The illegal invader caravan thread

[charby]

They need to raise the pay scale to attract workers.

If it’s hard work it is worth more than $12 an hour in this economy.

Gas station attendants make that in some areas.

I know, McD's and warehouse jobs up here pay the same. No one want to pay more for goods and services, so unskilled wages don't raise much.

[Angel Eyes]

Don't forget that the millions of illegals in the U.S. are a major factor in keeping those wages low.

[lupinus]

I know, McD's and warehouse jobs up here pay the same. No one want to pay more for goods and services, so unskilled wages don't raise much.

Of course they don't want to pay more. No one ever wants to spend more than the minimum. But in order to stay in business you need things like employees. Importing a cheap labor source isn't a particularly good way to get around having to pay decent rates to attract decent workers.

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[charby]

Of course they don't want to pay more. No one ever wants to spend more than the minimum. But in order to stay in business you need things like employees. Importing a cheap labor source isn't a particularly good way to get around having to pay decent rates to attract decent workers.

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I doubt they are going to either, too much of the Birkshire Hathaway mindset, where employees are liabilities and easily replaced or made to work harder for same/less money, be thankful they have a job, and get a expected rate of return year in and year out with the company.

[Hawkmoon]

Importing a cheap labor source isn't a particularly good way to get around having to pay decent rates to attract decent workers.

It is if there's an endless supply of them. If one doesn't work out, you just fire him/her and hire the next one.

Illegals are especially useful in hazardous occupations like asbestos abatement. The employer doesn't have to waste spend money on annoying legalities like training or personal protective equipment because in the unlikely event the workers find out they're supposed to have training and PPE ... who are they going to complain to?

[Scout26]

I would agree with you but with the ultra low unemployment in some areas, there is a need to for folks wanting a better life. Hell there is at least 2000 unfilled positions in the area where I live, granted most of them don't pay much more than $10-12 and are hard work, but someone needs to fill those jobs. 

Why not jut bring back slavery instead??

[dogmush]

Why not jut bring back slavery instead??

They are. Along with Communism,  where the government owns the means of production.

Ponder that for a second.

[charby]

Why not jut bring back slavery instead??

I still don't know why the government doesn't go after those employee undocumented workers, fine them into bankruptcy by not playing by the rules. Seize assets, they do it when they break other federal laws like manufacturing/distribution on a controlled substance, wire fraud, illegal business practices (like Tyco or Bernie Madoff).

[Ben]

This unskilled labor argument will be interesting in 20 years when robots are running McDonalds and are the main labor force in commercial agriculture.

[MechAg94]

I still don't know why the government doesn't go after those employee undocumented workers, fine them into bankruptcy by not playing by the rules. Seize assets, they do it when they break other federal laws like manufacturing/distribution on a controlled substance, wire fraud, illegal business practices (like Tyco or Bernie Madoff).

They give a lot of money to politicians.  Big Business likes cheap commodity labor.  They don't want to have to deal with competition in the labor market especially for hourly employees.

[Scout26]

I still don't know why the government doesn't go after those employee undocumented workers, fine them into bankruptcy by not playing by the rules. Seize assets, they do it when they break other federal laws like manufacturing/distribution on a controlled substance, wire fraud, illegal business practices (like Tyco or Bernie Madoff).

Fine them, yes.  Into Bankruptcy, No.   I have no problem with that.  But at the same time, eliminate the minimum wage.  The economic ladder needs to have bottom rungs. 

[Sindawe]

For the businesses that hire illegal aliens

Unwitting hire, be sure, or be spanked: $5000 fine for each illegal alien/month of employment. 

Knowingly hire, Welcome to pauperdom: All financial assets are forfeit and disbursed to any legal employees except executives and officers as compensation for their unemployment.  All physical assets are forfeit and crushed to dust.  All IP assets are cast into the public domain.  All assets of all company executives & officers are seized at a 75% penalty and the proceeds dispersed to the rest of the legal employees.  All executives and officers are forever barred from holding such positions again.

[230RN]

Haisoos Aitch Christ, are you guys listening to yourselves?  Talk about leftie-commie gooberment domination.

