Author Topic: What climate change?  (Read 962 times)

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,259
What climate change?
« on: May 28, 2019, 01:39:21 AM »
https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/03/greenland-glacier-reverses-course-growing-again-after-shrinking-for-years/

A major glacier, that the green weenies have been using for years as "proof" of man-made climate change, has decided it wants to be a glacier again, so it has been chowing down on snow and stuff and getting thicker instead of thinner. Undeterred, the faithful acolytes welcome the good news by saying:

Quote
“That was kind of a surprise. We kind of got used to a runaway system,” said Geological Survey of Denmark and Greenland ice and climate scientist Jason Box. “The good news is that it’s a reminder that it’s not necessarily going that fast. But it is going.”

In other words ... never get too far from the narrative.

From the article itself (rather than something quoted in the article):

Quote
Interestingly, scientists have started to use biomarker proxies used to reconstruct both Arctic and Antarctic sea ice conditions since the Early Holocene (i.e., about 11,500 years ago) reveal that today’s sea ice changes are not unusual. Additionally, they decided that there is more extensive Arctic and Antarctic sea ice during recent decades than nearly all of the last 10,000 years.

What was 230RN saying recently? Something about "sample size," IIRC.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,880
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2019, 02:37:12 AM »
iT'S THE SAMPLE SIZE, STUPID CLICK IT'S THE SAMPLE SIZE, STUPID CLICK IT'S THE SAMPLE SIZE, STUPID CLICK SKWAAARRK!

(For those of you who remember disc recordings with a scratch in them and the expression "You sound like a broken record," and the sound made when the needle is snatched off the record.)

It's funny how they exhibit Orwell's doublethink.

Thanks for the nod, Hawkmoon.

Terry

REF:
https://www.cliffsnotes.com/cliffsnotes/subjects/literature/in-orwells-1984-what-isdoublethink
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 03:12:45 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

griz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,042
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2019, 06:55:53 AM »
Quote
“The good news is that it’s a reminder that it’s not necessarily going that fast. But it is going.”

When you think contrary evidence reinforces your position you have to stop calling it science.
Sent from a stone age computer via an ordinary keyboard.

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,880
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2019, 08:14:41 AM »
^ ✓✓
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,259
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2019, 10:28:38 AM »
When you think contrary evidence reinforces your position you have to stop calling it science.

Exactly.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,734
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2019, 11:05:04 AM »
Quote
The reason for the expansion is being attributed to a natural climate cycle.

A natural cyclical cooling of North Atlantic waters likely caused the glacier to reverse course, said study lead author Ala Khazendar, a NASA glaciologist on the Oceans Melting Greenland project. Khazendar and colleagues say this coincides with a flip of the North Atlantic Oscillation — a natural and temporary cooling and warming of parts of the ocean that is like a distant cousin to El Nino in the Pacific.

The water in Disko Bay, where Jakobshavn hits the ocean, is about 3.6 degrees cooler than a few years ago, study authors said.
Of course, the increase in the glacier is just a natural cycle.  The previous reduction was global warming (Don't forget that!). 

I need to come back and read through those links.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,259
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2019, 11:34:01 AM »
Meanwhile, a report published by the National Academy of Sciences is advocating that we plan for a 6-1/2 FOOT rise in sea level by the end of the century.

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/21052019/antarctica-greenland-ice-sheet-melting-sea-level-rise-risk-climate-change-polar-scientists

I don't even know what to say about that.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,252
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2019, 11:47:53 AM »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,881
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2019, 01:28:02 PM »
^  “Why we can’t beat the Soviets”

A lot of wrong on that cover  :laugh:

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,252
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2019, 05:55:59 PM »
^  “Why we can’t beat the Soviets”

A lot of wrong on that cover  :laugh:



Well, you know, the science is settled and all that.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2019, 09:57:19 PM »
100 and 500 year floods every 5 to 10 years in the Midwest, something has to be going on. Granted some of it is from land use change, more wetlands have been drained/tiled to be farmed, constant tillage for 170 years makes the soil more compacted and less water permutation due to loss of organic matter, less permanent pasture ground to soak up excess moisture drainage areas straighten out which moves more water and lots more concrete surfaces directing water to a storm sewers that concentrate water downstream.
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,259
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2019, 10:18:25 PM »
100 and 500 year floods every 5 to 10 years in the Midwest, something has to be going on. Granted some of it is from land use change, more wetlands have been drained/tiled to be farmed, constant tillage for 170 years makes the soil more compacted and less water permutation due to loss of organic matter, less permanent pasture ground to soak up excess moisture drainage areas straighten out which moves more water and lots more concrete surfaces directing water to a storm sewers that concentrate water downstream.

Columbus "discovered" America 527 years ago, and that wasn't even the mainland. The first European settlement on the mainland of North America was in 1526, and it lasted all of three months (San Miguel de Gualdape). Skipping over a couple of others that also didn't last, the first continuously occupied ("permanent") European settlement in what would become the United States was Saint Augustine, FL, in 1565. That was 454 years ago. Through the time of the American Revolution, our knowledge of the North American continent was mostly confined to the east and gulf coasts, and inland basically to the Appalachian mountains or (to a lesser extent) the Mississippi River.

Therefore, what does "500-year flood" mean? It means it's someone's guess as to the flood level that is only expected to occur once in 500 years. But, since we obviously don't have observations covering multiple 500-year windows, that's only a guess at best. At worst, it's a number made up out of thin air.

