Air travel

[Hawkmoon]

Is everyone rushing out to reserve their seats on 737 Max flights?

[RocketMan]

I will be flying American late next month from CLT to PDX, and they operate 23 737 Max jets if I am not mistaken.  Not going to worry about which kind of aircraft takes me to PDX and back.

[Andiron]

The 2 incidents I'm aware of were Ethiopian and Lion (of Indonesia?). 

I'm willing to give Boeing the benefit of the doubt when the complainant carriers are 3rd world.  I'm told it takes more than just topping off the fuel tanks to keep the things flying.  It's not impossible that there's a catastrophic issue with that aircraft,  I just doubt it.

[Scout26]

I will be flying American late next month from CLT to PDX, and they operate 23 737 Max jets if I am not mistaken.  Not going to worry about which kind of aircraft takes me to PDX and back.

I call dibs on all your stuff...

[Ben]

If Boeing weren't so pricey per share, I'd buy a few hundred shares of it right now.

I only caught a snippet on the teevee news so may have misheard, but it sounds like there might be some pilot error in the Ethiopian crash.

[Perd Hapley]

Is anyone else watching Widow, on Prime?

[BobR]

I flew a 737 Max from Phoenix to Spokane the other day, I don't think my wife or the people in the row in front of us really appreciated my knowledge of flying, the 737 platform and plane crashes in general as we were waiting for the pushback. :)


bob

[MillCreek]

Suffice it to say that there is a metric ton of attention being paid to this here in Boeing country.  Lots of stories in the print and electronic media.

[Hawkmoon]

Suffice it to say that there is a metric ton of attention being paid to this here in Boeing country.  Lots of stories in the print and electronic media.

Anything substantive, or all speculation?

[Fly320s]

If Boeing weren't so pricey per share, I'd buy a few hundred shares of it right now.

You'll get your chance.  I bet the price will drop another 10-15% just from fear and speculation.  If there is a fault in the plane, then Boeing won't be able to give away their shares.

https://articles.marketrealist.com/2019/03/boeing-plunged-again-as-countries-keep-grounding-its-737-max-jets/?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=feed&yptr=yahoo

[MillCreek]

Anything substantive, or all speculation?

Speculation right now about the flight control software as opposed to a mechanical fault.

[Fly320s]

Speculation right now about the flight control software as opposed to a mechanical fault.

Based on some facts.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2018-11-13/boeing-guidance-737-max-stall-protection-system-under-fire

[MillCreek]

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-releases-statements?item=130402

Boeing now says the FAA will issue an Airworthiness Directive in April mandating a change to the flight control software.

[Ben]

Based on some facts.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2018-11-13/boeing-guidance-737-max-stall-protection-system-under-fire

I bet that's why yesterday I was hearing initial reports of pilot error. They had mentioned at least one of the Ethiopian pilots was a low hours guy, so maybe they were mixing up lack of training with lack of notification of stuff they need to be trained on.

Boeing failed to communicate with 737 Max operators new procedures for addressing cases in which the airplane’s automatic stall prevention system commands the nose of the airplane downward, potentially resulting the kind of steep dive that appears to have led to the fatal crash of Lion Air Flight 610, according to pilot union officials quoted by the Wall Street Journal.

[Hawkmoon]

I bet that's why yesterday I was hearing initial reports of pilot error. They had mentioned at least one of the Ethiopian pilots was a low hours guy, so maybe they were mixing up lack of training with lack of notification of stuff they need to be trained on.

Boeing supposedly notified all operators of the 737 Max about the MCAS system following the Lion Air crash, and Ethiopian Airlines says their pilots received the notification. The question then becomes: If they received it, did they understand it?

If I remember correctly, the pilot had 8,000 hours experience, but I don't recall if the article I read indicated if that was 8,000 hours in a 737, or 8,000 hours total. The co-pilot had 200 hours, which seems VERY little for a commercial airline pilot. I don't think any American airline would hire a pilot with such low hours. For example, Delta requires a minimum of 1,500 hours experience, and most of their hires have more than that.

http://www.deltajobs.net/pilot_qualifications.htm

[Fly320s]

Boeing supposedly notified all operators of the 737 Max about the MCAS system following the Lion Air crash, and Ethiopian Airlines says their pilots received the notification. The question then becomes: If they received it, did they understand it?

