Author Topic: Prosecutorial sadism?  (Read 3851 times)

MechAg94

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2018, 11:21:03 PM »
The article said the previous drug charge resulted from drugs found in the car and everyone was charged since no one admitted it was theirs.  Whether it was hers or not is unknown.  At a minimum, she has an issue with hanging out with the wrong crowd.  

To me, the idea of felons possessing guns is something few people want to talk about or think about.  If guns were only banned for certain crimes and there was a real path to restoring rights, I would have much less issue with it.  A lifetime ban sucks.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

De Selby

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2018, 04:28:05 AM »
The article said the previous drug charge resulted from drugs found in the car and everyone was charged since no one admitted it was theirs.  Whether it was hers or not is unknown.  At a minimum, she has an issue with hanging out with the wrong crowd.  

To me, the idea of felons possessing guns is something few people want to talk about or think about.  If guns were only banned for certain crimes and there was a real path to restoring rights, I would have much less issue with it.  A lifetime ban sucks.

There’s always a story about why they plead guilty.

The issue with felonies isn’t confined to the right to bear arms.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Firethorn

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2018, 05:40:34 AM »
Historically, crime rates go up and down for a variety of reasons, but an argument could be made that the reduction in crime over the past 25 years or so is because of (at least partially) the higher incarceration rate.  There is no way to quantify the deterrent effect of longer sentences or tougher prisons.  Certainly, some people are reluctant to commit even relatively minor offenses for fear of the consequences.  Hard core sociopaths are unlikely to be deterred no matter what the penalty.

Some things to dispute that is that crime rates have been going down around the world, regardless of how tough their prisons are.  As a matter of fact, the "nicest" prisons out there tend to have the fewest returnees. 

Some reasons for the reduction in crime rates include the elimination of leaded gasoline, development of better rehabilitation practices, better education, and older population, etc...


dogmush

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2018, 08:08:59 AM »

Maybe she is not telling the truth, and being involved in dodgy drug deals which can be hard to prosecute has tempted the police to choose an easily proved alternative in hopes she will give information or be punished for other crimes that they don’t have enough to prove.

Literally everything about the SD shooting, the conviction, and the guns puts up red flags

You say that like it's OK.  Like it's OK for the police to use the process as punishment, to try and extort her with threats of unjust imprisonment and to use other "crimes" as a proxy for something they just know she's guilty of, but can't prove.

Regardless of her past decisions or friends, she defended herself from a violent attack, with the best weapons she had on hand, even though those weapons belonged to her husband.  That shouldn't be illegal, and it shouldn't open the door to Police/Prosecutorial extortion.

De Selby

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2018, 08:42:28 AM »
You say that like it's OK.  Like it's OK for the police to use the process as punishment, to try and extort her with threats of unjust imprisonment and to use other "crimes" as a proxy for something they just know she's guilty of, but can't prove.

Regardless of her past decisions or friends, she defended herself from a violent attack, with the best weapons she had on hand, even though those weapons belonged to her husband.  That shouldn't be illegal, and it shouldn't open the door to Police/Prosecutorial extortion.


You’ve misunderstood me. I question whether it was a “violent attack” as opposed to a drug deal gone bad; and I suspect why the sensible choice of not charging the pregnant lady and then bringing a charge happened has to do with that.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

230RN

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2018, 09:19:05 AM »
...
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 10:07:07 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

MechAg94

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2018, 09:39:41 AM »
You’ve misunderstood me. I question whether it was a “violent attack” as opposed to a drug deal gone bad; and I suspect why the sensible choice of not charging the pregnant lady and then bringing a charge happened has to do with that.
=D It is bad enough that we have to talk about these things using typically inaccurate news stories.   =D

You do seem to assume guilt in one form or another on a lot of these stories.  I guess it is your profession.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

230RN

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2018, 10:19:43 AM »
I love it when questions, suppositions, gossip, and suspicions raise themselves --by their own bootstraps, as it were --to the level of "fact" and are later quoted/cited/brought up as if they were established truth.

Fun to watch.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

JN01

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2018, 04:58:37 PM »
Incarceration rate statistics aren't very useful without also looking at recidivism rates. That's what tells whether or not felons are being [successfully] rehabilitated.

Yes, but recidivism stats can also be manipulated.  For example, if you want to keep your stats artificially low, you could instruct parole officers to ignore some violations, or if they are of a serious nature, do not send them back to prison for violating the terms of parole, but have LE charge them with a new crime, resulting in a new inmate ID number-  Inmate 123-456 never returned to prison, but inmate 456-789 (the same guy) got sent up.  Not that government bean counters trying to make themselves look good would ever do anything like that.

Also, some recidivism stats are based on if they re-offend within 5 years.  If they get busted 7 years after being released, it may not be counted.

The stats also don't take into account those that are committing new crimes, but haven't been caught.

De Selby

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2018, 07:49:57 PM »
=D It is bad enough that we have to talk about these things using typically inaccurate news stories.   =D

You do seem to assume guilt in one form or another on a lot of these stories.  I guess it is your profession.

The shooting probably was justified - I’m pointing out that there are clear res flags about how it happened.  From the article:

Quote
Stancoff's girlfriend, Krishna Bragg, told police that she had previously lived with Tran when they were dating and that she had left all of her clothing and personal items with Tran, according to the report. She was sitting in the front seat of the gray vehicle when the shooting occurred, the report states.

