Author Topic: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design  (Read 8564 times)

Perd Hapley

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Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« on: February 02, 2007, 08:09:51 AM »
This thread is for those who would rather talk about ID than religion and government.  (See my thread on theocrat/neocon hybrids.)
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zahc

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2007, 10:15:08 AM »
ID is not science.

There. That's my input.
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2007, 10:15:52 AM »
Oh, no, not that again...

A deity cannot simultaneously be GOOD and COMPETENT if the best he/she/it could produce was Homo Sapiens.

Cromlech

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2007, 10:40:52 AM »
I have no problem with Intelligent Design being taught in school. Just so long as it isn't taught in Science classes.

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The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own.

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Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science. These claims subordinate observed data to statements based on authority, revelation, or religious belief. Documentation offered in support of these claims is typically limited to the special publications of their advocates. These publications do not offer hypotheses subject to change in light of new data, new interpretations, or demonstration of error. This contrasts with science, where any hypothesis or theory always remains subject to the possibility of rejection or modification in the light of new knowledge.

 http://www.nap.edu/books/0309064066/html/25.html
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Tallpine

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2007, 10:51:06 AM »
I just can't accept the leaps of logic/faith that are required for either a pure evolutionary or creation based origin.

For example: an eye.  Sure, there are more primitive versions of eyes - but any lump of tissue is going to have to work pretty well as a vision device before it has any evolutionary advantage.  Or transitioning to/from a wing/flipper/arm - anything in between is a handicap rather than an advantage.

I recently read an article that claimed the above type objections were no longer an issue, but then presented no new evidence to explain how such things could come to be.  They basically concluded, "we are here, and all reasonable scientests accept evolution, so that settles the issue."

The fossil records show that new life forms "suddenly appeared" (in the words of a science journal article) at various times in (pre)history.  But no record of how these things came to be.


Not much to say about literal Creationists - they all start from a predetermined belief and proceed to "prove" their point by quoting scripture  rolleyes


If you mean by "Intelligent Design" that some unknown pre-existing force/being/etc directed the "evolutionary process", then that seems like a possible middle ground.  Or maybe aliens seeded the planet with various life forms over eons of time...?  grin   Actually, the latter makes almost as much sense as pure evolutionism or Creationism.  (yeah, I know - so where did the "aliens" come from? rolleyes )
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Sindawe

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2007, 12:00:04 PM »
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For example: an eye.  Sure, there are more primitive versions of eyes - but any lump of tissue is going to have to work pretty well as a vision device before it has any evolutionary advantage.  Or transitioning to/from a wing/flipper/arm - anything in between is a handicap rather than an advantage.
Hmmmm..Was it this article? http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0611/feature4/index.html  Print copy covers one possible sequence for the eye, from simple light sensative spot to the complex organ we all know and love.  Those "transition" eyes are still around and in good use by the creatures who sport them, so I doubt they are a handicap.  And mudskippers might risk to differ with you about the liability of their pectoral fins that resemble arms, but are not.  Well, they would if mudskippers could talk. grin

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Or maybe aliens seeded the planet with various life forms over eons of time...?
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richyoung

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2007, 12:19:13 PM »

Most obvious example: School board members, now thrown out, who tried to shove the "intelligent design" bit down everyone's throats in SCIENCE classrooms. It belongs in Religious Studies, NOT Science. Scientific theories are based on conclusions drawn from empirical evidence, with all effort dedicated to proving, DISproving, or expanding on them to make them into scientific fact.



You apparently have little to no knowledge of what "Intelligent design" theory actually is.


