Things that I am tired of in this war:

[Perd Hapley]

I still hear from people about how the troops don't have any armor.

Did they complain about that in 2001 or 2002, when we had guys in Afghanistan? 

[wingnutx]

That started with Iraq, iirc.

[Perd Hapley]

Yeah, that's what I how I remember it.  Very interesting. 

From the article linked to by wingnutx:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2007/01/the_troops_also_need_to_suppor.html

I'm all for everyone expressing their opinion, even those who wear the uniform of the United States Army. But I also hope that military commanders took the soldiers aside after the story and explained to them why it wasn't for them to disapprove of the American people.

Imagine this writer's outrage if "military commanders" were to silence anti-war dissent among troops. 

So, we pay the soldiers a decent wage, take care of their families, provide them with housing and medical care and vast social support systems and ship obscene amenities into the war zone for them, we support them in every possible way, and their attitude is that we should in addition roll over and play dead, defer to the military and the generals and let them fight their war, and give up our rights and responsibilities to speak up because they are above society?

No, just stop ridiculing and defaming the civilian leadership that was elected and then re-elected after the war was begun. 

This would all be quite a display of nerve, were it not a display of idiocy. 

One final gem:

I'll accept that the soldiers, in order to soldier on, have to believe that they are manning the parapet, and that's where their frustrations come in. I'll accept as well that they are young and naïve and are frustrated with their own lack of progress and the never changing situation in Iraq. Cut off from society and constantly told that everyone supports them, no wonder the debate back home confuses them.

Curious how the media seem to believe that no one in the military has passed the age of thirty.  Just sad how this moron thinks the people in country are naive and confused, while everything is clear to his sheltered, stateside point of view.  Cute. 

[Dannyboy]

Leaving the party stuff aside, the part that bothers me most is the part about how he thinks we are conducting the war and using soldiers as police.

Ufortunately, he's right.  Our guys are nothing more than heavily armed SWAT teams, right now.  They're more busy arresting people than actually killing insurgents.  Of course, their ROE are so vague and contradictory to actual warfighting that they have little choice but to act as policemen.

[Phantom Warrior]

Wow.  I found the original post rather interesting.  When I saw this thread last night I was going to post a comment this morning about SGMs and CSMs acting like we are still in garrison.  And about people in Kuwait getting combat pay.  But this morning I find that this thread has grown into three pages of Bush bashing and argument of the Iraq war.  Sweet thread drift, guys.

[280plus]

The problem is during peace time all the folks in charge are peace time pencil pushers worried about their careers. It takes a while to transform from that into anything with savvy field commanders that can take it to the enemy. In a lot of cases it takes attrition, cause the peacetimers aren't going anywhere till they make their retirements. I was in the "peacetime" Navy during the cold war. I more than had my fill of the pencil pushers when I was in. Hang in there guys. I'm reminded of Chesty Puller. He was a wartime Colonel / General. As soon as there was no more war for him he was thrown out like yesterdays newspaper.

[Perd Hapley]

Phantom Warrior, welcome to the internet.   

[Manedwolf]

I still hear from people about how the troops don't have any armor.

Did they complain about that in 2001 or 2002, when we had guys in Afghanistan? 

I still have not seen a good answer as to why, if the VIPs all wear Dragon Skin when they visit, why EVER SINGLE FREAKING SOLDIER doesn't have access to Dragon Skin, without having to pay for it out of their own pocket. So what if the maker can't make it "quickly enough", which I sincerely doubt. IT'S a WAR. When Willys couldn't make enough jeeps, contracts were given to Ford for the same design specs. You DO those things when you have a war.

That, and it's a disgrace that we're "short" on vehicles and equipment how many years into this thing? Has anyone satisfactorily explained why a handful of small operators are building and maintaining the vehicles at great profit, rather than a WWII-style conversion of ailing automaker plants to fulltime Humvee, etc...production?

[MechAg94]

People are bitching every day about the budget deficits and you want a WWII mobilization? 

Last I heard earlier last year, DragonSkin armor was NOT the military's standard body armor and they frowned on guys getting and wearing their own armor.  I am not sure if that has changed. 
Who needs armor?  Normally it would be the front line combat troops.  In this war, everyone seems to be at target and wants/needs body armor.  If you noticed on the original post, the guy was complaining that they are being made to wear body armor because it is too heavy and slows him down. 
You can't make everyone bullet proof and protect them under all circumstances.  Body armor has limited usefulness against IED's anyway.

[Manedwolf]

People are bitching every day about the budget deficits and you want a WWII mobilization? 

Yes?

This is either a WAR, or it's just a prolonged quagmire of attrition with insufficient material support.

[MechAg94]

Which vehicles are insufficient?  Armored transport?

[Perd Hapley]

you want a WWII mobilization? 

Yes?  This is either a WAR, or it's just a prolonged quagmire of attrition with insufficient material support.

If you're saying there should have been a formal declaration of war (or several of them) then I'm inclined to agree with you.  I don't know if the govt. can do the sort of thing you're talking about without one.  I am skeptical of reports about "shortages," that always seem to come from war detractors, but keep in mind armies are always short on something-or-other.  Logistics is complicated.

