Should atheists, agnostics, etc. be allowed to have children?

[Mabs2]

You guys are going about it all wrong.
It's not atheists that shouldn't have children, nor Christians, or Jews, or any other religion or race.
It's none of us!
The world would be SO much more peaceful without us humans spreading violence, hate and destruction about.
(Except the animals killing each other, that'd still be pretty violent)
(And the plants killing animals, that's pretty nasty.)
(And also the plants killing other plants.)
(And the environment killing those plants...)

[RevDisk]

This also includes people who are not members of your particular religous sect.

No religious or atheist zealot has enough arms or self-righteous zeal, on this side or the Beyond, to stop me from living my life.  At best, they can kill me.  Freedom is not lost by others taking it from you.  Freedom is lost by you giving it up. 

Such lunatics have tried already.  I hope no others will be so stupid.  I doubt it.  I don't own weapons in fear of mugging or home invasion.  I own weapons because I've seen religious lunatics murder people by the hundreds and bury them in unmarked mass graves. 

Molon labe. 

[Perd Hapley]

Ah, crap!  And we've spent so much TIME preparing to crack down on you pagan.

[Strings]

fistful: seriously, there are many pagans that actually HAVE dealt with certain "Christins" that express the desire to opress us. That's what results in some of the posts you've seen here...

 Me? Last time I had the offer to become firewood, I offered to use the antagonists as targets...

[Perd Hapley]

I know, HR, I've heard that from two or three of you.  I don't know if y'all live in Utah, or what.  I just can't recall meeting any Christians like that.  Of course, there's got to be a few more out there like Phelps. 

[RevDisk]

Ah, crap!  And we've spent so much TIME preparing to crack down on you pagan.

Na.  Mostly twits so stupid you'd think they forget to breathe.   

Seriously, though.  Yes, there are some Christians that believe in using physical violence solely based on religious beliefs.  Others racial.  Others, who knows, maybe just the voices in their head.  It's not the majority, nowhere close.  But it's enough to make folks edgy at times.  Rightly so. 

Many (most?) religions claim to be based on peaceful purposes.  A glance at any history shows otherwise.  Every major religion has at some point been oppressive, and occasionally murderous.  It's human nature.  Nature, red in tooth and claw. 

If you honestly believe no member of your religion is a bad egg, I admire your innocence or naivety. 

[CAnnoneer]

You can breed them, so long as I mold them.

[tyme]

Rabbi,
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=die+in+a+fire

[Sindawe]

Rabbi,
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=die+in+a+fire

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Gots to write that one down.

[glockfan.45]

What a ridiculous question, a persons religious convictions have no bearing on their right to reproduce. Wow just wow...........when you think youve seen it all  .

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi,
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=die+in+a+fire

Tsk tsk

[Perd Hapley]

If you honestly believe no member of your religion is a bad egg, I admire your innocence or naivety. 

Did I give that impression?  I've met some bad eggs in my religion, just not any that would make me want to stock up on weapons, were I a pagan.  I'm not calling you guys liars, but it's hard to overcome the dissonance between your stories and what I know about American Christians.  I've met a lot of Ned Flanders types and never anyone as bad as Fred Phelps.  Even his group doesn't seem to be violent; just vile. 

[Perd Hapley]

What a ridiculous question, a persons religious convictions have no bearing on their right to reproduce. Wow just wow...........when you think youve seen it all  .

Gullible.

[valencia]

This should be fun.  Who wants popcorn? 

So as I understand your stated position Rabbi, atheists/agnostics can't have kids, but Pagans, Hindus, etc. can?

extra butter please!!!


should they be allowed?!? pfft! what kind of question is that?

[Perd Hapley]

Maybe you two thought Bogie was some kind of fundamentalist?  A faithful viewer of Pat Robertson's 700 Club?  Nope.  The question was not meant in earnest, and most of the thread has just been a joke.  Other than a few who didn't get the joke. 

[Mabs2]

This should be fun.  Who wants popcorn? 

So as I understand your stated position Rabbi, atheists/agnostics can't have kids, but Pagans, Hindus, etc. can?

No thanks:

[mnrivrat]

Not one offer to prove there is a god and make $10,000 to boot ! 

Story of my life - God hates us atheists !   

[Kyle]

In related news, an "extremeist" christian preacher came to my university the other day to preach at us about how we were all going to hell  for (insert one of 1001 reasons) or somesuch. Also, he had a blanket condemnation because apparently, if you go to college, you are doing it for money, and are a greedy bastard. Also, you should spend your study time worshiping God, than worshiping false idols like Knowledge, Satan's fruit, you damn idolater.

