Author Topic: It's legally a good shoot, but  (Read 31905 times)

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,409
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2018, 02:40:18 PM »
Witnesses say when he shoved Drejka, McGlockton had his hands in the air, attempting to surrender, while loudly shouting, "I can't breathe!" He had just been in the story buying Skittles, you see.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Devonai

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,644
  • Panic Mode Activated
    • Kyrie Devonai Publishing
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2018, 04:26:58 PM »
Witnesses say when he shoved Drejka, McGlockton had his hands in the air, attempting to surrender, while loudly shouting, "I can't breathe!" He had just been in the story buying Skittles, you see.

Snark levels are exceeding limits!  I canna hold her for much longer like this!
My writing blog: Kyrie Devonai Publishing

When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #102 on: July 27, 2018, 07:14:30 PM »
Those words certainly could be relevant. For example, if the shooter said something like “lady I will shoot you if you don’t move this car” before being shoved, thats the sort of fact that would land him in seriously hot water

Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Angel Eyes

  • Lying dog-faced pony soldier
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,310
  • You're not diggin'
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #103 on: July 27, 2018, 08:19:08 PM »
The real question is: did Drejka use a large-caliber firearm?

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=57914.0
"End of quote.  Repeat the line."
  - Joe 'Ron Burgundy' Biden

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,881
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #104 on: July 29, 2018, 12:47:37 PM »
Witnesses say when he shoved Drejka, McGlockton had his hands in the air, attempting to surrender, while loudly shouting, "I can't breathe!" He had just been in the story buying Skittles, you see.

Snicker, Snicker.

Obviously, Drejka found it necessary to shoot before McGlockton had time to obtain and put on his bulletproof vest, thereby proving premeditation.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Devonai

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,644
  • Panic Mode Activated
    • Kyrie Devonai Publishing
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #105 on: July 29, 2018, 01:33:23 PM »
If only he had been named McTaserton, he might still be here today.
My writing blog: Kyrie Devonai Publishing

When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

just Warren

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,234
  • My DJ name is Heavy Cream.
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #106 on: July 29, 2018, 01:39:49 PM »
Noice!
Member in Good Standing of the Spontaneous Order of the Invisible Hand.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,742
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #107 on: July 29, 2018, 03:10:59 PM »
I have heard some criticism of the guy in the last few days and see people saying he should be charged with murder and given no slack.  I don't think this guy did everything right and I think this video would be a good training tool in what to do and NOT do for concealed carry.  I just have a hard time saying this guy committed murder based on being a second or two late in firing or failing to recognize that an attacker may not be following up on their initially attack.  For everyone who says we throw too many people in prison, they often want to see people like this locked up immediately.  I think some of the people criticizing him must have experience being confronted by people like him.  

For me, the main issue is a much younger, bigger guy walked up and shoved him hard to the ground.  He didn't just bump him back or get in his face, he knocked him to the ground hard.  Unless there was some prior threat that justified that action (I didn't see that mentioned in the article), it doesn't matter if he was arguing with the guy's girlfriend.  The guy attacked him and got shot.  With what we know, that is the summary of events.  Unless something new comes out, I can't see how I would consider it differently.  
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,742
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #108 on: July 29, 2018, 03:22:46 PM »
Those words certainly could be relevant. For example, if the shooter said something like “lady I will shoot you if you don’t move this car” before being shoved, thats the sort of fact that would land him in seriously hot water
What was said prior to the physical assault could be relevant if we knew what it was.  For now, all we know if what the woman claimed.  And I think some are assuming things based on watching the man confront the woman.  He could also have been telling her that sugary drinks are bad for her health and she should stick with water.  With any case, more evidence would affect our view of the actions, but I doubt we will get that.  If the police had more to go on, I think he would be arrested by now.  


One final thought:  sometimes self defense is ugly.  We should be careful to judge actions correctly lest we erode our own rights.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

markdido

  • New Member
  • Posts: 52
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #109 on: July 29, 2018, 03:29:41 PM »
Perhaps it's just like the Zimmerman/Martin incident: "When aholes Collide"  (would make a great TV movie)

Somebody beat you to it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6719962/?ref_=nv_sr_1

From the looks of the trailer, it's looking to beatify Martin
Liberals believe that a woman, found raped and strangled with her own pantyhose is morally superior to a women with a dead rapist at her feet and a gun in her hands.

zxcvbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,232
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #110 on: July 29, 2018, 03:47:02 PM »
Somebody beat you to it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6719962/?ref_=nv_sr_1

From the looks of the trailer, it's looking to beatify Martin

I meant the title would be good for a TV movie, not necessarily St Trayvon.
"It's good, though..."

