Author Topic: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"  (Read 9815 times)

MillCreek

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2018, 02:45:31 PM »
Err... larger?

Of the top 15, it looks like 4 are that way.



I was referring to individual churches in this area, some of whom go their own way on various issues, regardless of what their denomination may hold on that issue.  In my experience, the larger (number of members at that church) churches seem to have more latitude in this regard.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2018, 03:12:00 PM »

The gay marriage issue is one that is a pretty clear signal of the ones opinion of scripture, though. One has to ignore a lot of scripture to support it.
 

The Episcopalians don't ignore Scripture on this issue -- they bend, fold, spindle and mutilate it beyond recognition. They have lengthy treatises examining in exquisite detail why [they say] the Bible says exactly the opposite of what [I believe] the Bible actually says. This is one issue where it appears that it doesn't even matter which translation you read; they are all pretty much in agreement.
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brimic

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2018, 04:39:15 PM »
The Episcopalians don't ignore Scripture on this issue -- they bend, fold, spindle and mutilate it beyond recognition. They have lengthy treatises examining in exquisite detail why [they say] the Bible says exactly the opposite of what [I believe] the Bible actually says. This is one issue where it appears that it doesn't even matter which translation you read; they are all pretty much in agreement.

There seem to be a few mainstream churches that exist only to give the left a voice in concern trolling churches that have a principled approach to following the Bible.
A similar analogy is where 'legal scholars' interpret the 2nd amendment to mean only professional standing or state run volunteer armies have the 'right' to access a carefully controlled assortment of weapons.
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mellestad

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2018, 05:15:41 PM »
From reading the article though, it looks like they're suing to stop Michigan from contracting with any adoption agencies that hold a faith-based test.

Isn't that reasonable? I'd be pretty pissed if Texas had a state contract with an adoption agency that only placed kids into families that passed a good behavior audit done by...I dunno, Scientologists or something.

The line seems pretty clear to me. If the state is doing it (or contracting for it) then it has to be agnostic in so far as requirements for services.

This was inevitable as soon as gay marriage was legalized.

KD5NRH

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2018, 05:24:44 PM »
Note: being homosexual is a sin.

I'd tend to follow the approach that being homosexual isn't a sin, but homosexual acts are.  AFAIK, all but the most hellfire-and-brimstone of the churches that still have the guts to denounce homosexuality are of a similar opinion.  After all, the Scriptural references to sexual behavior all prohibit acts, rather than thoughts; only adultery was called out as happening when one lusts with or without acting.

lee n. field

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2018, 06:12:02 PM »
Around these h'yar parts, it seems that Unitarian-Universalists, United Church of Christ, and the Episcopal Church USA are on board with same sex marriage

None of these surprise me.  I don't even think the UUs regard themselves as Christian any more.

Quote
Roman Catholic; Greek, Russian, and other Orthodox; Anglican; Baptist; Morman; and Evangelical churches are against it.

None of these is monolithic.

Quote
I'm not sure where the Methodists, Presbyterians, and Lutherans fall.

"Depends".    Each of these has an old branch, long gone liberal, and independent denominations that are much more conservative.

The presbyterians I am most familiar with.  The old mainline PCUSA has long been liberal.  And, every few years a group splits off that can't abide the latest outrage.  Pretty soon, I figure, they'll be down to the lefty pagan core.
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dogmush

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2018, 06:20:53 PM »
That is a ......dizzying array of denominations.


From the outside, it seems like the mentioned "War on Christianity" is mostly waged by Christians.

My Father-in-Law is a Presbyterian Minister, from what I believe lee n. field described as the "old, mainline PCUSA" ( I could be wrong on that) and he would say many of the same comments in this thread, pointed the other way and run through a "Midwest Nice" filter.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2018, 10:00:42 PM »

The presbyterians I am most familiar with.  The old mainline PCUSA has long been liberal.  And, every few years a group splits off that can't abide the latest outrage.  Pretty soon, I figure, they'll be down to the lefty pagan core.

What about the Orthodox Presbyterians? Are they still around?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2018, 10:03:38 PM »
None of these surprise me.  I don't even think the UUs regard themselves as Christian any more.