Obviously, there was an angry crowd around him allllll day. I (the heretical pagan) pissed off all my religious friends, by asking them why they were upset with the guy.

After all, he just takes his religion seriously, and doesn't pick and choose what he will and wont believe on, the durn "extremeist."

[Perd Hapley]

Kyle,

Can you supply the preacher's name, or denomination, or something that tells me what he believes in?  Where did this take place?  Let's expose these wierdos.

Why were your religious friends upset with him?

[LAK]

Should atheists, agnostics, etc. be allowed to have children?

This also includes people who are not members

And just who or what claims to have the authority to give or withhold "permission" for anyone - any free person - to have children?

And who or what gave this entity the power or authority to do so?

-------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Kyle]

Here is the full article Fistful. I say "my university" like I am hiding somthing, but I have spelled out UTSA dozens of times on THR so I guess that's a little silly.

In case you dont read the whole thing, the Secular Students Alliance brought him out because they were tired of hearing Christians say "I've never met a Christian like that," ala fistful.

My Christian friends were upset at him... because he was "twisting Christianity and making it look hateful." I would point out, he is not making any of this up and at the very worst he is exagerating some things found in the bible. I have more respect for this dude's faith than I do those friends of mine who complained about him. He says it like it is, and doesnt water his faith down to fit into modern society... even if his faith is utterly disgusting.




http://media.www.theindependentutsa.com/media/storage/paper1093/news/2007/02/19/News/Venyah.Condemns.Utsa-2727034.shtml

Venyah Condemns UTSA
Secular Student Alliance brings Preacher to Campus
Kalia Malone
Issue date: 2/19/07 Section: News


Michael Venyah, 38 year old from Michigan, decided to head to UTSA "last Saturday after the Lord commanded me to come." With wife of three and a half years, Tamika, and their child, Venyah travels the world spreading his message. His goal? To save the sinners from hell. His message drew such a strong response from the student body he was removed from campus on Monday and Tuesday.

Wednesday, Secular Student Alliance stepped in and gave him a table under their organization. "We believe in the right to freedom of speech" said Nick Paschall, President of SSA.

"Venyah was being removed from campus because of what he was saying." Paschall said. "Showing just how much we believe in the first amendment, we decided to share a table with Venyah."

While he passed out things like "You have been lied to about God" SSA passed out condoms from UTSA student health center and fliers for the Americans United for Separation of Church and State, who opposes "the dangerous agenda of Religious Right groups like the Christian Coalition and Focus on the Family." SSA doesn't agree with him but "brought him to show what they don't like, closed minded individuals."

Venyah could be considered closed minded. His bright red shirt displayed "All homos go to Hell", and "No Homos go to Heaven" in bold letters, but his message was not limited to those who live a homosexual lifestyle. According to Venyah, anyone who sins by any definition the Bible gives is headed down. Both him and his wife claim to live a life completely without sin, although Tamika said that "if I sin I am no longer a Christian." When asked if he takes the Bible literally, he said "the Bible is for literal interpretation with metaphoric context."

Students from all backgrounds agreed that Venyah was not the best vessel to give a message of turning to God. Ryan, a Political Science major and Junior at UTSA said "it's about the end result not about the freedom of speech. No on should be subjected to a hate message." According to Venyah, God does in fact hate some people. "God does not love those who sin against him" he said when asked. He also mentioned Ezekiel 7:3-4 that talks about the judgment of God.

Ana Graves, Campus Minister with Inter Varsity Christian Fellowship, said "he portrayed Christianity as a hateful thing. The truth is Jesus loves us and wants us to show love to others." Although she did admit that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, she said "God is a forgiving God, one that loves us in the midst of our sins." She was not alone. Anthony, Psychology major and senior said that Venyah made him "uncomfortable". He quoted Paul the Apostle, "'would you rather I came with a whip or with love,' people don't respond well to a whip".

"It's a little crazy. He's supposed to be a man of god and it's like, he has a lot of hatred." Said Tiffany Kindred, a students who seemed offended by Venyah's preaching. "It's just a lot. If we don't get it right we're all gonna go to hell."

After his interview, Venyah prayed that I would "turn to the Lord and escape damnation" and as a reporter I would share the truth. Was his prayer successful? You tell me.