Bragg and Stancoff were planning to head to California, where Stancoff lived, and she wanted to get some property back, according to the report. Bragg had "no idea that Tran had a new wife that lived with him at the apartment," the report states.

So the guy entering the house is connected to a girl who used to live on that house. And the woman at the centre is connected to drugs.  Not surprising that the cops are looking very hard at the situation.

There are enough signs to warrant holding off on declaring this an example of authorities pursuing a hapless citizen.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

dogmush

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2018, 08:28:22 PM »
The shooting probably was justified - I’m pointing out that there are clear res flags about how it happened.  From the article:

So the guy entering the house is connected to a girl who used to live on that house. And the woman at the centre is connected to drugs.  Not surprising that the cops are looking very hard at the situation.

There are enough signs to warrant holding off on declaring this an example of authorities pursuing a hapless citizen.


Dude attacked the woman in her own house.  That's established.  She should get a pass for whatever actions were needed to stop that attack.  I don't care if she summoned a *expletive deleted*ing demon to swallow his soul, she's allowed to defend herself.

Even if it IS a drug deal gone bad, she should be able to sell her weed without being attacked, and not pilloried for stopping an attack if it occurs.

De Selby

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2018, 10:23:20 PM »
Dude attacked the woman in her own house.  That's established.  She should get a pass for whatever actions were needed to stop that attack.  I don't care if she summoned a *expletive deleted*ing demon to swallow his soul, she's allowed to defend herself.

Even if it IS a drug deal gone bad, she should be able to sell her weed without being attacked, and not pilloried for stopping an attack if it occurs.

She should be able to sell her weed legally and whatever else really. And she should not be attacked. My point is that the “innocent mum persecuted” line is a bit overplayed given all the red flags.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

p12

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2018, 11:43:45 PM »

Some reasons for the reduction in crime rates include the elimination of leaded gasoline...

Say what?


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MechAg94

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2018, 12:02:29 AM »
Say what?


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I have heard that proposed as a cause, but I have no idea what research if any backs it up.  It sounds more plausible than the connection between pirates and global warming. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

De Selby

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2018, 02:19:09 AM »
I have heard that proposed as a cause, but I have no idea what research if any backs it up.  It sounds more plausible than the connection between pirates and global warming. 

Lead poisoning and higher concentrations of lead are proven to cause brain damage that results in higher levels of aggression.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Firethorn

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Re: Prosecutorial sadism?
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2018, 11:31:16 PM »
I have heard that proposed as a cause, but I have no idea what research if any backs it up.  It sounds more plausible than the connection between pirates and global warming.  

Basically, on the statistical side, there is a heavy correlation between lead exposure through leaded gasoline and crime ~18 years later.  18 years after leaded gasoline use starts, violent crime skyrockets.  It tracks overall with the usage of leaded gasoline, and cities, with the heaviest, densest use, see the most crime increase. 18 years AFTER use of leaded gasoline ceases, crime drops.  This tracks with multiple locations, so cities that stopped usage first saw their crime rates drop first.  Cities that stopped last, had violent crime last the longest.  They were even able to come up with formulas for X amount of leaded gasoline burned = Y amount of violent crime a couple decades later.  

On the medical side, various studies have shown that lead damages the emotional control parts of the brain, leading to increased violence.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-crime_hypothesis
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-lead-crime-roundup-for-2018/

Quote
In a nutshell, this article argues that atmospheric lead from gasoline tailpipes rose steadily after World War II, affecting babies born in the late 40s and beyond. The leading edge of this generation became teenagers in the late 60s and was more prone than previous generations to committing violent crime. Every year the population of teenagers with lead poisoning increased, and violent crime increased with it. This is why the 70s and 80s were eras in which crime skyrocketed.

In the early 70s the United States began to phase out leaded gasoline and newborns became steadily less lead poisoned. Like clockwork, as the leading edge of this generation became teenagers in the early 90s, the crime wave started to recede. By 2010, an entire generation of teenagers and young adults—the age group responsible for most crime—had grown up nearly lead free, and the violent crime rate had plummeted to half or less of its high point. This happened across the board: in big and small cities; among blacks and whites; in every state; in every city; and, as it turns out, in every other country that also phased out leaded gasoline.

It’s important to emphasize that the lead-crime hypothesis doesn’t claim that lead is solely responsible for crime. It primarily explains only one thing: the huge rise in crime of the 70s and 80s and the equally huge—and completely unexpected—decline in crime of the 90s and aughts. The lead-crime hypothesis is the answer to the question mark in the stylized chart below:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2017/06/01/new-evidence-that-lead-exposure-increases-crime/

etc...

It even helps show why flight from the cities was such a deal, and why young people are flocking back into them now, as violent crime and pollution inside cities is no longer so prevalent as to make them unlivable to anybody who can afford to get out.

It is one of the reasons why, even I'm mostly libertarian, I'm generally for the EPA.  Because it is entirely possible to put things in the atmosphere that harms others.  No different than if somebody stuck a pipe from their toilet into your bedroom.  And it's a bill that most can't pay.