You're right, they don't. My bad.

When I was a "yout," there was an actual Unitarian (not UU) church in the town where my grandparents lived in the summer. I tent to forget that they may not exist any more.
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lee n. field

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2018, 10:46:31 PM »
What about the Orthodox Presbyterians? Are they still around?

OPC?  small as ever, but still around.
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sumpnz

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2018, 02:20:26 AM »
The PCA still exists, and I think is growing overall.  I won't darken the door of a PCUSA church again (grew up in that denomination).

makattak

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2018, 08:12:47 AM »
From reading the article though, it looks like they're suing to stop Michigan from contracting with any adoption agencies that hold a faith-based test.

Isn't that reasonable? I'd be pretty pissed if Texas had a state contract with an adoption agency that only placed kids into families that passed a good behavior audit done by...I dunno, Scientologists or something.

The line seems pretty clear to me. If the state is doing it (or contracting for it) then it has to be agnostic in so far as requirements for services.

This was inevitable as soon as gay marriage was legalized.

I don't know Michigan law, but in Massachusetts and Illinois, the agencies are required to contract with the state in order to carry out their mission of "caring for widows and orphans". It's not a "oh, you just don't get the government's approval, but you can do what you'd like" (as gay "marriage" was before the Supreme Court decided to ignore the constitution) but a "you can't do it without the government's approval." (as the supporters of gay "marriage" liked to pretend it was.)
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dogmush

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2018, 09:23:03 AM »
I don't know Michigan law, but in Massachusetts and Illinois, the agencies are required to contract with the state in order to carry out their mission of "caring for widows and orphans". It's not a "oh, you just don't get the government's approval, but you can do what you'd like" (as gay "marriage" was before the Supreme Court decided to ignore the constitution) but a "you can't do it without the government's approval." (as the supporters of gay "marriage" liked to pretend it was.)

I guess I'd need to know more about how exactly the adoption process works.

My understanding is that the children are in the legal custody of the State, (and State managed Foster Care), and a couple going to an adoption agency is essentially hiring a lobbyist to help them navigate the State's adoption procedures.  Perhaps the agencies also promise to the State that the couples meet certain minimum standards, relieving the State from having to do independent research on each person seeking adoption.  If that's the case, I don't have a problem with some agencies choosing to add extra requirements to the folks they choose to work with, as the agencies morals dictate.  Potential parents are free to seek help from an agency that's goals more closely align with their own in that case.

If, however, the process is different, for example the state tells potential parents to go to specific agencies to get it done, I would have more of a problem with religious tests at those agencies.


Does anyone know if you HAVE to go through an agency?  Or is it just a lot easier so most people do?  Can a potential parent just go to the State, and wade through the paperwork and requirements themselves?

Also, Private (or church) run orphanages would be a separate issue, but I'm not sure how many of them exist anymore.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2018, 12:32:13 PM »
I guess I'd need to know more about how exactly the adoption process works.

My understanding is that the children are in the legal custody of the State, (and State managed Foster Care), and a couple going to an adoption agency is essentially hiring a lobbyist to help them navigate the State's adoption procedures. 

Not at all. I have no idea what percentage of children up for adoption are actually wards of the state, but I know it's not all. And many children who are up for adoption are not in foster care.

When my late wife and I adopted, it was international. The adoption agency (Catholic Charities, a.k.a. Catholic Family Services) didn't do any lobbying or negotiating of red tape whatsoever. We had to do all that on our own. All Catholic Charities did was to provide a licensed adoption social worker to perform the legally-mandated home study that certified that we were suitable people to be candidates to adopt a child. It's probably different if adopting a child within the U.S., but an awful lot of adoptions are from other countries for the reason that the rules for U.S. adoptions are so strict and onerous that many families who want to adopt are turned down.
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lupinus

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2018, 04:39:15 PM »
I guess I'd need to know more about how exactly the adoption process works.