Here's a starting point:

Firmly block illegals, allow documented migrants in to fill in during harvests, etc, let the wages settle to an arm's length negotiated natural level*, get them back home when done.  

Let the free enterprise system work within the parameters of legal immigration, or work permits for the temporary help needed.  

They are supposed to be migrants.

Maybe I need more coffee, but that business of overwhelming punishment seems pretty unwise and fraught with unintended consequences all by itself.

Let not your outrage destroy your wisdom.

Terry

* Meaning no mandated lower level.

[Hawkmoon]

Here's a starting point:

Firmly block illegals, allow documented migrants in to fill in during harvests, etc, let the wages settle to an arm's length negotiated natural level*, get them back home when done.

We have a program for doing just that. Many (dare I say "most"?) of these (and many other) illegals aren't interested in participating because of that whole "get them back home when done" part.

Maybe I need more coffee, but that business of overwhelming punishment seems pretty unwise and fraught with unintended consequences all by itself.

I have to disagree. There's a reason why the usual suspects prefer to call illegal aliens "undocumented immigrants." Two reasons, in fact, both contained in the simple phrase. One is that the illegals are immigrants, they are not migrants. They don't want to go back home seasonally, and they don't. They want to stay here, taking jobs away from people who are here legally, and siphoning money out of the U.S. economy to send back to their native country. Second, anyone who is here legally has a document to prove that they're here legally. Birth certificate, passport, green card ... something. For every job I've taken or been in the final cut for over the past fifteen (maybe more) years, I have either had to show proof that I'm legally entitled to work in the U.S., or I've been alerted that I will have to produce such documentation if hired.

In fact, that's the law. I don't see how any employer today can possibly claim they "unknowingly" hired an illegal, unless the said illegal had a very well executed counterfeit birth certificate, passport, or green card. Consequently, I'm fully in favor of punishing employers who hire illegals. Those who do often pay them under the table, at less than minimum wage, so they not only prevent legal citizens and legal residents from finding work, they also drive down the prevailing wage for the area.

Maybe it's just sour grapes on my part. When I married my late wife, we jumped through all the hoops to be sure that she would be 100 percent legal when she got here. That kept us apart for six months after the marriage, because I was in the U.S. working and she had to wait in South America until her green card application was processed and approved. To see hordes of illegals who think they have a "right" to skip the system, ignore the laws, and just walk in really [irritates me].

[charby]

Fine them, yes.  Into Bankruptcy, No.   I have no problem with that.  But at the same time, eliminate the minimum wage.  The economic ladder needs to have bottom rungs. 

If we eliminate the minimum wage, then every employee gets a individual contract with a terms on wage/benefits for the duration of the contract, contracts need to be a minimum of 6 months, maximum 12 months if the job is continuous employment type position. That way an employer can't drop wages on their employees whenever they want, need to wait until contract renewal time.

Salary only to 40 hours, anything over 40 hours must be paid at a minimum of 1.5 the rate per hour in the contract, either by money or by paid leave. Any unused leave has to be paid out in US currency at end of employment.

Layoff would result in 100% several pay of the remainder of the contract.

Then we can get ride of minimum wage laws.

[charby]

For the businesses that hire illegal aliens

Unwitting hire, be sure, or be spanked: $5000 fine for each illegal alien/month of employment. 

Knowingly hire, Welcome to pauperdom: All financial assets are forfeit and disbursed to any legal employees except executives and officers as compensation for their unemployment.  All physical assets are forfeit and crushed to dust.  All IP assets are cast into the public domain.  All assets of all company executives & officers are seized at a 75% penalty and the proceeds dispersed to the rest of the legal employees.  All executives and officers are forever barred from holding such positions again.

I'm a bigger fan of $1000 per day employed per illegal, so 100 days is going to cost you $100k per illegal employee.

Don't crush assets, sell them, legal employees get the proceeds after debts paid.

[charby]

Haisoos Aitch Christ, are you guys listening to yourselves?  Talk about leftie-commie gooberment domination.

No, those who engage in the practice of hiring illegal aliens are defrauding the government and citizens of the US. Let them be burned.

