Church shooting near Dallas

[cordex]

Ex sheriff, not Hoover.  Running for county commissioner.

Wilson is also a former firearms instructor and reserve sheriff's deputy.  

Around here a reserve deputy is a fully credentialed but volunteer position which doesn't require police academy time but does take a few months of on the job training.  I'd wager that he brought his shooting skills to the job instead of getting them from it.

[Hawkmoon]

Around here a reserve deputy is a fully credentialed but volunteer position which doesn't require police academy time but does take a few months of on the job training.  I'd wager that he brought his shooting skills to the job instead of getting them from it.

My late cousin was a reserve deputy in Arizona. It was an unpaid, volunteer position but he still had to attend police academy and pass the standard POST qualification.

[cordex]

My late cousin was a reserve deputy in Arizona. It was an unpaid, volunteer position but he still had to attend police academy and pass the standard POST qualification.

Yeah, different states have different requirements.  I believe in Texas the position requires TCLEOSE certification which requires passing an exam but not academy time.  There are also local FTO requirements and firearm quals.

Note that many police academies are full-time, multi-month courses - sometimes requiring you to live in academy housing for the duration of the training - which would be prohibitive for most volunteers.

[zxcvbob]

I'm starting to think a crossdraw holster might be best for church; so you can draw while still seated.  Especially with a 4" or 5" service revolver.  Anybody have one?  Cuz I don't and just assume they work that way.

[sumpnz]

Shooter was a 43 year old white guy with arrests for aggravated assault and weapons charges in his past. 

Over/under on how long until Antifa or similar connections come out?

[lee n. field]

Shooter was a 43 year old white guy with arrests for aggravated assault and weapons charges in his past. 

Over/under on how long until Antifa or similar connections come out?

Item I saw this morning said "drifter with local connections". 

[Perd Hapley]

https://thefederalist.com/2019/12/30/joe-biden-attacked-texas-concealed-carry-law-that-prevented-a-massacre-sunday/

2020 Democratic hopeful Joe Biden attacked Abbott for signing this law. He called it “irrational.”

“It is irrational, with all due respect to the Governor of Texas, it’s irrational what they’re doing. … And we’re talking about loosening access to have guns? Being able to take them into places of worship, store them in schools, it’s just absolutely irrational,” Biden said.

When Joe Biden is telling us what's rational...

[Ben]

The coalition to stop gun violence is upset that gun violence was stopped.

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2019/12/30/oh-the-irony-coalition-to-stop-gun-violence-disgusted-by-nras-praise-for-armed-citizen-who-stopped-gun-violence/

[Hawkmoon]

I'm starting to think a crossdraw holster might be best for church; so you can draw while still seated.  Especially with a 4" or 5" service revolver.  Anybody have one?  Cuz I don't and just assume they work that way.

I have a crossdraw holster and a shoulder holster. I usually carry with an OWB belt scabbard at 3:00. Any of them would have been better than behind-the-back, but the crossdraw or shoulder holster are best for draw from a seated position. Especially when the gunman is right in front of you and you need to keep your movements as minimal and covert as possible prior to the actual draw.

[Hawkmoon]

Interview with the armed good guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTzwjW2osqU

[230RN]

I'm starting to think a crossdraw holster might be best for church; so you can draw while still seated.  Especially with a 4" or 5" service revolver.  Anybody have one?  Cuz I don't and just assume they work that way.

I have a crossdraw holster and a shoulder holster. I usually carry with an OWB belt scabbard at 3:00. Any of them would have been better than behind-the-back, but the crossdraw or shoulder holster are best for draw from a seated position. Especially when the gunman is right in front of you and you need to keep your movements as minimal and covert as possible prior to the actual draw.

Pretty much 100% agreement here.  Used crossdraw for many decades.  One disadvantage is crossing the target horizontally, instead of vertically.  Main advantage is the gun is more readily defended from a grab and of course for the seated position, especially while driving.  BTW, almost any strong-hand holster can be used crossdraw unless it's got a severe forward rake.

Terry, 230RN
---------------------------------
Isn't it odd that all those paranoid people from the McCarthy-HUAC era turned out to be right?  There was a Communist Fifth Column after all.

[Hawkmoon]

Here's one that's potentially interesting. It has multiple belt slots on the back, allowing it to be worn in several orientations -- including crossdraw.

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/guide-gear-leather-4-position-holster-1911-models-right-handed?a=2191589

[Perd Hapley]

Used crossdraw for many decades.  One disadvantage is crossing the target horizontally, instead of vertically.  Main advantage is the gun is more readily defended from a grab...

That contradicts what I've always read. I guess I can see the logic of your position, though.

[230RN]

fistful remarked,

That contradicts what I've always read. I guess I can see the logic of your position, though.

Opinions differ.

Assume a right-handed shooter and more or less open carry  --open shirt or vest or whatever, e.g.  My thesis is that a grab from the back is easy with a strong hand holster since the gun's butt is facing the right way for the grabber. But with crossdraw, the gun has to be turned around in his own off hand to be handled properly by the grabber, giving the gun bearer a bit extra time to respond.

With a front grabber, the crossdraw gun butt orientation favors the grabber, but can be fended off by the off-arm, still allowing the bearer to draw from under his defending arm.

That's my thesis, anyway, but theses differ and you place your bets the way you think best.

