Author Topic: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread  (Read 440282 times)

dogmush

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7200 on: February 21, 2023, 10:58:53 AM »
I have been reading the scientific and medical literature since age 16, and the legal literature/statutes/regulations/appellate opinions since my early 20's.  If I have learned one thing, when the left/right/center media or social media talk about scientific, medical or legal matters, reading the actual primary source material informs you as to what the media leaves out, gets wrong, or puts their own bias on.

Quoted to add:  "Or what they just make the *expletive deleted*ck up."

MillCreek

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7201 on: February 21, 2023, 11:19:36 AM »
^^^That is when they quote the MSU study: make *expletive deleted*it up.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Nick1911

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7202 on: February 21, 2023, 11:46:23 AM »
I have been reading the scientific and medical literature since age 16, and the legal literature/statutes/regulations/appellate opinions since my early 20's.  If I have learned one thing, when the left/right/center media or social media talk about scientific, medical or legal matters, reading the actual primary source material informs you as to what the media leaves out, gets wrong, or puts their own bias on.

This!

Unfortunately the general population does not have the time, inclination, reading comprehension nor technical background to read primary sources with respect to scientific, medical or legal matters.

MillCreek

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7203 on: February 21, 2023, 12:08:40 PM »
This!

Unfortunately the general population does not have the time, inclination, reading comprehension nor technical background to read primary sources with respect to scientific, medical or legal matters.

And I am the first to admit that some of this stuff is way over my head.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

sumpnz

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7204 on: February 21, 2023, 09:50:23 PM »
And they are still testing whether ivermectin "cures" COVID rather than being a preventative.  That has been commented on as well.  I believe that other drug that Trump was taking in 2020 was believed to be a preventative also. 

Most of the people I heard about who took ivermectin for COVID were prescribed a number of things just included ivermectin.  Makes me curious if there is anything to that.



Regarding horse paste, my understanding is that a) it was touted by proponents as a treatment that helped, but was not a “cure”, and b) it was most effective when taken with zinc and possibly other vitamins/minerals.  Most studies have only been concerned with whether it had direct activity against covid or was in some way a cure, and they looked at it in isolation rather than with zinc/etc supplements.  It’s entirely possible it was a very helpful drug even if it didn’t do those specific things the studies looked for.

Anecdotally, ivermectin seemed to help my wife recover, and also helped my best friend’s sister avoid hospitalization.  Also, the parts of Africa and India where ivermectin is consumed like candy Covid seems to have been far less impactful than other places.  Proof it’s efficacious?  No, but while the plural of anecdote is not data, eventually if gather enough anecdotes, and apply sound analysis to them, you can develop data.

cordex

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7205 on: February 21, 2023, 09:57:38 PM »
Also, the parts of Africa and India where ivermectin is consumed like candy Covid seems to have been far less impactful than other places.  Proof it’s efficacious?  No, but while the plural of anecdote is not data, eventually if gather enough anecdotes, and apply sound analysis to them, you can develop data.
1. There are a lot of differences between Africa/India and the US that are more likely to matter than use of ivermectin. India and Africa have far fewer elderly, far lower rates of obesity, are more likely to be physically active, and are more likely to have regular exposure to the sun which is likely to improve natural vitamin D production.
2. Sound analysis is key. I don’t think sound analysis has been the goal for much COVID research.

Bogie

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7206 on: February 22, 2023, 12:57:14 PM »
The really fun began when someone who had worked for big pharma research, with part of his job editing and proofing data to keep the researchers from stepping on tender parts, noticed that stuff was being left out of the news articles that everyone else in the conversation accepted as gospel. That someone remembers those conversations.
 
Gee...
 
And as for Ivermectin? The initial reports involved prophylactic use - it appears that with small initial concentrations of viral particles that it makes it harder for them to replicate.
 
So, of course, the establishment researchers insisted on treating it as an antiviral in active cases, often late-stage.
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dogmush

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7207 on: February 22, 2023, 01:17:59 PM »

 
And as for Ivermectin? The initial reports involved prophylactic use - it appears that with small initial concentrations of viral particles that it makes it harder for them to replicate.
 