Generally, when someone says something like that, they provide an explanation. Smiley

Intelligent Design is the aplication of forensic science to the origins and variety of life on Earth.  A quick and dirty capsule of one aspect of it is to examine the rate at which mutations, genetic drift, viral gene damage, and other factors can cause changes in an organisms DNA over time.  Say, for example, ( and this is just an example), if the math comes out that it takes 65 billion years for a bacteria to evolve into a paramecium, yet the estimated age of the earth is much less than that, that is an implication that an outside intellligence may have been involved.  This, along with other concepts such as the complex and specific nature of such structures as eyes, the presence of "junk DNA" and vestigal organs are all analyzed much as a dead body would be examined by the authorities to determine if it died from 'natural causes", or murder, and from what it died & how long ago.  It is NOT creationism - it makes no attempt to name a Creator, be that the Christian or any other god.  It is a largely mathmatical analysis of the likelyhood that, given X billion years, life got from virus and bacteria to us in that span of time.

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And yes, I do. It's an unprovable tenet of FAITH relabled as science. It is not provable or disprovable by the scientific method, therefore it is not science.


Until we have observers capable of living millions and billions of years, evolution will remain as unprovable.

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It's Creationism with a new bottle and some new flavors added to bring it from the Scopes trial into the 21st century.


Neither myself nor the scientists that do the research say that.

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As I said, it belongs in the Religious Studies classroom.

I would submit that Evolution and Global Warming, with their accolytes, suppresion of disent,  and inquistions for the "unbelievers" has earned a place in Relgious Studies far more than I.D., and only slightly less than Wahabbi Islam.
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We don't need science being derailed by religion, or the rest of the world, focused on science, will pull happily ahead in all aspects of industry and innovation.

Mind explaining how evolution theory has any bearing at all on: aerospace, metallurgy, electronics, the automobile industry, energy production, chemistry, etc, etc....
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Manedwolf

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 12:25:28 PM »
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Until we have observers capable of living millions and billions of years, evolution will remain as unprovable.

Not quite true, as evolution in response to environmental stimuli and changing conditions can and has been proven in the lab with short-lifespan fast-generation organisms, from bacteria to fruit flies. There's also empirical evidence such as the moths that changed their camouflage colors during the Industrial Revolution to better blend in with soot-blackened environments. Those dark-colored moths were less likely to be seen and eaten, thus, survived longer to reproduce.

You're only talking about HUMAN and vertebrate evolution. On the latter, there is also a quite clear fossil record of the changes to species in response to changing environmental conditions, such as eohippi to the modern horse, or dire wolves to modern canines in all their environment-suited niche species. It can be observed in the very traits of such animals, from the large heat-radiator ears of desert animals to the tiny heat-conserving ears of arctic ones.

That argument's always been a bit of a red herring where the ID people try to disprove evolution. They also tend to ignore the australopithecine skeletons...especially the unsuccessful ones that died out entirely, like Australopithecus Robustus, which seems to have been a large vegetarian that couldn't compete.

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It is a largely mathmatical analysis of the likelyhood that, given X billion years, life got from virus and bacteria to us in that span of time.

No, it's more a fundamental failure on the part of its proponents to conceive of the vast spans of time involved in evolution of higher species. It's an intellectual inability to get one's mind around just how long a million years is, let alone billions.

And no, it doesn't "name" a creator, but it absolutely and completely implies that some intelligent being had to do it all, nudge nudge wink wink. Just TRY to suggest to an ID proponent that "Well, it could have been....alllliens...", and you'll be smacked down with their true colors of blatant religiousity.

Darwin, you see, started with observations of creatures, took notes and drawings, and, over time, formulated a theory as to HOW such things could have resulted. ID is the complete opposite, starting with a blind belief and trying to find pseudoscientific reasons that could possibly fit it.

It is the philosophical equivalent of Swift's Laputan builders, dangling an unsupported roof and trying to build a house to fit under it, whereas the theory of evolution started with the foundation, empirical evidence, and built upward from there.

glockfan.45

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 12:57:33 PM »
Having just retrived my 10' pole from behind the wood shed I am now ready to input on this topic.

