NY Man Arrested for Shooting Burglars

[Ben]

First off, this story and the one I read yesterday (not linked) contain limited information. However, I'm going to be curious to see what "illegal handgun" means.

The story yesterday implied that the LE considered this a legal shoot. The story this morning says that the homeowner has been arrested for illegally owning the gun. I am curious as to what "illegal" means, as the story seems to imply it has to do with registration.

Note the age of the homeowner. If he has owned the gun for say, 40 years, he may have absolutely purchased or otherwise obtained it legally in a way that is currently illegal. I'm not familiar with current NY law, but am wondering if perhaps there is a "mandatory registration" law on their books that requires older firearms and/or those brought into the state to be registered? Perhaps something that someone who doesn't keep up with gun rights, but owns a gun, would miss?

As we often discuss here, there are so many laws on the books that likely all of us are felons without knowing it. As an example, I might have been in CA. My parents bought me my first 1911 for my 18th birthday, ~40 years ago, when it was perfectly legal to do so in CA. I was never clear on if I should have "registered" that gun at some point after the stricter CA laws came into effect.  CA also requires new residents to register their handguns when moving into the state, and they must be "state approved" handguns. The only way I learned about that was through NRA mailings.

If NY has something similar, someone who doesn't keep on on gun rights could easily move into the state with an "illegal" handgun simply because they didn't know they had to report ownership. The only way LE might find out about that is in a situation like this, where someone was defending their life and property.

Anyway, limited information at this point, but it being NY, I will be interested to see what "illegal" ends up being.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-man-faces-illegal-weapons-charges-after-killing-2-burglars-in-his-home

[MechAg94]

Hopefully, he doesn't have to sign some harsh plea deal to avoid jail. 

[230RN]

The article clarified my first question, which was whether this was NY City or NY State.  It was the State.

At about 2:40 p.m., officials say Stolarczyk interrupted a man and woman burglarizing his home in Deerfield, New York, located about four hours north of New York City. Stolarczyk then shot the two suspects, according to police.

A handgun was used, according to the article.

Within New York City itself, it was common knowledge for just about everybody that ownership of a handgun was illegal, period.  There may have been technical exceptions to this, but basiclaly the attitude was if you owned a handgun, you were either a criminal or a cop.

Rifles were OK, and deer hunting was prevalent "upstate." However, I understand that recently (10 years ago?) even rifles had to be registered by a new State law..

Throughout the rest of the State (including the eastern counties of Long Island), the laws were variable but generally less strict. Still, the "(hand)guns is bad" attitude had only somewhat percolated through the State anyhow. (As in your case, firearms information was not normally distributed.) I did know a person in Nassau County* who had a legitimate license to carry, but he was also a licensed private detective.

So I could understand that a handgun owner in the rest of the State might not realize that handguns had to be registered, especially if the gun had been obtained a long time ago.

Yeah, "four hours north of the city," would have been what we could call "flyover country" with respect to "urban sophistication" and I can understand someone owning either a handgun or a rifle without realizing it needed registration.

Terry

* Quick geography.  Long Island is a 120 mile long island ( :) )  only about the western third of which is in New York City proper.  Brooklyn and Queens in the west are boroughs within the City. East of those are Nassau and Suffolk Counties, which are not in the City limits.  

Map of NY State including Long Island:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Long_Island_location_map.svg

Where is Deerfield NY?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deerfield,_New_York

[BobR]

So, from what I read in this thread because I can't get to the article, the guy was not arrested for shooting the  guys but rather for having an illegal firearm for doing the deed. Now I wonder if it is supposedly a good shooting if it will become a bad shooting because he was already committing a crime because the handgun was not legally registered. Just some lunch time musings.

bob

[Angel Eyes]

CA also requires new residents to register their handguns when moving into the state, and they must be "state approved" handguns. The only way I learned about that was through NRA mailings.

A bit off-topic, but a point of clarification: persons who move to California can bring all of their handguns with them as long as they are not "assault weapons" per the state's definition.  The handguns do not have to be on the "safe handgun" list.

The owners are required to register all their handguns with the state once they move.  I don't recall the deadline offhand; it's either within 2 weeks or 30 days of moving to CA.