[Perd Hapley]

If you go to college, you are doing it for money, and are a greedy bastard. Also, you should spend your study time worshiping God, than worshiping false idols like Knowledge, Satan's fruit

And you took this for authentic Christian doctrine?  You thought your "religious friends" should accept this as part of their Christianity?  Why? 


Kyle, let me see if I understand you.  You think that the Bible, or true Christianity, is hateful and/or irrational or anti-intellectual?  Something like that?  And therefore any Christian who won't profess those kinds of views is an intellectual coward or is choosing to ignore parts of the Bible they have trouble with?  OK.  I would agree that a lot of people do that.  I have also met people who don't seem to.  Have you read the Bible?  Have you looked into the way differrent branches of Christianity interpret it?  You could hardly expect everyone to get the same message from such a large book that has so many things to say.  Are all of your "religious friends" of the same denomination?  Would you say their Christianity was liberal or conservative? 

The following are examples of Christians claiming the "extreme" things you want them to admit. 

an "extremeist" christian preacher came to my university the other day to preach at us about how we were all going to hell  for (insert one of 1001 reasons) or somesuch.

Well, I can find you plenty of Christians who say that sinners go to hell.  Most of them won't go to a college campus to say it, of course.  My pastor has preached this at colleges in the past. 

After all, he just takes his religion seriously, and doesn't pick and choose what he will and wont believe on.

  What is it that Christians are choosing not to believe?  That homosexuals are going to hell?  Well, thousands of people have studied the Bible and have come to different conclusions on that.  The Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is a sin and that sin is punished by hell.  But things get cloudier from there.  Some believe one can have saving faith and still commit sins like homosexuality.  Some believe that sins like murder, homosexuality and others would indicate a lack of saving faith.  And that's just the beginning of variant points of view. 

Tamika said that "if I sin I am no longer a Christian."

  My preacher says that sort of thing all the time.  He thinks it's very clearly taught in scripture.  I do not.  His is the minority position.

According to Venyah, God does in fact hate some people. "God does not love those who sin against him" he said when asked.

My local Lutheran radio show (LCMS) was teaching that God hates unrepentant sinners just the other day.  Of course, they might use the word differently than you do.     

[Kyle]

I have friends of all different Christian denominations. Some of them think homosexuality is a sin. Some homosexual Christian friends of mine say it isnt, and that the real sin is discrimination against gays.

The tie that binds them both together is that they both pick and choose what to believe, and what not to believe. The "conservative" ones base their homos-are-sinners belief on an obscure passage from Leviticus. However, that same book spells out how to handle menstrating women, how to clean yourself if you get ejaculate on yourself, the necessity of and proper way to ritualisticaly sacrifice animals, etc. It also says that rabbits are unclean because they chew cud but don't have split hooves... even though rabbits do NOT chew their cud. I would exhaust myself if I kept going.

The idea is, they harp on the laying with man as you would with a woman, but they IGNORE everything else. They can quote the gay passage verbatim but they cant even give a light outline of the rest of Leviticus. Who taught them to do that, huh? The gay ones can quote the whole book of Leviticus but ignore the simple fact that the Bible they love so much calls them abominations.

And you are going to claim that Christianity is not inherently anti-intelectual? In the Bible, REASON and INTELEGENCE are held up to be the paths tp Hell. Blind faith is the right path. Doubt is the best way to achieve knowledge, but doubt is forbidden in the Bible.

A cursory look at the history of Christianity will demonstrate how anti-intelectual that particular religion is. I dont feel the need to go over it all.

[Kyle]

I forgot to add.

Yes, I have read the bible. I have read the KJV cover to cover and recently the NIV cover to cover. I have probably read the KJV 5 times if you count the bits and pieces.

[roo_ster]

From what I know of Michael Venyah's theology, it is not orthodox* Christianity:

Both him and his wife claim to live a life completely without sin...

Yeah, right.  Let's see how that works for him in the long run**.

Oh, the bents don't get to dictate to the straights what is normal.  Atheists don't get to define orthodox Christianity, either.  Especially when they display ignorance of its theology.

* There is some basic theology all orthodox Christian denominations hold.  Unorthodox Christianity can be anything from gnostic beliefs to believing in such rejected scriptures like the Gospel of Thomas & Judas & making hay from them ("Paging Dan Brown...").  Unorthodox denominations are not considered Christian by the orthodox.

** In the long run, we're all dead. ----John Maynard Keynes