Do you still have those reports/studies?  The only confirmed positive think in Ivermectin I remember was a promising in vitro study that had stupidly sky high dosages to stop replication.  I don't remember any repeatable positive outcomes in actual patients.

Ben

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cordex

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7209 on: February 22, 2023, 01:32:47 PM »
Do you still have those reports/studies?  The only confirmed positive think in Ivermectin I remember was a promising in vitro study that had stupidly sky high dosages to stop replication.  I don't remember any repeatable positive outcomes in actual patients.
There are a variety of studies (positive and negative) that can be sorted through at the site below.  Many of the studies are underpowered, but combined the results might be interesting.
https://c19ivm.org/meta.html

I'm still not sold on ivermectin, but there has clearly been significant top-down bias to convince people it didn't and couldn't work - and was unsafe to boot - well before there were any studies showing anything.

It seems that we are expected to take some things on faith, and others require exhaustive scientific proof.

MillCreek

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7210 on: February 22, 2023, 01:38:39 PM »
^^^That is a really well said quote from the NYT, of all places.
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Perd Hapley

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7211 on: February 22, 2023, 04:46:18 PM »
New York Times:



https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2023/02/22/christina-pushaw-wonders-when-gov-desantis-gets-his-apology-after-these-media-pivots-on-thescience/

I think DeSantis will get his apology right after the media apologizes for saying that Trump advised people to inject bleach, and drink fish tank cleaner.
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cordex

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7212 on: February 23, 2023, 11:26:20 AM »
This just in: Cochrane analysis of masks and handwashing on respiratory viruses:

https://www.cochrane.org/CD006207/ARI_do-physical-measures-such-hand-washing-or-wearing-masks-stop-or-slow-down-spread-respiratory-viruses

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full
I guess this is not so much "this just in" after all.  A version of this review was complete at the beginning of the pandemic.

An earlier version of this report (which has had versions published since 2007) was originally slated to be published in the spring of 2020, but they waited to publish it until November of 2020.  Once published it was broadly censored by social media as misinformation.  Now, to be fair, the 2020 review didn't have any studies specifically related to COVID19, but by the same token there were no studies which supported masking in reaction to COVID19.  That is dishonest, and severely damaging to trust.

I'm not convinced that these studies are perfect, but yet again we have a case where the government mandated something without any supporting studies, claimed The Science as the source of their doctrine, and teamed up with big companies to enforce adherence to their mandate through calling any contradictory messaging misinformation - even if it is a Cochrane Review of studies. 

This is not a question either of 20/20 hindsight or learning things that contradicted earlier studies.  Earlier studies did not support the things that were mandated, but that didn't stop there being an unscientific "medical consensus" about the efficacy of masks.

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/information#versionTable

MillCreek

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7213 on: February 23, 2023, 12:52:27 PM »
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

cordex

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7214 on: February 23, 2023, 01:42:25 PM »
^^^Partially addressing and agreeing with some of the very points made by Cordex:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2023/2/22/23609499/masks-covid-coronavirus-cochrane-review-pandemic-science-studies-infection
That's a pretty biased article.  It's from Vox so no surprise, but still.

Intuitively I'd expect mask wearing to work and I did so from very early in the pandemic as a precaution specifically for my pregnant wife and our baby.  Intuition, however, is not science.  The mandates and the censorship of claimed disinformation/misinformation/malinformation were based strictly on the intuition of authorities but were repeatedly and falsely represented as being what The Science said.  That would have been a problem if masks were found to have been very effective, much less barely detectible improvements.

I've looked at the Bangladesh and Danish studies that the Vox article  and neither clearly indicates that masks were effective at preventing COVID19 infection for the wearer.  At best they showed overall a tiny, marginal improvement that fell within the margin of error of the experiments.

While I agree with the author of the Vox article that Tom Jefferson has overstated his case, I note they didn't even try to point out the years of overstated case in favor of masks.  This is a log in the eye situation.

sumpnz

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7215 on: February 23, 2023, 01:57:47 PM »
If they had come out and said “masks help reduce transmission by those that are sick.  Please stay home if sick but if you must go out wear a mask” compliance would have been very high and few if any people would have opposed. 

