Pittsburgh Synagouge shooting.

[Scout26]

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2018/10/27/reports-multiple-casualties-after-shooting-at-pittsburgh-synagogue/

Prayers for those affected.  This might push the Florida Bomber off the news for a day or so, since it's a white guy (In custody) that did he shooting.

[MillCreek]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/pittsburgh-police-confirms-active-shooter-at-synagogue-multiple-victims-reported

Wow, eight dead.

[BlueStarLizzard]

The leftist of twitter are already blaming Trump.

[MillCreek]

Some British papers are reporting it was a white guy with a beard who walked into the synagogue, shouted 'All Jews must die' and opened fire.  Opened fire with what has not yet been specified.

[grampster]

Apparently he got in a gun fight with LE, hitting 2 or 3.    When he surrendered they found two handguns on him.  No mention of whatever other firearms he may or my not have had.

Well that didn't take long to occur.  Didn't someone here on APS on a thread predict a mass shooting to occur a couple days ago? 

[Hawkmoon]

Shooter's name doesn't sound Arabic so perhaps not Islamic terrorism, although "All Jews must die" isn't an especially ecumenical statement. It will be interesting to see if they come up with a motive.

Of course, I have the usual questions: Aside from whether or not it was Islamic terrorism, I also need to know if the synagogue had declared itself to be a gun-free zone, and whether the firearm(s) used was/were assault weapon(s).

[Hawkmoon]

According to Alex Jones, the shooter was a Trump hater:

https://www.infowars.com/synagogue-shooter-disliked-trump-posted-i-did-not-vote-for-him/

The Gateway Pundit says he's a Nazi:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/10/report-pittsburgh-shooter-named-on-police-scanner-is-a-nazi-hated-donald-trump-thought-trump-controlled-by-jews/

[TommyGunn]

According to Fox News,  he had 3 handguns and an "assault rifle,"  and shouted "all Jews must die" before opening up.

Definantly an antisemitic hate crime,  but beyond that,  much haziness remains.

[Scout26]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/27/us/synagogue-attack-suspect-robert-bowers-profile/index.html

He seems anti-Trump.  I haven't heard about the firearms used other then 2 handguns and a rifle, possibly an AK.

I did find this disconcerting...

Bowers has an active license and has made at least six known firearm purchases since 1996, a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation said. On September 29, Bowers posted photos of his handgun collection on his Gab.com account, which included multiple clips and sights. A rifle and three handguns were found on the scene of the attack, the FBI said.

[freakazoid]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/27/us/synagogue-attack-suspect-robert-bowers-profile/index.html

He seems anti-Trump.  I haven't heard about the firearms used other then 2 handguns and a rifle, possibly an AK.

I did find this disconcerting...

So this really is Trump's fault...

[Boomhauer]

The NPCs are of course bleating on about ammosexuals and Trump encouraged violence

[Ben]

Another Ben tangent: I know several others here have similar death penalty views to my own - that is, in favor, but only with 100% certainty for heinous crimes, and then SWIFT justice, vs 10 years of appeals first. I think this one qualifies.

I would further (and I'm prepared for flaming), suggest that it doesn't need to be a particularly painless or compassionate death. Sometimes I think the Middle East has the right idea (if unjustly applied). These nutballs seem to do this stuff for notoriety, thinking they will either go down in a blaze of glory or else be captured and be able to read about themselves for years.

I wonder how many of them would have done what they did if they knew the punishment was not "being put to sleep", but hanging, beheading (both quick, but considered "grisly") or perhaps, in karmic justice in this case, stuck in an oven and burned to death. I realize we will never do such things in the US (anymore), and there are good reasons why, but also have to wonder how many potential whackos would think twice if they knew that if caught, they would actually suffer.

In the end though, a swift and painless death penalty for a "100%" crime like this, might be almost as good of a deterrent. Or if not a deterrent, at least the removal of monsters.

[grampster]

I agree with Ben with respect to whether the death penalty should be continued.  100% certainty of guilt displayed at a trial.  The execution carried out no later than the next day.  Hanging done properly works fine.  Gravity is free and rope is cheap.

[Ben]

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2018/10/28/give-it-a-rest-john-harwood-called-out-for-using-bodies-of-murdered-jews-to-prop-up-his-partisan-hackery/

BTW, can someone clue me in on the decoder needed for "racially coded language"?

Is it this one from this white dog whistle movie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_XSShVAnkY

[MechAg94]

IMO, any death penalty should be quick, clean, and relatively painless.  That is better not just for the person being executed, but for those that have to carry it out.  Anything else seems to make it not about justice, but revenge or other motivations. 

[Scout26]

I really torn on this.  (No, not on shooting up a synagogue or other place of worship). 

I'm pretty anti-illegal immigrant.  However, there are people fleeing from places where if they would have stayed they would have been killed.  (Iraq Christians immediately jump to mind.) Plus the people you jump through all the stupid hoops to get either a green card and/or become citizens.  So those folks, true refugees and immigrants I joyfully welcome with open arms.

