Author Topic: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do... (Read 2733 times)

K Frame · « **on:** March 10, 2019, 09:56:33 AM »

A few years ago I bought a used S&W 410 in .40 S&W. Price was right, $300, and it was in really good condition.

So far I've shot mostly 165-gr. practice ammo through it, and it has printed, consistently, about 1.5 to 2 inches low for me... and FAR lower with the first DA shot (but that's a training thing).

Last night Mtnbkr and I went to the range. I took some 165 Speer (I think) HP, some 180 gr. Winchester Ranger, and I bought a box of American Eagle 180 gr. practice ammo.

Every one of them hit 1.5 to 2 inches low.

Mtnbkr tried it with one of his targets, and he punched the center on successive shots.

I tried it with one of his targets (different aiming picture), and all of my shots were 1.5 to 2 inches low.

So, it's me, and it's not the gun.

I like this thing, it fits my hand fairly well, and the trigger, especially single action, is rather nice. I had plans of making it a winter carry gun, and it fed everything I ran though it last night without a bobble.

So...

Do I run it toward trade on something else?

Do I see if I can find a higher rear sight? This was a value line gun and there's not a lot of aftermarket stuff out there for it.

Do I make it my nightstand gun and not worry about the bullet impact because it's only a bit low, at defensive distances it won't really matter, and it functions and groups well...

WLJ · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2019, 10:02:48 AM »

Consistently shooting low at the 6 o'clock position is sometimes cause by tightening your grip as you're pulling the trigger.
Do you shoot low with other handguns? If not the shape of the grip could be a factor in this. Everyone's hands are shaped a little different and not all gun grips fit every hand properly.

Edit: auto correct got me again

WLJ · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2019, 10:05:44 AM »

Also something I thought of after I typed the above is how are you using the sights? Some sights require you to cover the target with the front sight post while others require the front sight post to be held directly under the target. Maybe he's sighting the former way and you the latter.

K Frame · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2019, 10:05:59 AM »

No, this is the first handgun that I've ever had this problem with. I don't have this issue with any of my other fixed sight semis or revolvers.

These are 3-dot sights, standard S&W, and I'm using them the same way that I've used every other S&W sight on every other S&W handgun I've ever shot... Ice Cream Cone sight picture.

T.O.M. · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2019, 10:59:43 AM »

Is the front sight cast with the frame, pinned, or dovetailed? I'm thinking a shorter front sight would be the easiest fix. I bet since it's a budget version of the Gen 3 Smith autos, you can find sights still.

Fly320s · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2019, 11:20:36 AM »

Sounds like the gun shoots to point of aim, so why do you want to change the sights? There may come a day when you're shooting too high with the new sights.

You can fix your shooting with just a few minutes of work.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2019, 11:28:07 AM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 10, 2019, 10:05:59 AM

These are 3-dot sights, standard S&W, and I'm using them the same way that I've used every other S&W sight on every other S&W handgun I've ever shot... Ice Cream Cone sight picture.

Granted, I'm only 75 years old and I've only been shooting for a little over 65 years ... I have never encountered the term "Ice Cream Cone" sight picture. What is that?

And what did Mtnbkr use as his sight picture -- center hold, 6:00 o'clock hold, or

BlueStarLizzard · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2019, 11:49:21 AM »

Quote from: Fly320s on March 10, 2019, 11:20:36 AM

Sounds like the gun shoots to point of aim, so why do you want to change the sights? There may come a day when you're shooting too high with the new sights.

You can fix your shooting with just a few minutes of work.

yeah, but if he "corrects" his grip on this, it might throw him on his other guns which he says he doesn't have this issue with.

If it was a range toy, I'd say keep it if you like it and play with it, but if you want it for a working gun and you're doing drills and whatnot...

