Author Topic: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID (Read 14964 times)

TommyGunn · « **Reply #100 on:** May 15, 2020, 11:48:29 PM »

Quote from: MillCreek on May 15, 2020, 07:50:19 PM

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/sailors-on-sidelined-carrier-get-virus-for-second-time/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=owned_echobox_f&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1mEtY9QKfF8tSeM4r90v9qotfqJDNejf2ywfRzijgRUmJoCX_-ccvoWkQ#Echobox=1589570244

Some sailors on the carrier get the virus a second time. And you would like to think that getting it once confers some sort of immunity. Maybe not so much.

Possibly some error in testing. One of the tests is purportedly giving false positives and false negatives. Or what fistful said, a second round of symptoms.

One report I heard said Australia is now entering autumn in the southern hemisphere and so far, no spike in covid 19 infections is occuring.

zxcvbob · « **Reply #101 on:** May 15, 2020, 11:49:38 PM »

I would be very surprised if the virus didn't confer immunity, but the immunity might be short-lived. (but still measured in years, not weeks) The so-called reinfections were most likely just relapses.

Ben · « **Reply #102 on:** May 16, 2020, 09:02:50 AM »

Quote from: zxcvbob on May 15, 2020, 11:49:38 PM

I would be very surprised if the virus didn't confer immunity, but the immunity might be short-lived. (but still measured in years, not weeks) The so-called reinfections were most likely just relapses.

The common cold is a virus(s). I've had lots of colds over my life, and more than once had a cold, felt better for a few days, then had a relapse. I'm not sure why the MSM and others think we're going to discover a miracle cure ala Star Trek TNG and no one will ever get the beer virus ever again.

RocketMan · « **Reply #103 on:** May 16, 2020, 09:44:00 AM »

Quote from: Ben on May 16, 2020, 09:02:50 AM

The common cold is a virus(s). I've had lots of colds over my life, and more than once had a cold, felt better for a few days, then had a relapse. I'm not sure why the MSM and others think we're going to discover a miracle cure ala Star Trek TNG and no one will ever get the beer virus ever again.

I've read estimates that there are well over a hundred different viruses that can cause the common cold. If true, then it seems each cold you suffer is likely caused by a different virus, at least until such time that any immunity from previous infections fades.

TommyGunn · « **Reply #104 on:** May 16, 2020, 10:41:29 AM »

Quote from: Ben on May 16, 2020, 09:02:50 AM

The common cold is a virus(s). I've had lots of colds over my life, and more than once had a cold, felt better for a few days, then had a relapse. I'm not sure why the MSM and others think we're going to discover a miracle cure ala Star Trek TNG and no one will ever get the beer virus ever again.

Depends. People do get flu shots every year, although admittedly they're not 100 per cent effective. They may ameliorate the symptoms even if they don't prevent the disease. You can be immunized however, and still transmit the disease, which is why herd immunity is important.

I think there has actually been one (1) virus that we have actually cured, but I don't recall the details. There are very many viruses around we don't even have vaccines for -- yet another reason for herd immunity.

Therepuetics are possible. We have those. Fish tank cleaner is not one of them.

Ben · « **Reply #105 on:** May 16, 2020, 10:55:17 AM »

Quote from: TommyGunn on May 16, 2020, 10:41:29 AM

Depends. People do get flu shots every year, although admittedly they're not 100 per cent effective.

And that's a point the MSM and others don't seem to consider. They seem to think there will be a *cure* or something. Flu shots help with the flu, no doubt, but an 80 year old can still get the flu shot, have a milder case of the flu because of it, but still die from pneumonia complications from the milder flu symptoms.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #106 on:** June 19, 2020, 07:57:18 PM »

Bringing this one back for an update:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/navy-won-e2-80-99t-reinstate-carrier-captain-fired-after-virus-outbreak/ar-BB15IYYo

Captain Crozier is being "fired." Not kicked out of the Navy, not demoted, but he won't get another command assignment. So from now on he'll be driving a desk. My guess is that, at this point, he'll just retire.

The only bright light in this, from my perspective, is that the admiral he reported to (the task force commander) is also being shelved, and won't get his promotion. That's small consolation. We'll probably never know what really happened between them but my guess is that Captain Crozier tried to convince the Admiral that they had a problem, and the admiral blew him off. That's the only logical explanation for a career officer like Crozier to have gone off the reservation as he did.

Quote

“When the COVID-19 pandemic was beginning to take hold, there was no formal training in place and the military was responding – like the rest of the world – without clearly defined safety precautions,” Senators Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut and Chris Van Hollen of Maryland said in a statement. “The Navy’s decision now seems to apply a retroactive standard and after-the-fact procedures and practices to justify Captain Crozier’s firing.”

Mark this day on your calendars. This is the first time I have ever agreed with anything Dick Blumenthal has said (and it will probably also be the last).

MechAg94 · « **Reply #107 on:** June 19, 2020, 10:49:46 PM »

From everything I heard at the time, most every military person agreed he would lose his job for jumping the chain of command. At least he isn't getting further punishment.

BobR · « **Reply #108 on:** June 19, 2020, 11:38:16 PM »

Quote from: MechAg94 on June 19, 2020, 10:49:46 PM

From everything I heard at the time, most every military person agreed he would lose his job for jumping the chain of command. At least he isn't getting further punishment.

