two questions (and a comment) for two different posters - all in one post

Quote from: MechAg94
...I am plant engineer and can at least look around and see project that I did or was a part of.  Sometimes you hear an operator or maintenance guy say something positive about something you helped install or improve.  It makes your whole day.

The comment is that it seems to me that the engineering professional school is the nexus of vocational and professional education. We have, if I recall correctly, three engineers for our plant, which only has about 35 full time/benefits employees. They all seem to have plenty of work to keep on top of. I for one, would gladly give up a dollar an hour of my pay, to have a "dial an engineer" service (not just any engineer, it would have to be a service that had engineers of every different stripe available, sorted by technical specialty, at least a dozen or twenty different specialties for my job in particular) that I could call at any time and ask a question like "if I increase the gravity of my liquor, with the temp at xyz and the humidity at abc, will it increase or decrease my fines production and what will that do to my bulk density?" or "is circuit abc hot when switch xyz is open?", or "will opening steam valve xyz affect steam valve abc's pressure?"

My question for you is, in your plant, what is your ratio of engineers to "maintenance" (an unfair term in today's manufacturing world as the term "maintenance" has been watered down to describe "cleaning" or "housekeeping" personell as "maintenence" and to "operators" (the guys that are actually producing the product)?

At my plant it is 3 engineers to 7 maintenence (understaffed by about 3 in my opinion) to 22 operators.  Just curious.


Quote from: zahc
link=topic=5673.msg86238#msg86238 date=1169068931]
*as someone currently taking quantum mechanics, I encounter this truth every day.

I've heard lots of times of quantum physics. I even know what it is. It is that math thing, that is 3 steps beyond what my mind is capable of grasping. I know that basic algebra is very hard. I know that advanced algebra is (what was I saying now?...lost it in the fog...) too hard for me. Geometry isn't too bad, because it puts figures into words which are much easier to understand.  Trig and calculus are harder, physics is harder than that, and quantum physics is up there in the Einstein levels of hardness (all but basic algebra and geometry are beyond my ability).

Mechanics now, I have a basic understanding of (IE, I can pull and re-install a pre-1978 engine/transmission). Quantum mechanics I don't know, but it sounds interesting. If it's possible to give a two or three paragraph overview of what quantum mechanics is, that I can understand, I'd love to hear it. Based upon my description of my math ability (above) if quantum mechanics is beyond my comprehension (in your opinion) say so, and I'll save my brain cells for that which I'm likelier to understand.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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"Never again"

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