COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread

[De Selby]

ORANGEMANBAD must be defeated!

That, combined with an entire ruling class terrified of type I errors (which would mean people die of coronavirus and the ruling class would be blamed for that) and not caring at all about type II errors (which would mean even more people are dying of the reaction to the coronavirus- from lack of medical care, dispair deaths, etc...- where the deaths are far more likely to go under the radar and the ruling class is unlikely to be blamed) we have a MASSIVELY risk averse overclass about one set of risks but completely unconcerned about a different set of risks.

That leads to stupidity like SHUTTING DOWN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY over a disease the appears to be more dangerous than the flu, but not greatly so, and is, in fact, LESS dangerous than the flu for younger people.

Question - if you don’t believe any statistics about the disease, how did you conclude it’s less dangerous than the flu, and therefore that government policy is just conservative?

[Ron]

This is tantamount to saying that rumours and Facebook posts by people you know are better quality info than scientific studies - and even then you acknowledge the first hand narratives say this is a nasty bug.

It’s killed more people by any measure than an average flu test already, there’s good evidence it does serious damage to many more, and the infection rate is whatever else many orders of magnitude higher than SARS or MERS.

I guess you won’t be laughing at articles about Saudi Arabians thinking that pigeons are spies or about other random folk beliefs - those things come from firsthand accounts over any sort of reliance on scientific, peer reviewed and published sources just the same as folk beliefs about COVID.

After all these years your rhetoric hasn't gotten any better, your arguments are always arguments with your own feeble constructs.

The organizations, scientific studies etc you reference have demonstrably lied to us over and over as well as promoted models that were designed to scare the hell out of people, more lies.

The numbers are all lies (death, cases etc), also demonstrably provable.

Now we can discuss just how much they are lying to us. Some here think they are only lying to us a little, others think they are telling us big whoppers. We can discuss why they are lying to us, for our own good or nefarious reasons.

I personally just take the word of liars for what it's worth ... others willingly believe lies.

[De Selby]

After all these years your rhetoric hasn't gotten any better, your arguments are always arguments with your own feeble constructs.

The organizations, scientific studies etc you reference have demonstrably lied to us over and over as well as promoted models that were designed to scare the hell out of people, more lies.

The numbers are all lies (death, cases etc), also demonstrably provable.

Now we can discuss just how much they are lying to us. Some here think they are only lying to us a little, others think they are telling us big whoppers. We can discuss why they are lying to us, for our own good or nefarious reasons.

I personally just take the word of liars for what it's worth ... others willingly believe lies.

How did you come to see that the “institutions” demonstrably lied if there’s no reliable information being reported? Did you decide that the CDC was full of crap based on what your friends sent you on FB? Or by “demonstrably” are you referring to some evidence that was reported which you actually find credible?

Genuinely curious to know - what information was reliable enough to convince you that the CDC and WHO science on COVID is at least partly lies and again, if the numbers are all fake, how’d you get enough of a number to rate COVID compared to flu or to evaluate the regulatory response???

[Pb]

Maybe try articulating a response - how do Governments benefit from this?

Most people in the government hate Trump.  This virus crises has been a spectacularly effective way of tanking his approval. 

Who knows if this is their primary motivation for terrifying the entire country or just happy accident?

[230RN]

Deleted as off-topic.

[zxcvbob]

I can never tell if you are trying to be sarcastic or if you are trolling or if you are really just that *expletive deleted*ing stupid and arrogant.

Even if he's trolling, the first question is a good one.  Don't fully trust anybody, even if they are saying what you want to hear.

"Everybody lies" -- Dr. House

[Ron]

How did you come to see that the “institutions” demonstrably lied if there’s no reliable information being reported? Did you decide that the CDC was full of crap based on what your friends sent you on FB? Or by “demonstrably” are you referring to some evidence that was reported which you actually find credible?

Genuinely curious to know - what information was reliable enough to convince you that the CDC and WHO science on COVID is at least partly lies and again, if the numbers are all fake, how’d you get enough of a number to rate COVID compared to flu or to evaluate the regulatory response???

I listened to the actual people in charge describe what constitutes a reported Covid 19 death. Dying with Covid 19 is coded as dying by Covid 19.

There has also been admission that when they use the word "cases" they no longer mean active infections but positive reaction to the test.

The list can go on and on. How many times to they have to get caught in BS?

The lying weasel Fauci mask off/mask on advice, promoting bad models, puppeting lies from the WHO about airborn transmission.

When the experts are continually changing their tune it is less than confidence inspiring.

When the experts have financial conflict of interests it is less than confidence inspiring.

[TommyGunn]

Is it possible he wasn’t telling the truth, and just doesn’t want to be quarantined?

Reading the debate about COVID is just stunning. It’s killed and left injured a staggering number of people, but there still seems to be a non-fringe debate about whether it’s overblown for some mysterious government/commercial plot.

I can see why traders would want to downplay the severity of the disease to keep revenue coming in from normal commercial activity. I cannot fathom why the Government would want to whip up fear or cripple its own revenues with shut downs.  Nor can I see any sane basis for thinking the CDC is politicising its advice.

Probably because the lockdown has cost 40 million (40,000,000) jobs,  cut the GDP 32.9%  and spiked a serious increase in suicides.  The cost of panicking because THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN!!!! will kill us all so we all have to shut the world down only shifts around the deaths.  
Your own hyperbole is revealing.  "Killed and left injured  a staggering number of people ... "  Wow.   Yes.  Okay,  4 million cases in America,  and 150,000 dead.   About a .5%  mortality rate which is horrible if it's family or friend. Are you a tv news writer?  Is it you that feeds words into the teleprompter the tv talking-head myrmidons mutter?  
Yes,  it's a PANDEMIC.   We had one 100 years ago and did not shut down the economy.  We've had several epidemics since and did not shut down.  We typically quarantined the sick and exposed but kept everyone else going.
If the government isn't "politicizing" advice why is it  repressing hydroxycoquiline?   Many doctors have and are still using it with good effect.  It is not a cure,  it's a treatment,  but the dot gov is SAYING  it's not a cure, as if it's proponents are claiming it is, and trying to prohibit or suppress it's use.


Sorry.  This is a real epidemic;  the covid19 virus really exists and it transmits like a laser.  But this is also one of the most politicized diseases ever,  and if you can't see that,  you are blinder than any bat,  ever.

[makattak]

Question - if you don’t believe any statistics about the disease, how did you conclude it’s less dangerous than the flu, and therefore that government policy is just conservative?

Impressive response, counselor.

Start with a nonsequitor argument made by people other than the interlocutor, AND exaggerate the argument such that I have to take time to try to both correct the mistaken characterization of the argument AND note that I was not the originator of that argument.

It would prevent most people from continuing down their own line of argumentation and get them distracted into the weeds.

NEXT, you also mischaracterize my own words such that when I actually said "is more dangerous than the flu" you state it as "less dangerous than the flu", once again getting my argument bogged down in correcting falsehoods.

THEN, you don't really address my argument at all that the government is causing more deaths and damage by overreaction than are being caused by the virus and dismiss that argument as the government "being conservative."

All in all, impressive obfuscation and misdirection. I'm sure it's very useful in court, but none of it really dealt with my argument that the government is both inept and corrupt.

Also, look at how much time and space I required to address your single sentence. Again, impressive sophisty.

[dogmush]

Ron:

How many people in the US do you think have died from COVID 19 so far?

I agree with you that the admissions that the death with COVID counts as death from COVID throw a very dubious light on just pulling the number off the Johns Hopkins page and running with it.  COVID was definitely politicized, and it seems self evident at this point that the numbers are inflated some places and deflated in some places.

So, genuinely curious, what do you think the number is, and how did you come to that number?  If we are to act as adults and make our own risk management decisions you have to, at some point, believe something.

I would ask, in the spirit of a discussion board, that instead of just repeating that the numbers are BS, offer some other number and compelling evidence why your information is better as the basis for a risk decision.

[charby]

I'm not a human doctor, I don't play one on TV, and I haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn since February. For a living a basically do in field pathology on plants and animals if they were killed or inhibited by particular modes of action from pesticides, wouldn't call me a toxicologist but I can be one if needed.