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,409
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #111 on: July 29, 2018, 04:39:13 PM »
I'm glad the shooter's fate depends on a small group of people who carefully examine the facts, and the law; and not on internet blowhards.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Pb

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,900
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #112 on: July 30, 2018, 10:02:25 AM »
I'm glad the shooter's fate depends on a small group of people who carefully examine the facts, and the law; and not on internet blowhards.

Well, we can hope so....

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,010
  • I'm an Extremist!
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,262
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #114 on: July 30, 2018, 12:58:01 PM »
Interesting take from both pro-gun politicians and the NRA:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/30/republican-lawmaker-nra-lobbyist-challenge-florida-sheriff-on-stand-your-ground-stance-in-shooting.html

Hoo, boy.

Quote
But not so, say experts -- including lawmakers who wrote "Stand Your Ground," criminal lawyers and a National Rifle Association lobbyist -- who were interviewed by POLITICO about Gualtieri's controversial remarks.

“Nothing in either the 2005 ["Stand Your Ground"] law or the 2017 law [about immunity from prosecution] prohibits a Sheriff from making an arrest in a case where a person claims self-defense if there is probable cause that the use of force was unlawful,” Tallahassee NRA lobbyist Marion Hammer told Politico. Hammer helped pass "Stand Your Ground" through the GOP-led Florida Legislature.

“Nothing in the law says a person can sue the Sheriff for making an arrest when there is probable cause,” she said in an email, according to POLITICO.

And what constitutes "probable cause"? Drejka had just been physically assaulted by a younger, larger individual, who after the initial assault advanced toward Drejka until he saw the gun. He had stopped his advance, but we don't know if he had stopped his mouth. He was certainly still a threat -- he had NOT turned his back and given clear indications that he was departing the scene (unlike the assialant in the other sample case in a parallel thread). I don't see any probable cause here, and apparently the sheriff and his staff don't, either.

Quote
State Sen. Dennis Baxley, a Republican who sponsored "Stand Your Ground" in 2005 told Politico he also disputed Gualtieri’s assertion that, in passing the law, lawmakers created a standard that was largely subjective.

“'Stand your ground' uses a reasonable-person standard. It’s not that you were just afraid,” Baxley said. “It’s an objective standard.”[/quote]

The reasonable man test is absolutely NOT an objective standard. It asks each juror to put him or herself in the position of the shooter and to make a decision as to whether or not they would have acted the same way under the same circumstances. It is precisely "that you were just afraid." The reasonable man standard asks each juror to decide if he or she would have been afraid in the same situation. Only a total moron would call that an objective standard. But, he is a legislator, so excuse me for having made a redundant statement.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #115 on: July 30, 2018, 01:13:06 PM »
Well duh,
Obviously "Stand your ground" shouldn't be in play.
The guy was not standing having been roughly shoved to the pavement by the victim.
There is no "lay on the pavement" statute.
Shooter is guilty.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,010
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #116 on: July 30, 2018, 01:34:15 PM »
Hoo, boy.


It's just the one article so there might be missing context. My guess from just that article would be that 1) As alluded to in the article, the politicians may be doing an election year dance. 2) I'm wondering if the NRA stance is being taken out of context. I can totally see the NRA (rightly) wanting to make it clear that "stand your ground" doesn't mean "shoot because someone looked at you the wrong way". They may actually see this as a (to me, barely) justified shoot, but are just clarifying that in general, "stand your ground" is not a carte blanche thing.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,262
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #117 on: July 30, 2018, 01:43:50 PM »
2) I'm wondering if the NRA stance is being taken out of context. I can totally see the NRA (rightly) wanting to make it clear that "stand your ground" doesn't mean "shoot because someone looked at you the wrong way". They may actually see this as a (to me, barely) justified shoot, but are just clarifying that in general, "stand your ground" is not a carte blanche thing.

It looks to me like the NRA is afraid to actually support the law they wanted so badly to see enacted, because every time a stand-your-ground case comes up, the NRA tries to back away from it. I think they're afraid any publicity will result in repeal of the law. IMHO the NRA should not have made any statement at all. If Ms. Hammer wanted to make a statement, she should have done so as a private citizen and left the NRA out of it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,881
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #118 on: July 30, 2018, 02:07:18 PM »
It's hard [for a reporter or news outlet] to leave the NRA out of it since Marion Hammer is a Past President and has long been active in firearms legislation in Florida.

