Author Topic: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash  (Read 2555 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2018, 02:16:57 PM »

And, of course, they all go splat the same way when you screw up bad enough.

Or just aim at the ground because you didn't intend to land it anyway ...
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2018, 02:26:28 PM »
One of the ancient crop duster pilots here used to say the fix for that is to turn the motors off.  Then they're nothing but glide slope and control response.  He'd trained bomber crews in WWII, so I figure he had some relevant experience.

And, of course, they all go splat the same way when you screw up bad enough.

You're not coming back up to the glideslope if you're under it, because you'll bleed off speed.
That might be the dumbest thing I've heard all week.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

BobR

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2018, 02:38:43 PM »
You're not coming back up to the glideslope if you're under it, because you'll bleed off speed.
That might be the dumbest thing I've heard all week.


Only if you are trying to hit a designated spot on the ground, if all you want to do is hit the ground all you have to do is hopefully keep from stalling until the wheels touch mother earth (hopefully on a reasonably flat piece).

bob

230RN

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2018, 02:42:01 PM »
Reminded me a little of Jonathan Livingston Seagull.  Not saying I liked the book, just that it reminded me of the book.  Never saw the movie.

Terry

REFs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Livingston_Seagull

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bach

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=58002.msg1172135#msg1172135
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 05:44:23 PM by 230RN »
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2018, 02:53:08 PM »
ummm... even if it had a low low chance of success, they still could have tried to get someone to talk the guy down.
 =|

It's not like doing so would have hurt anything.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2018, 03:25:21 PM »
ummm... even if it had a low low chance of success, they still could have tried to get someone to talk the guy down.
 =|

It's not like doing so would have hurt anything.

But that would only have had any potential if the guy had any intention of/desire to land. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I have the distinct impression that he intended from the git-go to commit suicide, and just wanted to have an aerial joy ride before he ended everything. Regardless of phrasing that he "crashed as a result of aerial maneuvers," I don't think he "crashed." I think he flew it into the ground.

Intentionally.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2018, 03:56:57 PM »
You're not coming back up to the glideslope if you're under it, because you'll bleed off speed.

The indicated glideslope for a given approach is an ideal, assuming - among other things - a pilot who's actually landed a plane before.  Q400 needs ~4300' at max landing weight, (granted, I don't know how much of that requires reverse thrust, but he's also likely way under max weight) and SEA has a runway just shy of 12,000'.  You can miss ideal by a lot and still have plenty of room to stop on that.  Shoot for touchdown on or beyond the 2000 foot mark and he's still got more than double the maximum stopping distance, plus if he's low, there's still room to land "short."

KD5NRH

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2018, 04:00:32 PM »
ummm... even if it had a low low chance of success, they still could have tried to get someone to talk the guy down.
 =|

It's not like doing so would have hurt anything.

Sea-Tac isn't quite out in the boonies.  IMO, the plane was likely to be a write off either way, so I'd have tried to talk him through ditching in the ocean near a CG ship.  (Mostly to recover the body and so it could be said that we tried everything to save him short of having him point a Taliban Torpedo right into a populated area.)

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2018, 04:43:52 PM »
But that would only have had any potential if the guy had any intention of/desire to land. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I have the distinct impression that he intended from the git-go to commit suicide, and just wanted to have an aerial joy ride before he ended everything. Regardless of phrasing that he "crashed as a result of aerial maneuvers," I don't think he "crashed." I think he flew it into the ground.

Intentionally.

*shrug* He asked for help and it's not like it could have made the situation worse.

And I know I don't know anything about how towers and such work, but I find it hard to believe that in this day and age you couldn't get someone on the phone from anywhere in the world who knew how to fly that plane to talk to the guy.

Consider my stance to be the same as my regards to my S&W 642. I wouldn't depend on it to save my life, but it's a good "all is lost, I'm dead anyway, might as well shoot and see if I get lucky" gun.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

Jamisjockey

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2018, 05:35:57 PM »
I'm glad all the aviation experts have weighed in now.  ;/
Not that I've ever handled hundreds of inflight emergencies, including disoriented (hypoxic) pilots, or pilots encountering IFR weather when they're not qualified or trained in handling it.  I'd say that a plane without a pilot ranks right up there as about as rare as getting struck by lightning while being bitten by a shark.

Just shitting out a pilot to talk him through anything isn't a guarantee.
We don't have some magic roster of pilots sitting next to the scope.
"Hey bob, it's jim.  Yeah I got another nutjob who needs help landing a plane he stole."
Some shifts we have several qualified and current pilots around, other shifts not a single one.



The indicated glideslope for a given approach is an ideal, assuming - among other things - a pilot who's actually landed a plane before.  Q400 needs ~4300' at max landing weight, (granted, I don't know how much of that requires reverse thrust, but he's also likely way under max weight) and SEA has a runway just shy of 12,000'.  You can miss ideal by a lot and still have plenty of room to stop on that.  Shoot for touchdown on or beyond the 2000 foot mark and he's still got more than double the maximum stopping distance, plus if he's low, there's still room to land "short."

You're assuming that the "pilot" wouldn't push the plane too low too far from the runway, to the point where you're not coming back up far enough to make the runway.
dumb
*expletive deleted*ing
idea.



JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

KD5NRH

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2018, 06:08:14 PM »
You're assuming that the "pilot" wouldn't push the plane too low too far from the runway, to the point where you're not coming back up far enough to make the runway.

I'm also assuming the "pilot" doesn't pull way up and either bounce off the hemispherical dome that covers our flat planet or swallow the sun and doom us all to a death by freezing.   

Jamisjockey

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2018, 06:38:57 PM »
I'm also assuming the "pilot" doesn't pull way up and either bounce off the hemispherical dome that covers our flat planet or swallow the sun and doom us all to a death by freezing.   

 ;/
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Fly320s

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2018, 07:47:37 PM »
This guy was on a suicide mission, no doubt about it.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2018, 09:46:30 PM »
Mike, give the midget one of your Snickers bars...
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Scout26

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2018, 11:20:44 PM »

Here's the part I like: It appears the ANG F-15s arrived on scene just in time to do a flyover and confirm the crash. Nonetheless:

Just how did they keep anyone on the ground safe?





They were on his six from when he turned around near Mt. Rainier, through the barrel roll, etc. and until he went down.

Also, I listened the entire audio of the incident (over 75 minutes total).  I think they actually did get a Q-400 pilot on the line to try to talk to him (whether he was in the tower or not, I don't know), but at one point he asks "The Pilot Guy" about fuel and how to pressurize the cabin.  (Which they tell him which switches to move.)

The thing that surprised me most was that they didn't get everyone else off the freq and onto an alternate freq.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1AlxFCJHNk

 
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230RN

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2018, 01:16:14 AM »
Impact, fire...

I'm wondering if there'll be enough collectable matter to tell if he was flying under the influence.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2018, 02:37:51 AM »

The thing that surprised me most was that they didn't get everyone else off the freq and onto an alternate freq.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1AlxFCJHNk
 

Sheesh! It's a good thing I didn't become a pilot.

The dialect of Spanish spoken in my wife's native country is essentially incomprehensible to me. I've heard other Spanish speakers say that the people from my wife's country seem to be having a contest to see who can speak Spanish the fastest. From this and other ATC audios I've listened to, it seems like ATC does the same thing for English. I tried listening to that video, and I had to give up. I caught maybe one or two words out of fifty.
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230RN

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2018, 02:56:42 AM »
I asked about that about a year ago and the upshot from the aviation people here was that most of the time, except for quantities, the patterns trigger what they were expecting to hear anyhow.

To "concretize" that in my head, I compared that answer to a lot of "hamspeak," especially on the CW bands.

"CW," see?  "Continuous Wave."  Meaning Morse Code.  <:REF  :rofl:

"Bands," see?  Selected portions of the electromagnetic (radio) spectrum for dedicated purposes.  <:REF  :rofl:

Terry

REF:
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=58002.msg1172135#msg1172135

« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 03:11:24 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2018, 08:40:00 AM »

"CW," see?  "Continuous Wave."  Meaning Morse Code.  <:REF  :rofl:

"Bands," see?  Selected portions of the electromagnetic (radio) spectrum for dedicated purposes.  <:REF  :rofl:


I'm glad you clarified that because, to me, a CW band is a music group with a steel guitar and a fiddle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAFxxMvK1jI
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2018, 09:10:12 AM »
They were on his six from when he turned around near Mt. Rainier, through the barrel roll, etc. and until he went down.

Also, I listened the entire audio of the incident (over 75 minutes total).  I think they actually did get a Q-400 pilot on the line to try to talk to him (whether he was in the tower or not, I don't know), but at one point he asks "The Pilot Guy" about fuel and how to pressurize the cabin.  (Which they tell him which switches to move.)

The thing that surprised me most was that they didn't get everyone else off the freq and onto an alternate freq.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1AlxFCJHNk

 

Depending on terrain and the transceiver sites, you may not have a lot of options for frequencies.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

grampster

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2018, 09:37:38 AM »
Sheesh! It's a good thing I didn't become a pilot.

The dialect of Spanish spoken in my wife's native country is essentially incomprehensible to me. I've heard other Spanish speakers say that the people from my wife's country seem to be having a contest to see who can speak Spanish the fastest. From this and other ATC audios I've listened to, it seems like ATC does the same thing for English. I tried listening to that video, and I had to give up. I caught maybe one or two words out of fifty.

I recall when I became a police cadet at age 19.  I got my first taste of listening to police radios.  It was incomprehensible.  Over a little bit of time, when you get immersed in two way radio chatter it suddenly becomes clear as a bell.  I guess that's called adaptation.
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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2018, 01:55:10 PM »
I'm glad you clarified that because, to me, a CW band is a music group with a steel guitar and a fiddle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAFxxMvK1jI

https://youtu.be/vS-zEH8YmiM
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230RN

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2018, 02:02:18 PM »
Yeah, whatever.

To me, REM still means "Rapid Eye Movement."  But then again, I'm Demented.

Terry

REFs (REM, William Dement):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement_sleep
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=58002.msg1172135#msg1172135


« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 02:58:59 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Sea-Tac hijacking followed by barrel roll and intentional crash
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2018, 04:37:32 PM »

To me, REM still means "Rapid Eye Movement."  But then again, I'm Demented.

Terry

REFs (REM, William Dement):


Yeah -- and REF is the guys in the striped uniforms on a football field, or the guy in the white shirt and bowtie in a boxing ring ...
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