As you noted, the state does a poor job of notifying its residents of these requirements.

[BobR]

A bit off-topic, but a point of clarification: persons who move to California can bring all of their handguns with them as long as they are not "assault weapons" per the state's definition.  The handguns do not have to be on the "safe handgun" list.

The owners are required to register all their handguns with the state once they move.  I don't recall the deadline offhand; it's either within 2 weeks or 30 days of moving to CA.

As you noted, the state does a poor job of notifying its residents of these requirements.

So I could buy up a ton of older Smith's and Colt's (or any guns) that are very desirable, move to CA, sell them for a bundle and retire and live happily ever after???

No, still not worth it to move to CA.

bob

Afterthought, or do they have a law saying I can't sell a handgun on the non-approved list once it is in the state?

[Angel Eyes]

So I could buy up a ton of older Smith's and Colt's (or any guns) that are very desirable, move to CA, sell them for a bundle and retire and live happily ever after???

Yes.

No, still not worth it to move to CA.

Agreed.

Afterthought, or do they have a law saying I can't sell a handgun on the non-approved list once it is in the state?

A CA resident may sell a non-approved handgun to another CA resident, as long as it is not an "assault weapon."

[Ben]

A bit off-topic, but a point of clarification: persons who move to California can bring all of their handguns with them as long as they are not "assault weapons" per the state's definition.  The handguns do not have to be on the "safe handgun" list.

Okay, my error. I thought handguns needed to be on the approved list for everyone but LE.

And  I won't even say CA, or NY, or really any state does a bad or good job of informing residents old and new about laws. Really, all states suck at it because there are simply so many. There is every chance a guy could move to CA with an "assault rifle" and live his whole life shooting it with zero problems, until there's an incident. Just like this guy in NY (if we're using this premise) could have lived happily ever after with his "unregistered" (but perhaps legally acquired at the time) gun except that he had to use it to defend himself and his property. Now even if it's a good shoot, he's a criminal because of a law he may have had no way of knowing about.

The old saying, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse", is pretty much worthless as far as I'm concerned these days. It's pretty impossible to NOT be ignorant of all the laws on the books across jurisdictions.

[Ned Hamford]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NY_SAFE_Act

2013 Law literally passed in the middle of the night without being read; following the Sandyhook shooting.  It is facially unconstitutional in more than a couple provisions and something like 9/10ths of the county law enforcement (sheriff's departments) publicly said they will not be enforcing it.   

Demagogue democrats have taken over the state and gone off the rails.  They actually just changed a bunch of the elections laws.  Now the only time to petition is in the deepest part of winter.  No real issue for the NYC apartment buildings, but for upstate and the western boondocks, an onerous process just became dangerous and costly; as intended.  Our top state official, Governor Cuomo, actually said there is no room in the state for Republicans. And not some gaff, but something he has said at length.   

[Scout26]

Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with

[Scout26]

NY State handgun laws, so we can stop guessing as to how onerous they are.

http://handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf

[makattak]

Demagogue democrats have taken over the state and gone off the rails.  They actually just changed a bunch of the elections laws.  Now the only time to petition is in the deepest part of winter.  No real issue for the NYC apartment buildings, but for upstate and the western boondocks, an onerous process just became dangerous and costly; as intended.  Our top state official, Governor Cuomo, actually said there is no room in the state for Republicans. And not some gaff, but something he has said at length.  

Many of our states need reorganization. Maybe Philly-NYC can all become part of Jersey (since Jersey already has the laws they want) and the rest of PA and NY can form their own state, with Pittsburgh/Buffalo the largest cities.

Make the DC Area from Baltimore to Virginia Beach one state. Merge the Eastern Shores of MD and VA with DE and the Western Parts of MD and VA with WV.

I think changes like that would not affect the balance of power in DC, but would make the interests within the states more aligned. (AND I eliminated 4 senators, this way. That's always a plus.)

I'd love to do something like that for Illinois, but the problem is none of the surrounding states would want Chicago, anyway. Give it to Canada?