My understanding is that the children are in the legal custody of the State, (and State managed Foster Care), and a couple going to an adoption agency is essentially hiring a lobbyist to help them navigate the State's adoption procedures.  Perhaps the agencies also promise to the State that the couples meet certain minimum standards, relieving the State from having to do independent research on each person seeking adoption.  If that's the case, I don't have a problem with some agencies choosing to add extra requirements to the folks they choose to work with, as the agencies morals dictate.  Potential parents are free to seek help from an agency that's goals more closely align with their own in that case.

If, however, the process is different, for example the state tells potential parents to go to specific agencies to get it done, I would have more of a problem with religious tests at those agencies.


Does anyone know if you HAVE to go through an agency?  Or is it just a lot easier so most people do?  Can a potential parent just go to the State, and wade through the paperwork and requirements themselves?

Also, Private (or church) run orphanages would be a separate issue, but I'm not sure how many of them exist anymore.
I would also add that if the agency is receiving public funds, I can much more easily see this being an issue.
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Scout26

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2018, 02:33:56 AM »
Former Foster Parent here.

When I went through the process I was looking to adopt.  The Agency is contracted by the state.  They have to follow the state's rules, regs, and procedures.  I dealt with two different agencies, one Lutheran and one non-religious.  The only thing that let me know they were religious was their name "Lutherbrook".  That and the Lutheran Church next door to "training" building and "residence" building.  (Training was for Foster and Adoptive parent to take a variety of classes, and the residence was what I would guess was a battered women's shelter, as I never saw any men there, just women as some children.)

The only discussion we ever had in our training was about respecting the religious rights of the child and the parents, if their parental rights had not been terminated.  So for example, Little Timmy's parents are Baptist and you are Catholic.  You should make every effort to see that Little Timmy gets to Baptist services.  It doesn't mean you can't take him to Catholic services, but he should be going to just as many Baptist services as Catholic, so that generally means you do one one Sunday and the other the next.   However, if they are say Muslim and you as a infidel are not allowed in the Mosque, then you are not required to leave Little Timmy alone with strangers, in fact you are prohibited from doing that. 

And of course, parents come up with goofy religions and "requirements" that you don't have abide by.  There was nothing about "Only Jewish kids can be placed with Jewish Families", however they often did try to "match up" as best they could.  The only group with an actual legal requirement was Hispanic kids, I can't remember if they had to placed with Hispanic parents, or just "should" be if ones are available.

I got out of because:

1.  They would call you and say they have a placement.  Which means they either got a new case and needed a home for this/these kids, or their previous placement had gone pear shaped and they were sent to a mental hospital, and were now "better" (Narrator: They weren't "better") and ready to go into a new home.  The two I had came from the later and in both cases things went pear shaped, police were called and kids taken out of my home at my request.   And they give you no information about the kid other then name and age.  They usually are sitting there by the desk of the case/social worker, so they just want to get this kid into a foster home, so they can go home.  So unless you know to ask lots and lots of question, all you get is happy talk about what a great kid they and they like sports and school and will be a really good fit in your home.  Bull.

2.  Unlike other states, Illinois doesn't terminate parental rights (For 230RN;  aka TPR. ) unless and until a "Stable" placement is made.  That is generally a couple years of no incidents, like mentioned above.  Then they begin the legal process to TPR, once that's done, then you can begin adoption proceedings.  The average from Placement to Adoption is about 5-7 years.   One family managed to do it two years, because the newborn they initially fostered had been dropped off at a fire station.   So, no parents to TPR. 

3.  Since Mom and/or Dad are still in the picture you have to do supervised visits, and in the day and age of electronic and social media are in fairly constant contact with their kids.  And Mom and/or Dad generally enjoy nothing more then undercutting the Foster parents.  Ask me how I know.

4.  Yes, you can do private adoptions, but that is generally for newborns, where the parents contracts with the birth mother.  All other kids are by law "Children in Care" (They changed the law, so they are no longer "Wards of the State".)  And yes, there are "Orphanages", but they are not called that.  They are called "Residential Care Centers".   