If I remember correctly, the pilot had 8,000 hours experience, but I don't recall if the article I read indicated if that was 8,000 hours in a 737, or 8,000 hours total. The co-pilot had 200 hours, which seems VERY little for a commercial airline pilot. I don't think any American airline would hire a pilot with such low hours. For example, Delta requires a minimum of 1,500 hours experience, and most of their hires have more than that.

http://www.deltajobs.net/pilot_qualifications.htm

1,500 hours and an ATP is required now by the FAA to fly for part 121 airlines.  That is part of the reason for the pilot shortage.

[Hawkmoon]

It's beginning to appear that the FAA may be taking a head-in-the-sand attitude on this:

https://www.philly.com/business/boeing-max-pilots-complained-suspected-safety-flaw-20190312.html

Records show a captain who flies the Max 8 complained in November that it was “unconscionable” that the company and federal authorities allowed pilots to fly the planes without adequate training or fully disclosing information about how its systems differed.

A federal audit in 2014 said the FAA does not collect and analyze its voluntary disclosure reporting in a way that would effectively identify national safety risks.

The fifth complaint from the captain who called into question the 737 Max 8’s flight manual ended: “The fact that this airplane requires such jury-rigging to fly is a red flag. Now we know the systems employed are error-prone — even if the pilots aren’t sure what those systems are, what redundancies are in place and failure modes. I am left to wonder: what else don’t I know?”

[HankB]

Saw part of some comments by a guy on TV claiming that there weren't properly trained pilots flying the aircraft, but trained systems operators. From the snippet I saw, the guy seemed to think a lack of piloting ability was to blame in aircraft that were excessively automated.

Not being a pilot myself and having only seen part of the interview it sounds plausible on the surface, but I can't judge whether or not the guy was credible.

[Fly320s]

Saw part of some comments by a guy on TV claiming that there weren't properly trained pilots flying the aircraft, but trained systems operators. From the snippet I saw, the guy seemed to think a lack of piloting ability was to blame in aircraft that were excessively automated.

Not being a pilot myself and having only seen part of the interview it sounds plausible on the surface, but I can't judge whether or not the guy was credible.

I didn't see that video, but I tend to agree with that guy.  We rely more and more on the aircraft systems to protect us and less on actual flying skills.

During my last recurrent training in January, we spent about 90 minutes doing stalls, stall recovery without using power, high altitude stall recovery, and unusual attitude upset recovery training.  It used to be that the mindset was to use engine thrust to power out of the stall,  but the FAA has finally realized that doesn't always work.

This new attitude toward stall recovery and the new flight time requirments to get hired are both results of the Colgan Air 3407 crash 10 years ago.  And from the Air France crash into the Atlantic.

[HeroHog]

Interesting take on the issue by AvE: Why are Boeing 737s CRASHING? | In layman's terms
https://youtu.be/1XCU__OEftU

[MillCreek]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/13/boeing-shares-fall-after-report-says-us-expected-to-ground-737-max-fleet.html

The President grounds all 737 Max aircraft in the US.

[BobR]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/13/boeing-shares-fall-after-report-says-us-expected-to-ground-737-max-fleet.html

The President grounds all 737 Max aircraft in the US.

Glad I am not flying Southwest today....


bob

[Hawkmoon]

Based on new "physical evidence" recovered at the crash scene.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47562727

Considering that the plane basically nosedived and augered in perpendicular to the ground, pulverizing everything, the only physical evidence I can imagine that would have yielded any information at all would be the black boxes.

[BobR]

"new information and physical evidence that we've received from the site and from other locations and through a couple of other complaints".

Maybe the information they had from US pilots that they also had issues but were able to overcome the issue and continue the flight as intended. Possibly US aircrews are trained a little better or are more able to rationalize on the fly? We were always taught that if you did something and it upset the apple cart undo what you just did to begin with. Just a thought.

bob

[Fly320s]

Glad I am not flying Southwest today....


bob

Southwest has a large fleet.  The Max is a small number of that.  They will be fine.  Southwest is probably the most nimble airline around.