Armor: 

So far as I know, the Bush administration is the first to even attempt to outfit every soldier with body armor, other than flak vests which don't stop bullets.  A lot of the troops don't seem to want them.  (When I was a grunt about seven years ago, I had a squad leader who thought we should not even wear helmets unless we were actually making a planned assault.  He read a lot of history, so maybe he was just old-school.)

If VIPs are getting more or better armor, (if they are) it is because they are VIPs.  That should be obvious.  Whatever you may think of Rumsfeld or others, they are high-value targets, if only for the symbolic victory of killing or hurting them.  And people like that have training, experience and education that (hopefully) qualifies them to do what such people do.  Grunts like I was don't have those qualifications.  That's one reason we were intended for dangerous missions. 

[The Rabbi]

People are bitching every day about the budget deficits and you want a WWII mobilization? 

Yes?

This is either a WAR, or it's just a prolonged quagmire of attrition with insufficient material support.

You're kidding, right?
There is no, zero, reason to mobilize ala WW2.  No one wants this.  No one thinks it's necessary.  And they are right.  Last reports I saw talked about the US wasting millions of dollars.  Anytime the gov't pumps millions and billions of dollars into a project stuff gets wasted.  Look at Katrina.  Shoving more money mindlessly into the maw will only result in more waste, not better results.

[wingnutx]

I still have not seen a good answer as to why, if the VIPs all wear Dragon Skin when they visit, why EVER SINGLE FREAKING SOLDIER doesn't have access to Dragon Skin, without having to pay for it out of their own pocket. 

I had to drive some 2-stars around, and they wore Interceptors. I think the "all vips wear dragonskin" is greatly overblown. A lot about dragonskin is greatly overblown. I think it's pretty slick, but may or may not be ready for prime-time.

Good first-hand review over on lightfighter.net from a guy who bought one, btw.

[grampster]

"....Westerners habitually and ignorantly misconceive the responses they are likely to encounter from the Arabs, unsuitably and even laughably projecting their own political and moral attitudes where these cannot apply.  Since the Suez campaign of 1956, there have been several Western expeditionary forces in the Middle East, for instance in the attempt to free American embassy personnel held hostage in Teheran in 1979, in Lebanon in October 1983, and in the Gulf in 1987.  Depending on the interests at stake, either such entry into the Middle East should be avoided altogether for the sake of the shame-based hostility it will trigger, or it must be undertaken with inflexible determination to  use whatever force is required for supreme arbitration." (emphasis mine)  Author David Pryce-Jones The Closed Circle, published 1989 

"Three years' effort went into the writing of The Closed Circle, but it is the fruit of a lifelong interest in the subject, which began with childhood experiences in Morocco and continued, over the course of his career, to draw Pryce-Jones back to the Middle East to study Arab history and culture."

"In a fascinating exploration of a complex culture, he describes how codes of shame, honor, and power challenging, underlying Arab society for centuries, are alien to Western concepts of order, loyalty, and justice.  These codes form the dark subtext of the Middle Eastern dilemma, the element that has so confounded Western diplomatic and economic efforts....and until we come to grips with the deeper forces driving the Arabs, our misconceptions will continue to undermine our Middle Eastern policies."  (From the dust jacket of The Closed Circle.)

It's too bad some of our leaders fail to study the ramifications of actions, no matter how necessary they seem, or not.  There is vast ignorance on both sides of the aisle in Washington.  Also on the pages of this thread.

[Bigjake]

You guys managed to miss the biggest one on that list,

I am tired of Rules of Engagement being made by JAG lawyers and not Combat Commanders.  We are not playing Hopscotch over here.  There is no 2nd place trophy either.  I think that if the enemy knew some rough treatment and some deprivation was at hand for them, instead of prayer rugs, special diets and free Korans; this might help get their terrorist minds right.

[doc2rn]

We just put off this discussion until after the Islamic Nutjobs do something gnarsty again inside the continental US... And there WILL be a next time. Then the same people who are crying about international unfairness will be crying for heads on stakes, and wondering why our elected officials are not working in a speedier fashion towards that goal.- Bogie

I know a way to fix this. It's cheaper than what we spent already, and it envolves alot of glass making.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

I seem to recall the Army being unimpressed with Dragonskin armor... from what I read, the stuff didn't hold up too well in hot weather.

http://www.army.mil/-news/2007/05/22/3292-army-defends-body-armor-quality/

Some folks say the tests were fudged, though.

[James Fitzer]

To whomever said they heard the troops don't have adequate armor...

Every soldier in theater has the interceptor, and a bunch of heavy, cumbersome additions and attachments to said armor.

The side SAPI i liked... they felt solid. I never wore the collar though. The collar, plus my 6 foot 6 body, meant sitting in a HMMWV was impossible.

A lot of the sentiment of that post is true, and  I agree. Some of it is useless hyperbole. However, if it was written by a soldier, I can't fault him for bitching. I did it, most soldiers do it. A complaining soldier is a happy soldier, it is said. Gewehr 98 can attest to the bitching I did when I was in theater ;-)

My only regret is that I didn't deploy with my current battalion commander and SGM. Awesome

[Lee]

He sounds pretty tired.  Maybe he should be brought home to the US.  The war on terror (or at least the battle) could be won by nuking the Saudis....just don' hit the rigs.