I have seen too much of that crap here in Iowa with the agricultural segment. DeCoster Farms, Agriprocessors, etc. You can Google them.

[Scout26]

If we eliminate the minimum wage, then every employee gets a individual contract with a terms on wage/benefits for the duration of the contract, contracts need to be a minimum of 6 months, maximum 12 months if the job is continuous employment type position. That way an employer can't drop wages on their employees whenever they want, need to wait until contract renewal time.

Salary only to 40 hours, anything over 40 hours must be paid at a minimum of 1.5 the rate per hour in the contract, either by money or by paid leave. Any unused leave has to be paid out in US currency at end of employment.

Layoff would result in 100% several pay of the remainder of the contract.

Then we can get ride of minimum wage laws.

Here I am trying to get the .gov OUT of the labor market, and you are trying to jam more IN. 

I never worked somewhere that I had a contract.  I was always an "At Will" employee, meaning that I could leave anytime I felt or they could get rid of me anytime they felt.   Keep in mind your contract runs both ways.  If the employer can't drop wages or terminate me, then I can't demand higher wages or leave for a better offer until the end of the contract.

How about the employer and employee decide wages, hours, and working conditions.  If any of those change to the employee's dis-satisfaction, he/she is free to leave and move on to bigger and better things.  Same if the employer decides that the employee is not meeting whatever the job requirements are, and yes, the job can change as the market changes.

You sound like someone is afraid to take a risk or be vulnerable.  You seem to demand safety and security.  There is usually little reward in hiding in safety, those who take risks usually reap the greatest rewards.

[zxcvbob]

I still don't know why the government doesn't go after those employee undocumented workers, fine them into bankruptcy by not playing by the rules. Seize assets, they do it when they break other federal laws like manufacturing/distribution on a controlled substance, wire fraud, illegal business practices (like Tyco or Bernie Madoff).

You really don't know?  Republican elites *love* illegal aliens because they drive wages down.  Democrat elites love illegals for the illegal votes (and to a lesser extent, the low wages)  Both sides give the ol' middle finger to American workers; the Republicans just give a little lip service to opposing illegals.

Trump is upsetting the apple cart... but he's not upsetting it very much because his party doesn't want him to.

[MillCreek]

They give a lot of money to politicians.  Big Business likes cheap commodity labor.  They don't want to have to deal with competition in the labor market especially for hourly employees.

And the dot coms/high tech love the H1B visa: take a paycut or train your replacement from India.

[RoadKingLarry]

I would agree with you but with the ultra low unemployment in some areas, there is a need to for folks wanting a better life. Hell there is at least 2000 unfilled positions in the area where I live, granted most of them don't pay much more than $10-12 and are hard work, but someone needs to fill those jobs. 

I agree! What this country needs more than anything is a low income, low education, non-English speaking underclass that can be exploited.

If there is a job to be done and the prospective employer cannot find anyone to hire then maybe the employer needs to raise the starting wage rather than importing poverty.

[charby]

Here I am trying to get the .gov OUT of the labor market, and you are trying to jam more IN. 

I never worked somewhere that I had a contract.  I was always an "At Will" employee, meaning that I could leave anytime I felt or they could get rid of me anytime they felt.   Keep in mind your contract runs both ways.  If the employer can't drop wages or terminate me, then I can't demand higher wages or leave for a better offer until the end of the contract.

How about the employer and employee decide wages, hours, and working conditions.  If any of those change to the employee's dis-satisfaction, he/she is free to leave and move on to bigger and better things.  Same if the employer decides that the employee is not meeting whatever the job requirements are, and yes, the job can change as the market changes.

You sound like someone is afraid to take a risk or be vulnerable.  You seem to demand safety and security.  There is usually little reward in hiding in safety, those who take risks usually reap the greatest rewards.

I read your argument for less .gov and I see this

[freakazoid]

I read your argument for less .gov and I see this

You mean like this?

[Boomhauer]

It’s funny how when someone calls for less .gov bullshit governing employment the response is always “butbutbut you want child labor!” Or less environmental regs then it’s  “but you want rivers on fire!”

[charby]

You mean like this?

That is family farm labor. Religious even.