As an architect, I had training in planning, and I've been involved in zoning, wetlands, conservation, and flood plain issues for several decades. E=ven when I was first starting off, fresh out of architecture school, we were commenting that we were seeing fifty year floods at least every ten years. This was fifty years ago, in the early 1970s. What it suggests is that whatever modeling was used to establish those flood predictions was -- to put it bluntly -- wrong. Remember, "If the results don't fit the theory, it's time to revise the theory."

The fact that we are seeing "100-year" and "500-year" floods more frequently than people who had no hard data extending that far back projected as future anticipated flood levels doesn't mean that "something has happened." It more likely means that the projections were wrong from the outset.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2019, 08:34:27 AM »
Columbus "discovered" America 527 years ago, and that wasn't even the mainland. The first European settlement on the mainland of North America was in 1526, and it lasted all of three months (San Miguel de Gualdape). Skipping over a couple of others that also didn't last, the first continuously occupied ("permanent") European settlement in what would become the United States was Saint Augustine, FL, in 1565. That was 454 years ago. Through the time of the American Revolution, our knowledge of the North American continent was mostly confined to the east and gulf coasts, and inland basically to the Appalachian mountains or (to a lesser extent) the Mississippi River.

Therefore, what does "500-year flood" mean? It means it's someone's guess as to the flood level that is only expected to occur once in 500 years. But, since we obviously don't have observations covering multiple 500-year windows, that's only a guess at best. At worst, it's a number made up out of thin air.

As an architect, I had training in planning, and I've been involved in zoning, wetlands, conservation, and flood plain issues for several decades. E=ven when I was first starting off, fresh out of architecture school, we were commenting that we were seeing fifty year floods at least every ten years. This was fifty years ago, in the early 1970s. What it suggests is that whatever modeling was used to establish those flood predictions was -- to put it bluntly -- wrong. Remember, "If the results don't fit the theory, it's time to revise the theory."

The fact that we are seeing "100-year" and "500-year" floods more frequently than people who had no hard data extending that far back projected as future anticipated flood levels doesn't mean that "something has happened." It more likely means that the projections were wrong from the outset.

You can do soil coring samples to see silt and sand layers to determine when flooding occurred (carbon 14 dating) and the extent of it.
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,734
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2019, 09:04:14 AM »
I always heard the 500 years flood thing was just a bunch of risk management BS. 

Down here, we had flooding in 2016 and 2017 (Hurricane Harvey) that everyone said was worse than had been seen in many decades.  That was a two years in a row.  Harvey was an odd ball hurricane, but 2016 was just heavy, heavy rains up river.  We had some heavy rains last month that caused high river levels, but didn't quite get to 2016 levels. 

I wonder how much of it is humans trying to control river flows and setting up reservoirs and trying to manipulate drainage to build more homes on low ground.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2019, 10:04:35 AM »
I think we're having "500 year flooding" here now. This one is worse than the "500 year flooding" we had 33 years ago though.
Thankfully, the 100 year flooding we get every 5-6 years isn't normally this prolonged.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,396
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2019, 04:56:14 PM »
Columbus "discovered" America 527 years ago, and that wasn't even the mainland.


No, he discovered America. The quotation marks are for sophomores, which you are not.

Millions of people did not know the New World existed, making it a legitimate discovery. The fact that natives knew it was there, or that Vikings found it first, doesn't change that.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,259
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2019, 11:15:48 PM »

I wonder how much of it is humans trying to control river flows and setting up reservoirs and trying to manipulate drainage to build more homes on low ground.

When I was in graduate school I took a one semester course on aerial photo interpretation. One of the instructor's comments was that all interests compete for flood plain land, because

  • It's generally level, so it's easier to farm on
  • It's generally level, so it's easier to build roads on
  • It's generally level, so it's easier to build railroads on
  • It's generally level, so it's easier to build airports on
  • It's generally level, so it's easier to build houses on
  • It's generally level, so it's easier to build factories on
  • It's generally level, so it's easier to build schools on
  • ...

Are we seeing a pattern here?

There's just one little problem with flood plain land -- it floods. No problem -- we'll just build levees, and let the poor schmucks downstream worry about the flooding. What could possibly go wrong?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2019, 02:43:27 PM »
We've got quite a bit of "flood control" here in NE Oklahoma. This round of record breaking rainfall has our flood control resevoirs at 100%+ of capacity and no place to send the water that isn't already in flooded conditions.
The 70 year old levees in West Tulsa are holding but the neighborhoods behind them have been evacuated. I really expect them to let go if we don't get some relief from the rain forecasts call for 3 days of dry but more rain and storms next week.

Downstream on the Arkansas River, towns are flooded and some areas are completely cut off from ground access.
Pretty much every watershed in NE Oklahoma feeds the Arkansas.
People that are NOT in flood plains or flood prone areas have been flooded. Areas that have no recorded history of flooding have been underwater.  

It's going to be a long and expensive cleanup.  We may have seen the worst but it is far from over.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,259
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2019, 07:28:27 PM »
And it's all my fault, because I don't drive a Prius.

Sorry, folks. Mea culpa.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: What climate change?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2019, 09:09:23 PM »
If only Trump hadn't abandoned the Paris climate accords scam.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams