Author Topic: Another athiest question.  (Read 15094 times)

tyme

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2007, 03:45:21 AM »
Quote from: lee n field
If the candidate was a ranting, wear-it-on-my-sleeve, bring it up in casual conversation type atheist, like this Richard Dawkins guy, then I would suspect psychological "issues" that would mean he probably shouldn't have any authority higher than meter maid.

"This Richard Dawkins guy" has done more to popularize sociobiology than just about anyone else.  E.O. Wilson is smarter, and there are a few other people who have written less-popular books that are more scientific or philosophically sound.  Still, Dawkins is a household name, and the others are not.  He may not be a hard-core scientist, but he can certainly write.  And he's done more to get society thinking about important issues than any of us probably ever will.

If he ran for president, I'd vote for him in a heartbeat.
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Cromlech

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2007, 03:52:36 AM »
For the atheists, I like to have them describe the God they don't believe in.

Of course, this question presupposes that the atheist being asked has any particular image in mind of God/Gods at all. Seeing as I distinctly lack the belief in any deity, I don't have any image in mind for one that may in fact exist.
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RJMcElwain

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2007, 03:57:33 AM »

What kind of answers do you get?  It sounds sort of impossible, describing something that you don't believe exists.

Most atheists have a pretty clear image of what they don't believe in. Often they've looked at the orthodox Christian image of God, which sometimes is portrayed as a vengeful baby-killing warmonger, depending on which part of the Old Testament one reads. For them, such a God is abhorrent.

But, at the same time, they may see an indefinable spirit that moves people and societies that, for many is as close as we can get to experiencing God. So it's one thing for someone to say they are an atheist. It's more important to see how they deal with life and their fellow man to see if the spirit of God is within them.

Bob
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RJMcElwain

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2007, 04:01:37 AM »
For the atheists, I like to have them describe the God they don't believe in.

Of course, this question presupposes that the atheist being asked has any particular image in mind of God/Gods at all. Seeing as I distinctly lack the belief in any deity, I don't have any image in mind for one that may in fact exist.

How about substituting spirit for deity?  Does that make any difference for you? When I think of deity, I think of some kind of being that can leave a footprint.

Bob
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Cromlech

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2007, 04:45:07 AM »
I can't say that I have any belief in spirits either really. You do pose an interesting question, though I rather lack the ability to answer it, as much of a cop-out as that may be.
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grislyatoms

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2007, 04:53:56 AM »
Well, how's this for a hodgepodge? A conservative Zen Buddhist Agnostic? Admittedly, I have not practiced zazen in quite some time, but the base principles are still there. Also, for those who don't know much about it, the presence (or lack) of deity in Buddhist thought is irrelevant.

I dabbled in several flavors of Abrahmic religions; they did nothing for me. The only other group that offered me anything were the Unitarian Universalists, I greatly enjoyed their company and conversations. Their services were pretty cool, too. I probably would have stayed with them but I didn't feel the need to "belong" to their group.

Overall, my beliefs mirror Moondoggie's almost exactly. We should go out and have a beer or a coffee sometime. cheesy

I would vote for an agnostic or atheist, but not for that reason, as others have mentioned. If they stand on their own merits and I agree with their platform (or as much or more of it than other candidates), they get my vote.

Edited for a spelling mistake
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Lee

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2007, 05:01:45 AM »
Quote
I do know that more evil has been perpretrated upon mankind by mankind in the name of religion than almost any other motivation.  5,000 yrs of "civilization" behind us, and lots of folks are still willing to commit mass murder indiscriminently in the name of religion.

I'll pull a Mike Irwin on you there.  Where are your facts to support that?
Sounds more like liberal University speak to me.

The Huns, the expansion of the Roman, Persian, and other Empires, Napoleon, WWI, WWII, the holicost, purges by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, The American Civil War? 

How do the relatively small atrocities committed specifically in the name of religion compare?  I would think that the crusades against religion were far worse.   

Moondoggie

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2007, 05:52:55 AM »
I wasn't aware that I had to have facts to support an opinion.  Particularly in a thread regarding religious orientation and politics.

Not all of the examples you cited were necessarily "evil".  Territorial battles are common to most species.  Competition for scarce resources is a facet of economics, no other species kills simply over religious differences.

Many wars have been fought based upon religious differences.  I recall an example in the Old Testament where God sent an angel to command Joshua to go up into the lands of other inhabitants and "slay every living thing."  I can cite many examples from the Bible where God has no compunction about killing people...like, Noah, build an ark.  Islam also has numerous examples of sanctioning killing of non-believers.

It hasn't been that long ago that Christians in Ireland were murdering each other with regularity based upon primarily religious divides.

"Liberal"...that's a term I've never heard applied to me in my 54 yrs.
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RJMcElwain

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2007, 08:39:34 AM »
Quote
I do know that more evil has been perpretrated upon mankind by mankind in the name of religion than almost any other motivation.  5,000 yrs of "civilization" behind us, and lots of folks are still willing to commit mass murder indiscriminently in the name of religion.

I'll pull a Mike Irwin on you there.  Where are your facts to support that?
Sounds more like liberal University speak to me.

The Huns, the expansion of the Roman, Persian, and other Empires, Napoleon, WWI, WWII, the holicost, purges by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, The American Civil War? 

How do the relatively small atrocities committed specifically in the name of religion compare?  I would think that the crusades against religion were far worse.   

The statement that more people have been killed in the name of religion is frequently quoted, although I don't know it's origin. However, as a minor aside. One reason we're in the current war is that God talked to George. At least, that's what George said.

Bob
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RJMcElwain

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2007, 08:44:11 AM »
Well, how's this for a hodgepodge? A conservative Zen Bhuddist Agnostic? Admittedly, I have not practiced zazen in quite some time, but the base principles are still there. Also, for those who don't know much about it, the presence (or lack) of deity in Buddhist thought is irrelevant.........

I have a friend who describes himself as a Buddhistic Christian. I'm not sure exactly how he means that, but I suspect he is saying that he follows the proscriptions of Jesus but doesn't buy into all the magic of the Bible. He happens to be an Anglican priest, so I assume he knows what he's talking about.   smiley

Bob
Robert J. McElwain
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"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." ~Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2007, 05:20:36 AM »
Quote from: fistful
more that opted for atheism and left-wing, anti-gun politics as part of the same package. 
Is there anyway to substantiate that?
I'm curious if those represented here are an anamoly.


carebear pretty much explained what I meant. 
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K Frame

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2007, 05:40:08 AM »
The holicost?

Do you mean the Holocaust? As in Nazi Germany's attempt to exterminate the Jewish race?

Certainly nothing religious about that...

There was extreme religious-based fighting in the Balkans even in the midst of World War II that mirrors much of what has been seen over the past decade or so.

Empire expansion also often had a lot of religious undertones about it, especially the Persian empire and Christian expansionism into the new world. The Spanish undertook a policy of "convert or die" with many of the tribal groups they encountered in Central and South America.

The Romans were perhaps the most tolerant of religious differences in their empire, even adopting as their own many local gods, especially those from Egypt, and incorporating them into their broad religious traditions.

Pol Pot and Stalin both specifically targeted the religious factions in their nations for extermination.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2007, 05:49:19 AM »
One reason we're in the current war is that God talked to George. At least, that's what George said.

Let's see that one backed up with fact, as well.   rolleyes
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2007, 07:45:45 AM »
Quote
Do you mean the Holocaust? As in Nazi Germany's attempt to exterminate the Jewish race? Certainly nothing religious about that...

This is the usual wrong example that people give.

The policy-makers responsible for the final solution had quite a bit of mystical beliefs, which did amount to a religion, albeit a primitive one. In another thread, I wrote a longer piece on the issue. The jist of it is worshipping the aryan blood and heritage, which is a form of primitive ancestral worship. They had a bible, mythology, holy sites, mystic rituals, clergy, templar, and warrior-priests, albeit under different names. The primary reason for the extermination was to root out racial pollutants as well as the perceived chief source of pollution. If the policy-makers did not worship the aryan blood/heritage and strive to ensure its purity, there would have been no reason to exterminate any ethnicity.