[De Selby]

"....Westerners habitually and ignorantly misconceive the responses they are likely to encounter from the Arabs, unsuitably and even laughably projecting their own political and moral attitudes where these cannot apply.  Since the Suez campaign of 1956, there have been several Western expeditionary forces in the Middle East, for instance in the attempt to free American embassy personnel held hostage in Teheran in 1979, in Lebanon in October 1983, and in the Gulf in 1987.  Depending on the interests at stake, either such entry into the Middle East should be avoided altogether for the sake of the shame-based hostility it will trigger, or it must be undertaken with inflexible determination to  use whatever force is required for supreme arbitration." (emphasis mine)  Author David Pryce-Jones The Closed Circle, published 1989 

FYI, David Pryce-Jones used to identify Turkey as an Arab country in The Closed Circle.

It's hilarious to read a guy with no real language training, no experience, and no recognized expertise whatsoever pontificating on the "minds of the Arabs."  That's got to be more laughable than anything that could be going no between Arabs and Westerners.

How exactly is it possible to write an in depth study about "the Arab mind" when you can't even interview a single Arab in his native tongue?

[RevDisk]

I am tired of seeing Active Duty Army and Marine units being extended past their original redeployment dates, when there are National Guard Units that have yet to deploy to a combat zone in the last 40 years.

Apparently this gentleman is unaware that roughly 40 percent of the total troop strength is NG.  And from personal experience, I know of many NG soldiers who have pulled multiple tours and very few NG's that were not deployed to Iraq or activated to support deployments.  Ancidotal, sure, except I saw about a 50 to 1 ratio.  Marine and US Army Reserves have also been doing plenty of tours as well.  Only units I know of that didn't deploy to Iraq are mob support related units, don't know a single one that didn't deploy individuals.

Actually, orders were posted back in Oct to send 4,000 Pennsylvania National Guard soldiers to Iraq.  Primarily the 56th Stryker Brigade.  Unfortunately, they'll be commanded by LTC Ferraro whom I knew as a Major.  Gods help them.

So lets get it done.  Until the fight is won and there is no more fight left.

Sigh.  I saw a lot of this back in ye Old Days.  Folks still think if they win the Battle of This or Battle of That, the war is won.  There is no Berlin or Tokyo to take.  There IS no "get 'er done".  There is only better or worse.  Removing havens for insurgents, keeping foreign aggitators out, interdicting supplies to the insurgents, infiltrating insurgent groups and militas (we suck at this, BTW), improving the government structure, minimizing govt corruption, keeping the militias in order (disbanding them would be a bad idea, equal to disbanding the Iraqi Army), preventing ethnic cleansing.

It's possible to win, believe it or not.  Killing the bad guys is only one part, and not actually even the most important one. 

I am tired of Democrats saying they are patriotic and then insulting my commander in chief and the way he goes about his job.

And so far, all of our games have been away games, and I dont know about the ignorant, treasonous Democrats and the completely insane radical leftists and their thoughts on the matter, but I would like to keep our road game schedule.

Was this written by a soldier?  This guy is definitely in the wrong line of work.  DHS, specifically the TSA, is the place for him.   

Seriously, though.  Insulting democrats, liberals, moderates, or any folks who disagree with ya is a favorite hobby of soldiers.  So long as it's just venting.  Folks who automatically associate criticism and dissent with treason are however a bit worrisome.

I do however fully agree with him about the beloved US Army Officer Corps.  From my conversations with Vietnam and Korean vets, they've been going downhill for decades.  However it's been fairly recent the Warrant Office Corps has sold out to the Officer Corps and nosedived.  They used to command an insane amount of respect.  Some still do.  But it's less every year.

[Strings]

There were exactly two Warrants on board my ship. One was the Bo'sun, who had to be hauled kicking and screaming off the boat for retirement (I think he actually served on the Constitution). The other was our Marine Combat Cargo Officer. Black guy, VERY well (and softly) spoken, who had "command presence" in spades. He'd talk to those of us working for him, quietly let it be known that he'd like x to happen, and we'd move heaven and earth to make it so...

 If the Warrant program has sold out to the regular zeroes, gawd help our troops!

[Finch]

There was adequate time to debate and dissent before the war.

When everyone was being fed cherrypicked and edited shoddy intelligence to get us into it?

Colin Powell's little speech with the vial will haunt him the rest of his life.

Damn, I never thought my "take a shot whenever I agree with Manedwolf" drinking game would get me anywhere.

Bottoms Up!

[Finch]

You guys managed to miss the biggest one on that list,

I am tired of Rules of Engagement being made by JAG lawyers and not Combat Commanders.  We are not playing Hopscotch over here.  There is no 2nd place trophy either.  I think that if the enemy knew some rough treatment and some deprivation was at hand for them, instead of prayer rugs, special diets and free Korans; this might help get their terrorist minds right.

Yeah, I'm sure the guys who blow themselves up are really worried about what happens if they get caught.