Fly320s · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2019, 12:00:23 PM »

Quote from: Hawkmoon on March 10, 2019, 11:28:07 AM

And what did Mtnbkr use as his sight picture -- center hold, 6:00 o'clock hold, or

Same as 6 o'clock hold. The bullet hole would be "sitting" on top of the front sight the same way ice cream sits on top of the cone.

Fly320s · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2019, 12:05:06 PM »

Quote from: bluestarlizzard on March 10, 2019, 11:49:21 AM

yeah, but if he "corrects" his grip on this, it might throw him on his other guns which he says he doesn't have this issue with.

If it was a range toy, I'd say keep it if you like it and play with it, but if you want it for a working gun and you're doing drills and whatnot...

How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes. As long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun, the bullet will hit the target (assuming of course that the sights are regulated correctly). A good hold or grip simply allows the shooter to shoot quicker or with better control of the gun or more comfortably.

I don't think Mike needs to change his grip. I think he needs to work on not moving the gun while pulling the trigger. Again, that assumes the sights are correct and that Mtnbkr was using the same sight picture as Mike.

WLJ · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2019, 12:15:14 PM »

Quote from: Fly320s on March 10, 2019, 12:05:06 PM

How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes. As long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun, the bullet will hit the target (assuming of course that the sights are regulated correctly). A good hold or grip simply allows the shooter to shoot quicker or with better control of the gun or more comfortably.

How a person holds a gun can very well have an effect, an improper grip can cause the gun to shift while the trigger is being pulled. Many people will tighten their grip during the trigger pull which can cause low 6 o'clock impacts. Seen it many times.

Ben · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2019, 12:43:29 PM »

Quote from: Fly320s on March 10, 2019, 12:05:06 PM

How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes. As long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun, the bullet will hit the target (assuming of course that the sights are regulated correctly). A good hold or grip simply allows the shooter to shoot quicker or with better control of the gun or more comfortably.

I don't think Mike needs to change his grip. I think he needs to work on not moving the gun while pulling the trigger. Again, that assumes the sights are correct and that Mtnbkr was using the same sight picture as Mike.

From the OP, he appears to be precise, just not accurate. I'm wondering if it's not his grip, but THE grips? Just because grips feel ergonomic and comfortable doesn't mean they'll work well for a particular hand shape. I'm wondering if the grip style and his hand shape are causing some slight "slippage" every time Mike puts pressure on the trigger?

BlueStarLizzard · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2019, 01:30:37 PM »

Quote from: Fly320s on March 10, 2019, 12:05:06 PM

How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes. As long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun, the bullet will hit the target (assuming of course that the sights are regulated correctly). A good hold or grip simply allows the shooter to shoot quicker or with better control of the gun or more comfortably.

I don't think Mike needs to change his grip. I think he needs to work on not moving the gun while pulling the trigger. Again, that assumes the sights are correct and that Mtnbkr was using the same sight picture as Mike.

I'm going to disagree with you here. The shape of the gun always changes a grip. You're hand just does not go around a 1911 the same as it goes around a Glock. While the basics and the physics are the same, it's an adjustment for every gun.

Maybe this is more obvious to me since I have odd hands (and small hands) but I have to fiddle my grip for every new gun I shoot to find what works with that specific grip shape and recoil.

K Frame · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2019, 03:32:34 PM »

"How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes."

I'm not sure why you think that, but it is absolutely 100% wrong.

"Sounds like the gun shoots to point of aim, so why do you want to change the sights? There may come a day when you're shooting too high with the new sights."

Let me guess... you'd NEVER consider touching the adjustments on a scope or adjustable iron sights because "there may come a day when you're [insert X here]."

I am actually leaning toward it being the grips on this particular gun. They're the straight back strap (which I generally prefer). I'm thinking of trying a Hogue Handall wrap around on it just to see if there's any difference.

Realistically, this is NOT a problem. 2 inches low at defensive ranges is nothing. It just annoys me.

I'm thinking about using it as my nightstand gun. I have a 3" Chief's Special .38 in there right now.

HankB · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2019, 04:31:22 PM »

IF you're getting GOOD groups, adjust the sight, not your grip. Grip problems will cause poor - and inconsistent! - groups.

It's not unusual for good shots to print good groups to different points of impact with the same gun - eyes and hands vary. I remember reading that Jeff Cooper and Ray Chapman shot both hardball and target loads to different points of impact, even though each one grouped well.

230RN · « **Reply #15 on:** March 10, 2019, 05:34:46 PM »

You can lower the target 2 1/2 inches on the target stands.

But seriously, in general, at least in revolvers, heavier bullets print higher at close ranges than lighter bullets. You might try the 200 grain bullets in the auto anyhow.

The reason?

Handguns (and indeed all guns) recoil slightly before the bullet leaves the barrel. Since handguns are held in a squishy plastic medium, this is why they are in fact sensitive to how they're held and the mass of the bullet. (They're also sensitive to torque recoil (left versus right-hand rifling) but this is a pretty minor effect.)

I get tired of arguing this point, so in the last fifteen years, I've been just citing the science and letting it go at that:

Hatcher's Notebook "The theory of recoil," Chapter XII, pp 293 ff, esp p295ff.

Terry, 230RN

Fly320s · « **Reply #16 on:** March 10, 2019, 08:06:46 PM »

Hatcher didn't have high-speed video cameras.

The bullet is gone before the barrel moves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3-khKHALaw

K Frame · « **Reply #17 on:** March 10, 2019, 08:19:02 PM »

The sights are fixed.

Can't find 200 gr bullets but not I said that there was no difference between 165s and 180d.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

French G. · « **Reply #18 on:** March 10, 2019, 08:21:15 PM »

Quote from: Fly320s on March 10, 2019, 08:06:46 PM

Hatcher didn't have high-speed video cameras.

The bullet is gone before the barrel moves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3-khKHALaw

Before the barrel unlocks sure. But the gun moves. Otherwise why does a 147 9mm always hit much higher than a 115 at 25 yards? Longer dwell time in the barrel.

This might be a sight picture issue, I think the Glock picture with factory sights has the bullet hit where the front sight dot is. Drives me nuts, I like six o clock hold if I am going to do dumb stuff like look at my sights. I also had a few times in shooting where I would get some sort of pre ignition push. Not really flinching, but tightening the lower fingers a little just as the shot broke. And then there are times I just had a horrible flinch.

Fly320s · « **Reply #19 on:** March 10, 2019, 08:36:21 PM »

Quote from: French G. on March 10, 2019, 08:21:15 PM

Before the barrel unlocks sure. But the gun moves. Otherwise why does a 147 9mm always hit much higher than a 115 at 25 yards? Longer dwell time in the barrel.

Mike's S&W 410 is a semi-auto, right? The barrel doesn't move up until the bullet is gone. Not even a little bit, according to the videos.

Fly320s · « **Reply #20 on:** March 10, 2019, 09:20:53 PM »

As to grip affecting bullet impact point, I said:

"How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes."

Others responded with:

Quote

How a person holds a gun can very well have an effect, an improper grip can cause the gun to shift while the trigger is being pulled. Many people will tighten their grip during the trigger pull which can cause low 6 o'clock impacts. Seen it many times.

Quote

I'm going to disagree with you here. The shape of the gun always changes a grip.

Quote

'm not sure why you think that, but it is absolutely 100% wrong.

Apparently you all stopped reading there. My next sentence was this:

Quote

As long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun, the bullet will hit the target (assuming of course that the sights are regulated correctly).

The above quote is why trick shooters are successful. Those guys and gals that hold the gun upside down and shoot it with their pinky finger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwVK_FxGZk), or hold it over their shoulder and use a mirror (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFG3hWdRmvU) still correctly align the sights on target and keep the sights on target while they pull the trigger. Their grip on the gun is non-standard and certainly not ideal for quick, follow-up shots, or even solid recoil control, but they get the hits. And it is all because of sight alignment and sight picture.