Intelligent design is in my view the half assed approach at explaining the origins of life. Its kinda like the old sea maps that charted what was known and anything beyond that was simply marked "there be dragons here". Religious groups realized that all their age old stories regarding the human race being 6,000 years old, woman being created from a rib, etc wasnt going to hold up forever and now seek to infiltrate the public schools with this compromised version of their ideology. As far as I am concerned I send my children to school and they attend science classes to learn science. They are not there to learn speculative theorys that are a watered down version of what the religious right thinks they should learn.

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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2007, 01:00:14 PM »
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Until we have observers capable of living millions and billions of years, evolution will remain as unprovable.

Not quite true, as evolution in response to environmental stimuli and changing conditions can and has been proven in the lab with short-lifespan fast-generation organisms, from bacteria to fruit flies. There's also empirical evidence such as the moths that changed their camouflage colors during the Industrial Revolution to better blend in with soot-blackened environments. Those dark-colored moths were less likely to be seen and eaten, thus, survived longer to reproduce.

You're only talking about HUMAN and vertebrate evolution. On the latter, there is also a quite clear fossil record of the changes to species in response to changing environmental conditions, such as eohippi to the modern horse, or dire wolves to modern canines in all their environment-suited niche species. It can be observed in the very traits of such animals, from the large heat-radiator ears of desert animals to the tiny heat-conserving ears of arctic ones.

That argument's always been a bit of a red herring where the ID people try to disprove evolution. They also tend to ignore the australopithecine skeletons...especially the unsuccessful ones that died out entirely, like Australopithecus Robustus, which seems to have been a large vegetarian that couldn't compete.


And moths changing color but remaining moths, and wolves morphing into other canids, even a wide variety of apparant hominids explain macroevolution/transspeciation exactly how?

Looks like species will adapt over time to their environment, or not and will die out, but that doesn't explain how we got from paramecia to moths or amphibians or canids or hominids in any real way.  That's the weakness in evolutionary theory, you can't infer transspeciation from intra-genus or species environmental modification.  That breakfast don't prove that lunch.
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2007, 01:23:29 PM »
The mathematical calculation is a flawed argument because it is based on a wrong premise - it tacitly assumes that mutation rates are constant. In fact, there is plenty of evidence, even in the modern world, e.g. antibiotic resistances, that show that mutation rates widely vary. Further, there are biochemical mechanisms that greatly increase the mutation rates when the organism is under increased environmental pressure. Experimental evidence is mostly limited to bacterial organisms for practical (and legal!!) reasons, but the fundamental concepts hold because even something as evolved as we are still use some of the basic biochemical apparatus of bacteria.

Also, for those that still believe evolution has not been demonstrated in modern times, just dig around a bit and you will find relevant scientific papers. Part of the problem is the conservatism of many biologists themselves, who blindly parrot the dogma they learnt in highschool 50 years ago that mutation is too slow to allow modern observation of evolution. To get references even more easily, just check out the work of Bob Austin at Princeton - take a few of his more recent papers on bacteria and pull out the references he quotes.

Transitional/vestigial organs may or may not be beneficial. Our appendix is a pain in the gut, and so are our wisdom teeth. Nothing "intelligent" about them. But, believe it or not, our skull is not completely opaque and certain parts of the brain (which are not our eyes) are light-sensitive. In fact sunstroke and sleepiness under a lot of sun are based partly on that fact. The sleepiness is your body telling you to get out of the sun before you dehydrate or get sunburn. If you are stubborn and persist, you get sunstroke. Also, frogs make excellent use of what used to be flippers, both for walking/jumping and for swimming. Penguins are not too shabby with their flippers either. Turtles will be surprised to know that their transitional walking flippers (which have bone structure similar to feet) are an impediment.

Finally, for those who say life just springs out of nowhere and suddenly. Please consider what timescales you really are talking about. Even the famous "extinction" K-T boundary encompasses millions of years. Even for a long-lived organism as ours, that is easily HALF A MILLION GENERATIONS!!