K Frame

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2007, 08:11:39 AM »
You need to read deeper into the Nazi archives, and past them into German history.

Yes, racial heritage was the root of the racial purity laws of 1935, but the Jews were targeted as a specific religious group in total.

You're also ignoring the fact that many of the willing participants in the Holocaust were not advocates of either Nazism or the Aryan mysticism that had cropped up -- they were Christians, acting inside of the structure permitted by the rise of the Nazis, but for many of the same reasons that had been fueling anti-Jewish hatred all across Europe for hundres of years.

Hitler's fear and loathing of Jews also was also present in him LONG before he became a Nazi, and the roots of those personal issues were very likely fueled by Christian-Jewish antagonism.


Oh, interesting quote from Adolf Hitler in a speech before the Reichstag.

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

And from Mein Kampf.

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."

And in reference to the Jews...

"Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve."

And here Hitler gives the basis of rising anti-Semitism in Germany in the late 1800s and early 1900s...

"The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge." (Mein Kampf)

There's a lot more like that that CLEARLY ties Hitler's anti-Semitism to religious foundations. The concerns about the purity of the German race were hung on those concerns, NOT the other way around.
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2007, 08:30:26 AM »
Quote
the Jews were targeted as a specific religious group in total.

I do not understand your train of thought here. One religious group (nazis) targets another religious group (jews). Do you agree with me then? Please elaborate.

Also, the jews were not the only religious group targeted. The aryan believers had a particular loathing for christians as well, because they felt christianity was a religion of the weak, while the aryan heritage and historical german paganism worshipped strength/nature. A manifestation of that attitude was christian politicians, writers, journalists, and certain catholic priests ending up in concentration camps far earlier than the jews as a religious and ethnic group.

Quote
many of the willing participants in the Holocaust were ...  Christians, acting inside of the structure permitted by the rise of the Nazis


I consider that plausible, but if anything, it reinforces the general statement that the final solution is a poor example of atheists slaughtering believers. Both christians and nazis qualify as believers slaughtering believers.

I need to think a bit about Hitler as a christian. His foundations certainly were christian, but I do not know to what extent he preserved them as he created his own worldviews. He was a choir boy under a catholic priest of decidedly eastern mysticism leanings, and it is believed that is where Hitler stole the buddhist ideas of periodicity as well as the swastika as a symbol of the sun and of rebirth. Finally, Mein Kampf was written in the early 1920s and with the obvious direct involvement of Rudolph Hess, while the mythology of the nazis was fully developed later. Also, Mein Kampf was a propagandist work when the "movement was new", so I would not put it past Hitler to try to swing as many as possible to his banners. If he should tap into christian anti-semitism at that point does not necessarily obtain that the nazi mythology was philosophically based on the same, even if some of the initial motivations might have been.

In any case, while Hitler did perform as highpriest in rallies etc. and had a decided sense of destiny, I think others were the real mystics in the circle, especially Himmler, his Wewelsburg adventures, and the SS ethnological and archeological expeditions seeking the ancient aryan fatherland.

K Frame

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2007, 09:39:13 AM »
I'm getting the impression that perhaps my original comment of "Certainly nothing religious about that" was misunderstood.

That comment was sardonic in nature, certainly not a definitive statement.

But...

"The jews were not the only religous group targeted. The aryan believers had a particular loathing for Christians as well."

That is true, but it shows a marked misunderstanding of the nature of the situation in Germany.

Jews were the only religous group targeted as a whole, as I've noted. Methodists were not required to wear red W's on their clothes, not prohibited from owning property, were not prohibited from marrying into other religious groups, or even marrying believers in the Aryan mythos if they so wished.