The fiction was that masking healthy people, and especially children, would be beneficial.  It’s obvious to anyone intellectually honest that masking healthy people was nearly useless and whatever very marginal benefit was derived, if any, would be more than entirely eliminated by the costs to psychological health, and other factors.

MillCreek

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7216 on: February 23, 2023, 03:18:26 PM »
^^^I have heard our county health department folks say that one reason why further mask mandates have not been imposed by government fiat is the fear that such mandates will be widely ignored.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Perd Hapley

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7217 on: February 23, 2023, 05:24:04 PM »
If they had come out and said “masks help reduce transmission by those that are sick.  Please stay home if sick but if you must go out wear a mask” compliance would have been very high and few if any people would have opposed. 

The fiction was that masking healthy people, and especially children, would be beneficial.  It’s obvious to anyone intellectually honest that masking healthy people was nearly useless and whatever very marginal benefit was derived, if any, would be more than entirely eliminated by the costs to psychological health, and other factors.

Vilifying (or in Canada, shooting) people who chose not to wear masks was another aspect of the problem. It's one thing to say, "this helps;" it's another thing to say; "not doing this hurts people, and you're a monster."
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Ben

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7218 on: February 23, 2023, 05:50:51 PM »
Vilifying (or in Canada, shooting) people who chose not to wear masks was another aspect of the problem. It's one thing to say, "this helps;" it's another thing to say; "not doing this hurts people, and you're a monster."

The sheer number of people who lost jobs and whose lives were completely destroyed over a stupid paper mask is why when they say, "Oops, our bad. Just forgive us." I happily tell them to go to hell.

As you say, encouragement is much different than force. Masks were literally a false religion for a LARGE segment of society.

https://youtu.be/3iV8X8ubGCc
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Ron

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7219 on: February 23, 2023, 07:51:25 PM »
The science was always clear that masks do not block viral transmission.

We argued here about this very early on in the pandemic.

The majority rejected the established science on the subject and followed the current "experts" and authorities instead.

I was absolutely convinced that masks were for the most part worthless. Yet, I still experienced anxiety and doubts when in public. The gaslighting on the subject was immense. It was a full blown psychological operation being run through every government institution and the overwhelming majority of corporate institutions.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 08:11:06 PM by Ron »
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cordex

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7220 on: February 23, 2023, 08:26:02 PM »
… why when they say, "Oops, our bad. Just forgive us." I happily tell them to go to hell.
I don’t see very many people even saying “our bad”.  Most come up with excuses as to why it was the best idea at the time, or how it didn’t do any harm, etc.

sumpnz

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7221 on: February 23, 2023, 09:00:49 PM »
I don’t see very many people even saying “our bad”.  Most come up with excuses as to why it was the best idea at the time, or how it didn’t do any harm, etc.

It did massive harm, especially to children.  The younger the kid the worse masking was for them.

MillCreek

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7222 on: February 24, 2023, 09:04:06 AM »
A study published this week on invermectin as treatment, not prophylaxis.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2801827

Key Points
Question  Does ivermectin, with a maximum targeted dose of 600 μg/kg daily for 6 days, compared with placebo, shorten symptom duration among adult (≥30 years) outpatients with symptomatic mild to moderate COVID-19?

Findings  In this double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled platform trial including 1206 US adults with COVID-19 during February 2022 to July 2022, the median time to sustained recovery was 11 days in the ivermectin group and 11 days in the placebo group. In this largely vaccinated (84%) population, the posterior probability that ivermectin reduced symptom duration by more than 1 day was less than 0.1%.

Meaning  These findings do not support the use of ivermectin among outpatients with COVID-19.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7223 on: February 24, 2023, 10:09:12 AM »
Now tell us who paid for the study.
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MillCreek

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Re: COVID-19/corona virus mega thread/prepping thread
« Reply #7224 on: February 24, 2023, 10:24:23 AM »
Now tell us who paid for the study.

At the very bottom of the article, right under the conflict of interest disclosures.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.