Ron

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2007, 02:41:19 PM »
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Finally, for those who say life just springs out of nowhere and suddenly
In the materialists world view at some point in time there was no life and then there was.

Time is the "magic" in your religion. If it doesn't make sense just ascribe some long eon of time and all the details work themselves out, like magic!

Chaos plus time does not equal order.

Tallpine

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2007, 03:09:56 PM »
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Finally, for those who say life just springs out of nowhere and suddenly.

It was actually a science journal that said that  laugh
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

zahc

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2007, 03:38:07 PM »
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Time is the "magic" in your religion. If it doesn't make sense just ascribe some long eon of time and all the details work themselves out, like magic!

So true, evolutionary explanations to the origin or life are almost humorous.
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Strings

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2007, 03:39:45 PM »
The best arguement against Intelligent[i/] Design is humanity itself: you can't argue that we were crated by anything intelligent.

 Now, if you'ld like to discuss Fool Designed, we can continue the discussion.






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Twycross

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2007, 03:42:27 PM »
Chaos plus time does not equal order.

+1. At some point, there was no life. We have life now, so at some point it appeared. Macroevolution (not to be confused with the entirely different microevolution) is the last bastion of spontaneous generation, and remains firmly grounded in the realm of "what if?," given that it by definition cannot be tested for and runs against all observable evidence on the subject of life-generation.

When modern science creates an electric motor capable of assembling itself from the inside out, reaching http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellum"" target="_blank">17,000 rpm, and then reversing direction in a quarter of a turn, gimme a call.

wacki

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2007, 05:00:06 PM »
I work in the biotech field.  I've created viruses from scratch and bacteria from mostly scratch.  I've watched species of bacteria evolve in a matter of days with the application of a UV lamp and some chemicals. The mayo clinic is growing pigs with human blood/organs for researching diseases.  If evolution did not occur in real life it would be impossible to do what I do for a living.  For those of us in the field evolution is so obvious it's very difficult to take skeptics seriously.

For all those that think the planet is 6K years old, read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

If a priest can understand science, why can't the new breed of devout Christians?




Ron

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2007, 05:18:39 PM »
So you have performed an exercise and observed evolution in the laboratory?

You have been able to repeat this exercise and get the same results?

So you have proven the Theory of Evolution with your experiments?

What did your bacteria evolve in to?

 

 

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2007, 05:22:51 PM »
The man-pig, the one with the organs.

It just took a little UV light...
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Sindawe

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2007, 05:43:49 PM »
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The man-pig, the one with the organs.
Best keep that thing away from bears.  grin

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I've created viruses from scratch and bacteria from mostly scratch.

Can you elaborate on that?  Are you creating a completely new, novel virus or recreating an already existent strain from amino and nucleic acids?  Same for the bacteria, and is it a gram + or gram - organism?

The pigs?  Thats not evolution, that engineering akin two what we were doing in the 1990s with E. coli, some human genome data and a commercially available plasmid.

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If a priest can understand science, why can't the new breed of devout Christians?


Because in my view understanding science involves the ability to examine long held beliefs about life and the world, then chuck them in the garbage should those beliefs prove to be false.  Note that this ability is also lacking in many of those who would call themselves scientists.
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2007, 06:15:22 PM »
Quote from: Sindawe
Because in my view understanding science involves the ability to examine long held beliefs about life and the world, then chuck them in the garbage should those beliefs prove to be false. 

Precisely. As science and technology march forward, the phenomenological component in religious texts becomes progressively unsustainable. ID is just one of the many ways the essentially unswayable attempt to reconcile their religious believes with evidence that undermines them.

Ron

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2007, 06:27:30 PM »
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Precisely. As science and technology march forward, the phenomenological component in religious texts becomes progressively unsustainable. ID is just one of the many ways the essentially unswayable attempt to reconcile their religious believes with evidence that undermines them

It's so cute when you use big words grin

You confuse evidence with consensus.