Now, the reason I heard that Lutherbrook was getting out of the Foster care business was that the State of Illinois was more than 2 years behind on their bills.  That's a lot of salaries and electricity to front the state, so they called it quits.   I had not heard that the state fired all of them.  The reason they had non-DCFS (230RN;  Dept. of Children and Family Services) agencies was there simply wasn't enough state employees/social and case workers to managed the number of kids in care.   I know Children's Home and Aid (a secular agency) had over 300 kids in just one of their residence facilities on the north side of Chicago.   But I gave up my license about a year ago, so I'm not in that loop any more. 
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Ron

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2018, 09:31:32 AM »
All children in the USA are or soon will be required to be instructed on the moral superiority of homosexuality.

All stops must be pulled out to counteract the natural revulsion and disgust most humans feel towards homosexual behavior.

The conditioning (grooming) has to start at a young age so as to confuse the natural process of sexual maturation.

In less than one generation the news/media/education establishment has inverted our cultures morality where the immoral person is now the one who judges homosexual behavior as sin and destructive to society.

So bend over and learn to like it.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MillCreek

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2018, 10:06:22 AM »
Ron, you seem to be an excellent role model for the moral superiority of heterosexuality.
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lupinus

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Re: Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2018, 11:18:42 AM »
All children in the USA are or soon will be required to be instructed on the moral superiority of homosexuality.

All stops must be pulled out to counteract the natural revulsion and disgust most humans feel towards homosexual behavior.

The conditioning (grooming) has to start at a young age so as to confuse the natural process of sexual maturation.

In less than one generation the news/media/education establishment has inverted our cultures morality where the immoral person is now the one who judges homosexual behavior as sin and destructive to society.

So bend over and learn to like it.

Paranoid much?

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mellestad

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2018, 11:28:49 AM »
@Amy--yea, people who do foster care for a long time (for the right reasons) are as close to saints as you're going to find. The amount of trauma they have to deal with is just insane. Especially short term care. If you're "lucky" the worst thing you have to deal with is some normal kids who just had their parents die in a car crash or something. It's downhill from there.

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Re: Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2018, 12:45:59 PM »
Paranoid much?

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Is it really paranoid?  I think that is where the media/leftists would like to go (and add in any other out-of-the-norm behavior/lifestyle) with it.  I don't know if the rest of the country will go with them, but we will see. 
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brimic

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Re: Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2018, 12:48:34 PM »
Is it really paranoid?  I think that is where the media/leftists would like to go (and add in any other out-of-the-norm behavior/lifestyle) with it.  I don't know if the rest of the country will go with them, but we will see.  

The latest push from the left is to normalize pedophilia.
They even have cute titles and slogans like 'Minor attracted persons' and 'Love is love.'

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Ron

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2018, 01:09:45 PM »
Ron, you seem to be an excellent role model for the moral superiority of heterosexuality.

With heterosexuality being how our species reproduces why would it be unusual to view healthy male/female relations along with healthy family dynamics to further our species as something sacred?

This has nothing to do with me personally other than my posting my observations.

If you missed it, in a different thread, Ive already copped to not being a role model regarding Christian sexual mores. My past failure to live up to a moral code doesn’t invalidate the moral code.

One could argue that there is a reason nearly every dominate culture and religion throughout all of human history looked unfavorably upon widespread acceptance of homosexuality. It is bad for families and destabilizes society in general.

Western Civ is already facing a demographic crises from crashing birth rates. Grooming young children in government schools to accept homosexual behavior as an expression of normal sexuality is frankly, insane.



For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

brimic

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Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2018, 01:18:28 PM »
Quote
If you missed it, in a different thread, Ive already copped to not being a role model regarding Christian sexual mores. My past failure to live up to a moral code doesn’t invalidate the moral code.

This.
Its the rare person who hasn't strayed from the straight and narrow, but that fact doesn't justify concern trolling in favor of pursuit of immorality.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Re: Easily Predictable (and predicted) Consequences of Gay "Marriage"
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2018, 03:48:35 PM »
The latest push from the left is to normalize pedophilia.
They even have cute titles and slogans like 'Minor attracted persons' and 'Love is love.'


Correct. They seem to have pretty much won the battle on normalizing homosexuality, so now it's on to a new front. One might suspect that, once they succeed in normalizing pedophilia, they'll move on to normalizing bestiality.
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