My quick scan of it indicates they were challenging the basis of the Sheriff's statement as a legal point that he could not arrest the shooter.  Maybe so, maybe not. Except for completely biased individuals (black versus white, gun advocate versus anti-gunner) the evidemce presently at hand indicates a good shoot, at least to me.  Stupid, also because of the evidence presently at hand, but legal.


230RN

Edited to add "[for a reporter or news outlet]"
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 02:07:38 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,262
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #119 on: July 30, 2018, 07:10:48 PM »
Yes, I know who Marion Hammer is.

I've never achieved her status or name recognition on a national level, but for a number of years I (or at least my name) was fairly well-known within my profession in my home state. As a result, whenever I felt compelled to write letters to editors (which was somewhat frequently), I was always careful to state up front that I was writing as an individual, and not on behalf of any of the professional organizations to which I belonged or in which I held office.

In this instance, was Ms. Hammer speaking as Marion Hammer, individual, or was she speaking for the NRA? If she was speaking for the NRA, I sincerely wish she hadn't done so. There are times when the best comment is no comment.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,409
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #120 on: July 30, 2018, 07:40:55 PM »
Contrast this with the NRA's tepid support for Philando Castile.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #121 on: July 31, 2018, 12:01:55 AM »
The law is poorly drafted and has clearly given rise to the suggestion that it shifted the standard from objective (ie, was the shooters fear for his life reasonable, whether it was genuine or not?) to subjective (the question being - did the shooter actually fear for his life, whether or not it made sense to be in fear?).

There are gun owners here on this board who aren’t okay with this shooting. Ordinarily and in most jurisdicistions there would be an investigation and a process for sorting out the facts to decide on a charge (Texas is a good example - a grand jury decides.)

SYG fixed what wasn’t broken. It did so with unpredictable results. It purports not to change the substantive law of self defence but through additional procedures and red tape has made investigating claims of self defence so different as to result in a de facto change to the standards for when it can be evoked.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,409
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #122 on: July 31, 2018, 12:05:25 AM »
There are gun owners here on this board who aren’t okay with this shooting. Ordinarily and in most jurisdicistions there would be an investigation and a process for sorting out the facts to decide on a charge (Texas is a good example - a grand jury decides.)

The sheriff said he would refer the case to the state's attorney. Doesn't that mean the SA will investigate?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Regolith

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,171
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #123 on: July 31, 2018, 12:11:31 AM »
It's just the one article so there might be missing context. My guess from just that article would be that 1) As alluded to in the article, the politicians may be doing an election year dance. 2) I'm wondering if the NRA stance is being taken out of context. I can totally see the NRA (rightly) wanting to make it clear that "stand your ground" doesn't mean "shoot because someone looked at you the wrong way". They may actually see this as a (to me, barely) justified shoot, but are just clarifying that in general, "stand your ground" is not a carte blanche thing.

The context was that the sheriff was misstating the legal standards behind "stand your ground", saying that the standard for self defense was "subjective", rather than the "reasonable man" standard that is actually written into the law. Basically, he was misrepresenting it in the same way that gun grabbers and people like De Selby have been. The NRA and the legislators that actually drafted it are pushing back against that misrepresentation, and AFAICT aren't actually taking a stance on this specific case.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,262
Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #124 on: July 31, 2018, 12:30:19 AM »
The law is poorly drafted and has clearly given rise to the suggestion that it shifted the standard from objective (ie, was the shooters fear for his life reasonable, whether it was genuine or not?) to subjective (the question being - did the shooter actually fear for his life, whether or not it made sense to be in fear?).

Whether or not a "reasonable man" standard is objective is, itself, a subjective question. I submit that it is not an objective standard. An objective standard essentially is a standard that must be decided the same way for any case, regardless of who is reviewing the evidence and rendering the decision. With a "reasonable man" standard, one jury might view the evidence and deadlock 11:1 in favor of acquittal, a second jury might view the same evidence and deadlock 10:2 in favor of conviction, and a third jury might view the same evidence and hand down a unanimous verdict -- for acquittal or for conviction.

I respectfully submit that this is a subjective standard, not an objective standard.

A speed limit is an objective standard. Speed limit is 65 MPH. Was he going faster than 65? Convict. Was he going 65 or slower? Acquit.

Bank robbery is illegal. Did he point a gun at the teller, ask for money, and walk out with a bag full of greenbacks? If yes, guilty. If no, not guilty.

Those are objective standards.

"What would a hypothetical reasonable man have done if he had been in my client's shoes when the incident took place?" How can that be objective? Each juror has to make his or her own [subjective] decision as to what a hypothetical reasonable man would have felt or done in the circumstances as described -- and which almost certainly conjures up a different picture in the mind of each person hearing the sordid tale recounted.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design