Repression of other religious groups came only as a means of repressing those who spoke out against the Nazi movement within Germany -- in those instances the Nazis were targeting INDIVIDUALS, not an entire religion or religious denomination.

The situation with the Jews, though, was totally different. Hitler, in his early days, had many Jewish supporters, especially among those in the business community. They saw his drive to establish a strong Germany, free of the economic strangulations of the Treaty of Versailles, as a means of re-establishing their own economic fortunes. In that sense, they were no different than many others in Germany. But unlike Hitler's Christian supporters, the being a Jew and a supporter of the Nazi movement meant one thing -- a Jew was a Jew, and their time was numbered.

"I consider that plausible, but if anything, it reinforces the general statement that the final solution is a poor example of atheists slaughtering believers. Both christians and nazis qualify as believers slaughtering believers."

You're right, it is a poor example, but it was an example I was not intending to make. I didn't notice where the discussion was limited to general religious strife to that of athiest vs. religious, and that's my fault.


Finally, yes, Mein Kampf was an early work in Hitler's political life. But I think it's rather simplistic to say that sometime between 1922 and 1935 Hitler suddenly had a mystical conversion in which all Christian factors of his life were suddenly, or even slowly, purged from his mindset.

Yes, Hitler performed as a high priest at Aryan rallies. Does that mean, though, that that is proof of his dismissal of Christian influences, or does it mean he was fulfill his role as leader of the Nazi movement?

In the same sense, would his opening the 1936 Berlin Olympics mean that he had transformed into an all around sportsman, or would it simply mean that he was fulfilling his role as leader of Germany?

Hitler was, without a doubt, a politician -- and as politicians are know to do, they bend to meet their audience. In that sense, though, I find that Mein Kampf is even MORE believable as a true light into Hitler's nature because it was written at a time when Hitler was an unknown.

Here's another great quote from Mein Kampf, one that echos the writings of Martin Luther: "....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."

And one final, and very telling, thing that I forgot...

Not long after he won the right to govern as a dictator via the Enabling Decree of 1933, Hitler outlawed athiest organizations. The most obvious target of this action were Communists, who were, by definition, athiests.


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roo_ster

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2007, 09:59:10 AM »
Hitler had nothing but contempt for religion, Christianity & pagan religions included, according to those he worked with.

His references to God & such in his speeches were boob-bait for German Christians, in the same way that John Kerry's tales & photo ops about hunting were boob-bait for hunters.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2007, 10:08:02 AM »
Hitler had nothing but contempt for religion, Christianity & pagan religions included, according to those he worked with.

His references to God & such in his speeches were boob-bait for German Christians, in the same way that John Kerry's tales & photo ops about hunting were boob-bait for hunters.

I think the same could be said for most "religious" conflicts.  If people didn't have religion to use as a hobby-horse, they'd use something else. 
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K Frame

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2007, 10:48:39 AM »
Was Hitler's contempt for religious beliefs, or was it for organized religion?

In reading through sections of Mein Kampf, I really tend to believe that he held some religious beliefs, but was largely anti-organized religion.

There are some important distinctions there, and I think one needs to be careful in the assessment.
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wooderson

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2007, 11:05:53 AM »
1. No. As every poll indicates, this country would not elect an atheist candidate. (This depsite the fact that, it seems, secular hooomanists are on the verge of destroying God and stuff. Huh.)

2. I am an atheist, so sure. Don't particularly care what religious beliefs one holds, though - only how they impact policy. Dubya being a Christian doesn't matter. Dubya believing Genesis was real matters.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2007, 11:41:33 AM »
Quote
Dubya believing Genesis was real matters.
  How would that matter? 
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wooderson

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2007, 11:53:11 AM »
Because it tells me about his attitude toward science and reason (evolution, for instance).
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roo_ster

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2007, 12:51:49 PM »
Yep, it would be the difference between believing in spontaneous generation all by its lonesome (evolution) and believing in spontaneous generation with an agent (Genesis).

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wooderson

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2007, 12:56:21 PM »
Abiogenesis isn't actually spontaneous.
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