Another case where theses differ is in my discovery that in ankle carry (yuch, pew, ick), again for a right handed shooter, the holster should be on the inside of the right leg, with the butt facing forward.  This, by actual practice, but it's contrary to conventional theses.  Again, with (yuch, pew, ick) ankle carry, but ankle carry (yuch, pew, ick) is sometimes necessary.

Terry, 230RN

Ankle rig, inside strong side leg, butt forward:

[MillCreek]

I have never yet found an ankle holster that did not end up sliding down around my ankle and foot within a few minutes. Even with the accessory strap up around the calf.

[MechAg94]

The only negative comment I have heard about cross draw is that a person who is up close can move closer and trap your arm against your body preventing you from completing the draw.  Maybe that is assuming too much tactical sense on the part of whoever you are against. 

[Ben]

The only negative comment I have heard about cross draw is that a person who is up close can move closer and trap your arm against your body preventing you from completing the draw.  Maybe that is assuming too much tactical sense on the part of whoever you are against. 

That and the sweeping are about all I've ever heard either. I forget the technical term for the move, but in defensive pistol you practice drawing from your 3-4 o'clock holster and keeping your arm tight against your body with the gun just above holster height (kind of a 90 with your shooting arm) and start pulling the trigger, which is supposed to be a means of defending against the close-in attack. Surprisingly accurate. When I practice it a couple of feet from the target, it's a pretty small grouping of bullets.  I can see where the crossdraw would prevent that because of the extra movement.

Otherwise, I've only ever carried my .45LC Vaquero in a crossdraw, but (safely) playing around, it's actually a pretty fast draw.

I'd be interested in hearing Fly320's input, given some of the instructors he's worked with and what they say.

[Fly320s]

That and the sweeping are about all I've ever heard either. I forget the technical term for the move, but in defensive pistol you practice drawing from your 3-4 o'clock holster and keeping your arm tight against your body with the gun just above holster height (kind of a 90 with your shooting arm) and start pulling the trigger, which is supposed to be a means of defending against the close-in attack. Surprisingly accurate. When I practice it a couple of feet from the target, it's a pretty small grouping of bullets.  I can see where the crossdraw would prevent that because of the extra movement.

Otherwise, I've only ever carried my .45LC Vaquero in a crossdraw, but (safely) playing around, it's actually a pretty fast draw.

I'd be interested in hearing Fly320's input, given some of the instructors he's worked with and what they say.

First part is called a speed rock, or in today's tacticool speak, shooting from retention.  One hand on the gun, other hand defending with a block or whatever.  It is used for near-contact distance shooting.  It is very quick and the gun can be easily controlled and defended by the shooter. 

As far as gun retention goes, concealment is best.  All the rest are more or less dependent on how good your defense is.  I'm not a fan of butt-forward carry, because that does give the bad guy the leverage advantage in a gun-grabbing fight.  Appendix and strong side are probably the easiest to defend, but I don't know of any data to support that.   I have had a few retention training classes and they all advocate strong-side carry.  That may just be an institutional carry over from police training, though.

Another downside to shoulder holsters and cross draw holsters is that the draw is slower, longer, and has to change 2 directions to get on target.  So does appendix, but it is closer to the body centerline so the directional change is smaller.  Strong side carry has the shortest, easiest, and therefore quickest, drawstroke. 

[sumpnz]

I think this is a good demo of what Fly320s is talking about.

https://youtu.be/oEFPcljAXgs

[T.O.M.]

When I wore a suit every day for work, which involved a lot of time being seated while wearing the suit coat, I chose shoulder rigs for carry.  I didn't need to worry about the handgun being exposed when the suit coat opened standing up or sitting down.  Chairs with arms are comfortable for sitting, but bad for strong side carry.  And, in practice, I could reach for the handgun without being too obvious.  My handgun of choice then was a Glock 19, and the holster was a Galco Jackass. 

Now, granted, it's not as fast as strongside carry.  But it helped me follow Rule #1 of gunfighting (1. Have a gun.) in situations where I could not be openly armed.

[WLJ]

   A shooting in White Settlement is calling attention to its name – again https://t.co/3MUNEnVQvR pic.twitter.com/iL0rUO98dP

    — The Hill (@thehill) December 31, 2019

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1212012808092737540/photo/1

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2019/12/31/is-this-a-joke-the-hill-offers-up-white-hot-take-on-the-fallout-from-white-settlement-shooting/

 

[brimic]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/weekendgunnit/comments/ehmkja/when_he_tried_to_match_the_boomer_with_the_big/

So much kek

[Angel Eyes]

https://babylonbee.com/news/media-disappointed-to-learn-armed-citizen-stopped-mass-shooting

[cordex]

This is probably not going to be popular, but at this stage I'm leaning toward this being a robbery that would likely not have resulted in shooting had the security team not reacted to it.  The bad guy didn't seem like he wanted to shoot until people started drawing down on him and from what has been released the bad guy was upset he had received food from the church but not the money he had requested.  I don't think this was a case of a mass shooting being prevented, but more likely an armed robbery going bad and two good guys dying because of it.

That said, even though it sucks that good guys died when it might have been prevented by rolling over, I think it was the right thing to do to respond with deadly force.  They did the best they could with the information and training they had.

[WLJ]

https://babylonbee.com/news/media-disappointed-to-learn-armed-citizen-stopped-mass-shooting

That's actually closer to reality than it is to satire