However, there are many people that claim they are refugee's, like the hoard(s)/caravan(s)) heading north from Honduras/Guatemala.  Last I checked there's no civil war there.  The government isn't rounding up people, any people, and putting them in camps or executing them outright.  So, sorry.  Not Refugees.  You're only coming here for the money.  The fact that Mexico has offered to take you in and give you food, shelter, clothing, and jobs; yet you insist on pushing until you get the US border, just proves that fact.

But I also get where these synagogues are coming from.  Years of persecution, fleeing from war, governments, regimes, even just groups of civilians that want you dead, and pogroms.   I get it.  We've been on the receiving end of all that.  The SS Saint Louis is always in the back of our minds.  That we can't do, what was done to us, we HAVE TO provide refuge.  All the synagogues around here in involved with resettling and aiding refugees.  Whether the congregation is Reform, Conservative or Orthodox, they all are involved.   Yes, we are supposed to do good works and make the world better.   I get it.  I think we just need to tighten up the definition of "refugee".
 

[Hawkmoon]

Yes, we are supposed to do good works and make the world better.   I get it.  I think we just need to tighten up the definition of "refugee".
 

The .gov has a definition of "refugee," and a program to admit refugees who meet the definition. There is also a process for legal immigration. If churches and synagogues want to help refugees and immigrants, that's fine with me. But help the ones who come in legally.

[MechAg94]

I don't like the idea of a bunch of "refugees" being resettled in the US on the whim of whatever President is in office.  That has been done by the tens of thousands or more in the last 20 years.  (I think I maybe understating the number)

[dogmush]

The .gov has a definition of "refugee," and a program to admit refugees who meet the definition. There is also a process for legal immigration. If churches and synagogues want to help refugees and immigrants, that's fine with me. But help the ones who come in legally.

I agree.

FWIW, however, I recently had cause to read up on asylum seeking on the .gov website, and it specifically allows seeking asylum if one is here illegally.

To obtain asylum through the affirmative asylum process you must be physically present in the United States. You may apply for asylum status regardless of how you arrived in the United States or your current immigration status.

...

Affirmative asylum applicants are rarely detained by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). You may live in the United States while your application is pending before USCIS. If you are found ineligible, you can remain in the United States while your application is pending with the Immigration Judge. Most asylum applicants are not authorized to work.

There's a step by step breakdown here: https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/affirmative-asylum-process

Step one is to be physically in the US, or at a US Port of Entry.  That would seem to be almost tailor made for the kind of things the churches/synagogues are doing, i.e. getting refugees here, and then requesting asylum.

[fifth_column]

I wonder how many of them would have done what they did if they knew the punishment was not "being put to sleep", but hanging, beheading (both quick, but considered "grisly") or perhaps, in karmic justice in this case, stuck in an oven and burned to death.

In the end though, a swift and painless death penalty for a "100%" crime like this, might be almost as good of a deterrent. Or if not a deterrent, at least the removal of monsters.

In these types of cases, I don't think the manner of their death after being caught and tried is of any concern to them since they have no expectation of survival anyway.  Perhaps it would be a deterrent if the perpetrator knew that his actions would result in the punishment of people he cared about (if any.)  But that would be barbaric . . . .

[Hawkmoon]

Perhaps it would be a deterrent if the perpetrator knew that his actions would result in the punishment of people he cared about (if any.)  But that would be barbaric . . . .

Or Chinese, or North Korean.

[Ron]

Diversity + proximity = conflict

The only thing that will hold it together is an all powerful State.

Even then, that’s just buying time.

IMHO

Be nice if I was wrong about this.

We’ve eliminated all the traditional ties that bind.

We live in cargo cult America.

[Scout26]

Perhaps it would be a deterrent if the perpetrator knew that his actions would result in the punishment of people he cared about (if any.)  But that would be barbaric . . . .

Or Chinese, or North Korean.

As long as we don't charge the family for the bullet, we'd still be slightly better then the Norks or PRC. 

Anyway,  My major concern was how did they know, in less then 12 hours, that he had purchased 6 guns over the past several years....Unless they could look it up quickly, in some type of database....

[dogmush]

As long as we don't charge the family for the bullet, we'd still be slightly better then the Norks or PRC. 

Anyway,  My major concern was how did they know, in less then 12 hours, that he had purchased 6 guns over the past several years....Unless they could look it up quickly, in some type of database....

Pennsylvania State Police maintains a database of all handgun sales. It's possible they just ran his name through that, got 6 hits for pistols and ran with it.

(18 PA C.S. § 6111)

[MechAg94]

As long as we don't charge the family for the bullet, we'd still be slightly better then the Norks or PRC. 

Anyway,  My major concern was how did they know, in less then 12 hours, that he had purchased 6 guns over the past several years....Unless they could look it up quickly, in some type of database....

Speaking of NK, would Trump's new buddy in NK like to resettle several thousand Honduran refugees?