My issue with modern science is the fact that they are locked into a naturalistic box.

They are forced to make their observations fit their presupposition that all things occurred via natural forces.

This leaves them with their own bunch of absurdities that they can't explain.

Something coming from nothing, chaos becoming order, inanimate becoming animate not to mention all the "logical conclusions" that can be drawn from believing in a purely materialistic reality as it relates to ethics.



 

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2007, 06:35:44 PM »
Quote from: Sindawe
Because in my view understanding science involves the ability to examine long held beliefs about life and the world, then chuck them in the garbage should those beliefs prove to be false. 

Precisely. As science and technology march forward, the phenomenological component in religious texts becomes progressively unsustainable. ID is just one of the many ways the essentially unswayable attempt to reconcile their religious believes with evidence that undermines them.

Not everyone who is a Christian and has a problem with evolution (unrelated to their faith in my case) believes the Bible is to be taken literally. 

To believe all Christians are Sola Scriptura literalists or hold to a 6,000 yr. old earth is to ignore most modern biblical scholarship and mainstream Christian thought.

To actually accuse Christians who happen to disagree with you on evolution of such Biblical beliefs is both arrogant and ignorant.
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Ron

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2007, 06:42:29 PM »
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Not everyone who is a Christian and has a problem with evolution (unrelated to their faith in my case) believes the Bible is to be taken literally.

To believe all Christians are Sola Scriptura literalists is to ignore most modern biblical scholarship. To actually accuse folks who disagree with you of such a belief is both arrogant and ignorant.

It is diversionary tactic to change the focus of the debate. I always ignore the attacks on ID and/or Biblical creationists.

From a purely scientific view it doesn't have to be one or the other, creation or evolution.

The slavish attempt to make all the facts fit their world view close their minds to any other explanation whether it is ID or some other theory.

It allows them to talk about Jimmy Swaggert sleeping with whores instead of the gaping holes in their theories.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Spill-over thread on Intelligent Design
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2007, 06:46:56 PM »
Quote from: Ron
You confuse evidence with consensus.

Please offer your evidence against current scientific views.

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My issue with modern science is the fact that they are locked into a naturalistic box. They are forced to make their observations fit their presupposition that all things occurred via natural forces.

If you believe that there is something beyond nature and natural laws, please offer respective evidence. Something measurable, reproducible, tangible.

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Something coming from nothing,

Where exactly is something from nothing? Stars "burn" hydrogen to produce heavier elements. Atoms of chemical elements combine into molecules. Molecules form cells. Cells form colonies and multicellular organisms.  There is no rabbit from the hat.

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chaos becoming order,

First off, what do you mean by chaos? Do you mean "disorder"? From a modern scientific perspective, the two are rather different. Mathematical "chaos" is certainly not disorder. Also, disorder of elements does not mean disorder of natural laws. We have not observed changes in the natural laws. Substances are reorganized based on them.

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inanimate becoming animate

That depends on what you mean by "animate", does it not? Is a cell animate? How about its constituent molecules? If they function along natural laws, primarily physical and chemical ones, are individual molecules "animate"? If each is not animate, why should we believe that their sum is animate? Your very terminology is already loaded.

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not to mention all the "logical conclusions" that can be drawn from believing in a purely materialistic reality as it relates to ethics.

Now we get to the crux of it. That is where it really hurts, doesn't it? That is what religious people cannot accept - the "ethical" implications of a mechanistic universe. But, that is their internal ethical problem. Nature cares not for human ethics. It just is.

People can agree upon common ethics without it being rooted in the nature of the universe, just in the same way as reasonable people treat one another well without the need of a policeman to keep them straight. Why does ethics have to be based on the physical universe? So that there is a Uberpoliceman that doles out "justice" in life and afterlife? Religious people should ask themselves why they have that need. Maybe they will find things about themselves they will not like. Hehe.



 
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