[Angel Eyes]

NY State handgun laws, so we can stop guessing as to how onerous they are.

http://handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_York

The part that seems most relevant to the OP:

New York state law does not require a license to own or possess long guns, but does require a permit to legally possess or own a pistol.

This might be why the guy was arrested.

(and in case anyone cares:  California does not require a permit to possess a firearm, and possession of an unregistered firearm (other than "assault weapons") is not illegal.  At least not yet.)

[Angel Eyes]

I'd love to do something like that for Illinois, but the problem is none of the surrounding states would want Chicago, anyway. Give it to Canada?

The Canadians are too smart for that.

Go Carthage on Chicago?

[BobR]

(and in case anyone cares:  California does not require a permit to possess a firearm, and possession of an unregistered firearm (other than "assault weapons") is not illegal.  At least not yet.)

And the unlicensed carry of a concealed pistol used to be a misdemeanor, it may still be. It depends on the interviewing officer. Of course my knowledge base comes from 1990 or so, but it is personal knowledge. The LEO was pretty cool about the whole thing, even pulled out his HUGE penal code book to show me the law and how he could use his discretion to go from nothing to felony depending on circumstances. I even got to keep my guns.

bob

[Angel Eyes]

And the unlicensed carry of a concealed permit used to be a misdemeanor, it may still be.

You need a license to carry a permit?

 

[BobR]

You need a license to carry a permit?

 

Well, it is California...you just never know. Gotta figure out some way to pay for the care and upkeep of the illegals.

bob


fixed

[MechAg94]

Okay, my error. I thought handguns needed to be on the approved list for everyone but LE.

And  I won't even say CA, or NY, or really any state does a bad or good job of informing residents old and new about laws. Really, all states suck at it because there are simply so many. There is every chance a guy could move to CA with an "assault rifle" and live his whole life shooting it with zero problems, until there's an incident. Just like this guy in NY (if we're using this premise) could have lived happily ever after with his "unregistered" (but perhaps legally acquired at the time) gun except that he had to use it to defend himself and his property. Now even if it's a good shoot, he's a criminal because of a law he may have had no way of knowing about.

The old saying, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse", is pretty much worthless as far as I'm concerned these days. It's pretty impossible to NOT be ignorant of all the laws on the books across jurisdictions.

I have to agree with that last part.  Most especially when we allow non-elected agencies to define what some of those laws are.

[Angel Eyes]

Well, it is California...you just never know. Gotta figure out some way to pay for the care and upkeep of the illegals.

It's okay; I knew what you meant.

I don't have the source handy, but if memory serves, the penalty for concealed carry without a permit is less severe if the firearm is registered to the person carrying it.  I think it's a misdemeanor vs. a felony.

[HankB]

When I read stories like this I'm reminded of police stories my next door neighbor told me back in Chicago. (He was a plainclothes CPD officer.)

One thing that struck me was the difficulty they had in prosecuting a shooter for illegal gun possession if they didn't recover the gun. IANAL and I don't know the details, but when I read the OP, I couldn't help but think . . . what if they didn't recover the gun?  (Yeah, yeah, NY isn't IL, 2019 isn't the 1970s, etc.)

Any lawyers willing to weigh in?

[T.O.M.]

The SAFE act is a nightmare.  It allows ownership of 10 round mags, but prohibits loading more than 7 rounds in one of those mags outside of a range...   

Wanna give yourself a home stress test?  Check out the NY State website for SAFE...

https://safeact.ny.gov/

Never mind...that mag limit rule was struck down...

https://buffalonews.com/2015/10/19/appeals-court-upholds-safe-act-but-rules-against-seven-bullet-limit/

[Hawkmoon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_York

The part that seems most relevant to the OP:
This might be why the guy was arrested.

In NY state, you need a NY permit to even touch a handgun. For NY residents, every handgun you own or may carry must be individually listed on your permit. So it's not just a permit to carry "a" handgun ... it's a permit to carry "this" (or "these") handgun(s), and no others.

[Hawkmoon]

Never mind...that mag limit rule was struck down...

https://buffalonews.com/2015/10/19/appeals-court-upholds-safe-act-but-rules-against-seven-bullet-limit/

Well, if you consider 10 rounds to be "large capacity" or "full capacity" I guess that's good news.