I have about the same amount of science education that a doctor does have, so I read exactly what hydroxycoquiline is and what it is used for, it's an anti malaria drug (kills/fights parasites not viruses) and is an immunosuppressive (why it works for lupus and arthritis).

I can see where it would be beneficial in the treatment of some cases of Covid-19, where the body's immune system is overreacting to the virus and also killing the body, think blood coming out the eyes, lungs, heart being screwed up, etc.

For the life of me, I can't fathom how an immunosuppressant could be used as a prevention of a viral infection, or even offer a cure in a mild to moderate case.

[K Frame]

"I'm not a human doctor,..."

There's also been legitimate questions about the human part...      

[DittoHead]

For the life of me, I can't fathom how an immunosuppressant could be used as a prevention of a viral infection, or even offer a cure in a mild to moderate case.

Maybe it kills the demon sperm?

[zxcvbob]

I think the doctors calling hydroxycoquiline a cure are quacks, but perhaps they are just using poor terminology.  The ones calling it a treatment might be onto something.  The media and agencies suppressing any discussion of it being a possible treatment are as bad or worse than the quacks.

I don't know how hydroxycoquiline specifically works against malaria parasites (and haven't tried to read anything about it), but it is possible that the same mechanism coincidentally helps against this specific virus.  I read something a month ago about ACE-1 inhibitors, and that's a blood pressure medicine, but if the virus gains entry to cells thru that pathway, sure why not?

[bedlamite]

https://twitter.com/JamesTodaroMD/status/1288694517848211457

[charby]

"I'm not a human doctor,..."

There's also been legitimate questions about the human part...      

Swamp ape?

[Ron]

I don't know how many have died of covid 19, none here do and the government doesn't know either.

It will probably shake out like a real bad flu year or maybe a little worse. If I were to guess.

Considering the extreme efforts they've gone through in inflating the numbers across the board there is no real data to even come up with an accurate number.

For me, the lack of a nationwide standard of what constitutes a covid death tells me they really aren't interested in knowing.

That is useful information in itself.

[MechAg94]

I think the doctors calling hydroxycoquiline a cure are quacks, but perhaps they are just using poor terminology.  The ones calling it a treatment might be onto something.  The media and agencies suppressing any discussion of it being a possible treatment are as bad or worse than the quacks.

I don't know how hydroxycoquiline specifically works against malaria parasites (and haven't tried to read anything about it), but it is possible that the same mechanism coincidentally helps against this specific virus.  I read something a month ago about ACE-1 inhibitors, and that's a blood pressure medicine, but if the virus gains entry to cells thru that pathway, sure why not?

I realize some people mentioned it as a "cure"(not sure who), but my understanding is it was always just a treatment for the symptoms.  The first time I heard about it months ago it was a treatment not a cure.  I don't know why there seems to be this resistance to using it on the left other than "Trump said good things about it so it must be bad".

[Hawkmoon]

I realize some people mentioned it as a "cure"(not sure who), but my understanding is it was always just a treatment for the symptoms.  The first time I heard about it months ago it was a treatment not a cure.  I don't know why there seems to be this resistance to using it on the left other than "Trump said good things about it so it must be bad".

I think it goes beyond that. If it were really and truly ineffective and possibly even counterproductive and/or harmful, you can rest assured that the Democrats would love to have ORANGEMANBAD proclaiming its virtues from the rooftops. The fact that they are trying to hard to portray it in a completely negative light suggests to me that it has potential to be helpful, and the Democrats can't afford to let anything good be associated with Trump.

[bedlamite]

I think it goes beyond that. If it were really and truly ineffective and possibly even counterproductive and/or harmful, you can rest assured that the Democrats would love to have ORANGEMANBAD proclaiming its virtues from the rooftops. The fact that they are trying to hard to portray it in a completely negative light suggests to me that it has potential to be helpful, and the Democrats can't afford to let anything good be associated with Trump.

Yep, there's big money behind it too:

https://twitter.com/JamesTodaroMD/status/1277595471989571585

[De Selby]

Impressive response, counselor.