It doesn't matter how hard you slap the trigger or how hard you squeeze the gun or anything else so long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun. Everything that happens after that does not affect shot placement. For example, I have personally watched John "Shrek" McPhee use a ratchet to fire a pistol my friend was holding. John smacked the crap out of that ratchet, and the pistol moved way off target, but the bullets were already out of the barrel making a nice group on the paper at POA. Here is his breakdown of what goes wrong most of the time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyn87AMVXO4

You've all heard it before. Sight alignment. Sight picture. Front sight focus. It isn't rocket science. Align the sights on target and keep them there until the bullet leaves the barrel.

All the proper grip talk and proper trigger squeeze talk and proper stance talk is solely to get ready for the next shot. You can do the upside down pinky shot all day; it will just be slower than the normal way. For those of you who want proof, I have a drill for you. Next time you go to the range, shoot your pistol using only two fingers. The thumb around the backstrap and your index finger on the trigger. Hold the gun loosely, just tight enough so you don't drop it. Give all of your concentration on aligning the sights correctly and keeping them on target while you squeeze the trigger. Front sight focus, sight alignment, surprise break. Do that 5 times. If you give it an honest try, you'll have a nice group at POA.

Have you ever noticed that you sometimes shoot better with weak-hand only? That is because it is uncomfortable for you so you are concentrating harder on the front sight. The same idea applies in this drill.

Mike said that Mtnbkr got the gun to shoot POI to POA. So, either Mike and Mtnbkr are aligning the sights differently or Mike is not as good a shooter as Mtnbkr. In either case, as Mike said:

Quote

So, it's me, and it's not the gun.

So, Mike, if you think the problem is with your shooting ability, why are you wanting to change the gun? If the gun is capable of shooting POI to POA, then I think you should focus on your abilities first. I think the best idea is for you to do some dry fire practice, some one-hole drills, and maybe get some coaching, to see if you can correct whatever it is you are doing wrong. And if that works on this pistol, it will improve your shooting on all of your guns, whereas changing sights will only work on one gun.

If you get really ambitious, haul yourself up here to NH. I'll take you to the range and spend all day with you until you're convinced that the sights on your 410 are fine as they are.

**Disclaimer: it is possible that the sights on Mike's 410 are not regulated correctly, meaning they don't shoot POA to POI. It is rare in modern pistols, but it does happen.

lee n. field · « **Reply #21 on:** March 10, 2019, 09:51:43 PM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 10, 2019, 09:56:33 AM

A few years ago I bought a used S&W 410 in .40 S&W. Price was right, $300, and it was in really good condition.

Gun shoots fine for other guy. It's you. But you shoot other guns fine.

Live with it, or get it fitted with a front or rear sight that lets you shoot to point of aim. Who does work on these? I'm seeing some sight vendors that have 3rd gen S&W sights (Novak, Trijicon).

Do the latest trendy thing, and mill for a slide mount red dot?

Doggy Daddy · « **Reply #22 on:** March 10, 2019, 09:53:30 PM »

Slight thread drift, but we are talking about grip, right?

https://www.facebook.com/TheWebmThread/videos/2040689582886541/?t=1

WLJ · « **Reply #23 on:** March 10, 2019, 10:00:58 PM »

Quote from: Doggy Daddy on March 10, 2019, 09:53:30 PM

Slight thread drift, but we are talking about grip, right?

https://www.facebook.com/TheWebmThread/videos/2040689582886541/?t=1

That's some fabulous shifting

Doggy Daddy · « **Reply #24 on:** March 10, 2019, 10:13:29 PM »

Quote from: WLJ on March 10, 2019, 10:00:58 PM

That's some fabulous shifting

Jealous?

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Author Topic: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do... (Read 2733 times)