Start with a nonsequitor argument made by people other than the interlocutor, AND exaggerate the argument such that I have to take time to try to both correct the mistaken characterization of the argument AND note that I was not the originator of that argument.

It would prevent most people from continuing down their own line of argumentation and get them distracted into the weeds.

NEXT, you also mischaracterize my own words such that when I actually said "is more dangerous than the flu" you state it as "less dangerous than the flu", once again getting my argument bogged down in correcting falsehoods.

THEN, you don't really address my argument at all that the government is causing more deaths and damage by overreaction than are being caused by the virus and dismiss that argument as the government "being conservative."

All in all, impressive obfuscation and misdirection. I'm sure it's very useful in court, but none of it really dealt with my argument that the government is both inept and corrupt.

Also, look at how much time and space I required to address your single sentence. Again, impressive sophisty.

Okay - so you think it is more dangerous than the flu. But not for young people.

You just don’t have any statistics you believe that allow you to conclude that? Is your estimation of the danger based on what your mates send you on Facebook, or a data source that you actually believe?

[De Selby]

I don't know how many have died of covid 19, none here do and the government doesn't know either.

It will probably shake out like a real bad flu year or maybe a little worse. If I were to guess.

Considering the extreme efforts they've gone through in inflating the numbers across the board there is no real data to even come up with an accurate number.

For me, the lack of a nationwide standard of what constitutes a covid death tells me they really aren't interested in knowing.

That is useful information in itself.

What’s the basis of your guess about it being like a flu year?

Certainly not medical advice. So what rational/objective source of information leads you to conclude that it’s probable?

[MechAg94]

Yep, there's big money behind it too:

https://twitter.com/JamesTodaroMD/status/1277595471989571585

That is interesting.

[TommyGunn]

I think the doctors calling hydroxycoquiline a cure are quacks, but perhaps they are just using poor terminology.  The ones calling it a treatment might be onto something.  The media and agencies suppressing any discussion of it being a possible treatment are as bad or worse than the quacks.

I don't know how hydroxycoquiline specifically works against malaria parasites (and haven't tried to read anything about it), but it is possible that the same mechanism coincidentally helps against this specific virus.  I read something a month ago about ACE-1 inhibitors, and that's a blood pressure medicine, but if the virus gains entry to cells thru that pathway, sure why not?

I never heard it called a  cure by most doctors who   support it,  just a treatment.     There are diseases that have symptoms that are by themselves fatal,  and if those can be ameliorated,  the odds of survival improve.

I think this hydroxycoquiline is like this.

[dogmush]

I don't know how many have died of covid 19, none here do and the government doesn't know either.

It will probably shake out like a real bad flu year or maybe a little worse. If I were to guess.

Considering the extreme efforts they've gone through in inflating the numbers across the board there is no real data to even come up with an accurate number.

For me, the lack of a nationwide standard of what constitutes a covid death tells me they really aren't interested in knowing.

That is useful information in itself.

Ok.  Let's take that as gospel for the moment.  At least as bad as "a real bad flu year or maybe a little worse". Where I live in FL, which is a "hot spot" right now, there are not a ton of noticeable COVID-19  mandates.  There is a  mask mandate.  There are, I guess, some restaurant rules, although I have had no trouble getting tables in the last two months.  There may end up being school changes next month, but that's not finalized.  Other than dots on the floor for lines (which these nasty MFer's needed before) and masks, there's no real effect on day to day living.  There is an issue with available healthcare due to resources being used on folks sick with COVID, but those resources are being used, not just held back in reserve.


So what's your issue?  Are you seeing something else?  Lockdowns are, as far as I can tell, over.  There are mask mandates, physical distancing requirements,  and.........? That seems to be the US response to COVID-19.   Which you admit is as bad or worse than a "real bad flu year". 

What would you think an appropriate response at this point* would be?

*Given, and I agree, that an appropriate response back in Feb-Mar would have been quarantining sick people and aggressive contact tracing to quarantine possible carriers.  You quarantine sick people, not entire societies.  However for better or worse that ship has sailed and COVID-19 is pretty established in our population.