That was my feelings then and now.

bob

kgbsquirrel · « **Reply #109 on:** June 20, 2020, 01:52:02 AM »

Quote from: MechAg94 on June 19, 2020, 10:49:46 PM

From everything I heard at the time, most every military person agreed he would lose his job for jumping the chain of command. At least he isn't getting further punishment.

Doesn't make it right, just prevalent.

French G. · « **Reply #110 on:** June 20, 2020, 08:00:03 PM »

Even if it was wrong it got Modly too, so score it as a win. And it wasn't wrong.

kgbsquirrel · « **Reply #111 on:** June 20, 2020, 10:10:27 PM »

Quote from: French G. on June 20, 2020, 08:00:03 PM

Even if it was wrong it got Modly too, so score it as a win. And it wasn't wrong.

When you coc is being utter *expletive deleted*it to the tune of setting you up to fail (port call during an epidemic) and then ignoring the situation they created all at the cost of actual lives you either accept the malfeasance and thus become complicit in it or you go around them. The skipper went around him. The admiral was wrong, not the skipper. Firing the skipper is unjust and the excuse for it, "because we always do it that way" is a myopic, ignorant, and lazy. Retro-re-"not"-firing him again after all has come out is just tripling down on stupid.

dogmush · « **Reply #112 on:** June 21, 2020, 03:30:39 PM »

It wasn't the going around that got him fired, it was the going around to God and everyone in an email blast that he knew was likely to get leaked. Go to the next admiral in the chain, or two up. Not 30 people spread from JBPHH to Washington.

Quote from: French G.

Even if it was wrong it got Modly too, so score it as a win. And it wasn't wrong.

Gotta agree with French G.

Phantom Warrior · « **Reply #113 on:** June 21, 2020, 04:36:36 PM »

Quote from: dogmush on June 21, 2020, 03:30:39 PM

It wasn't the going around that got him fired, it was the going around to God and everyone in an email blast that he knew was likely to get leaked. Go to the next admiral in the chain, or two up. Not 30 people spread from JBPHH to Washington.

I asked a smart retired Army Colonel I know for his opinion on this. He agreed the CAPT Crozier had his heart in the right place. But he disagreed with blasting out an email to numerous recipients on an unclassified system that is almost bound to leak. As he put it..."Except he should have stuck to [classified email]... it's a Commander's friend on subjects like this one IMO."

kgbsquirrel · « **Reply #114 on:** June 21, 2020, 05:45:14 PM »

Quote from: dogmush on June 21, 2020, 03:30:39 PM

It wasn't the going around that got him fired, it was the going around to God and everyone in an email blast that he knew was likely to get leaked. Go to the next admiral in the chain, or two up. Not 30 people spread from JBPHH to Washington.

Gotta agree with French G.

Except he didn't. He wasn't the clown that leaked it to the press. Odds say that is most likely the shitbird admiral in order to muddy the waters and cover his own ass by burning his subordinate. But we actually don't know for sure.

zxcvbob · « **Reply #115 on:** June 21, 2020, 08:55:20 PM »

Quote from: kgbsquirrel on June 21, 2020, 05:45:14 PM

Except he didn't. He wasn't the clown that leaked it to the press. Odds say that is most likely the shitbird admiral in order to muddy the waters and cover his own ass by burning his subordinate. But we actually don't know for sure.

He didn't leak it to the press, and it might have been the shitbird who did. But he sent it to 30 people, allegedly on an unsecure channel. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have 30 people in his immediate up-chain. (in my huge company there are about 6 people between me and the top, and I think that's too many) I can see bypassing his admiral and sending it to the admiral's boss (whoever that is) and copying, his boss, Sec of Navy, and maybe 2 or 3 others -- on a secure comm line. What he did might have ultimately been the right thing even if it violated protocol, I don't know, but that comes with a price.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #116 on:** June 21, 2020, 09:26:56 PM »

Quote from: dogmush on June 21, 2020, 03:30:39 PM

It wasn't the going around that got him fired, it was the going around to God and everyone in an email blast that he knew was likely to get leaked. Go to the next admiral in the chain, or two up. Not 30 people spread from JBPHH to Washington.

From the article:

Quote

Gilday said the investigation showed Crozier didn’t intend for the memo to leak, ...

That suggests your supposition that the Captain knew the e-mail was likely to be leaked is incorrect.

Andiron · « **Reply #117 on:** June 21, 2020, 09:40:08 PM »

Quote from: Hawkmoon on June 21, 2020, 09:26:56 PM

From the article:

That suggests your supposition that the Captain knew the e-mail was likely to be leaked is incorrect.

If you think an email blasted to 30+ recipients was going to stay under wraps I've got a bridge to sell you.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #118 on:** June 21, 2020, 11:24:32 PM »

Does anyone know if the information was officially classified?

French G. · « **Reply #119 on:** June 21, 2020, 11:34:25 PM »

I said it before, every time I deployed on the TR, somebody died. If you don't have the balls to know that going in as a CO in what is pretty much our only non-nuclear strategic deterrence mission then don't be in charge. One person died. My age.

Being at sea in the age of the internet, even seaman Timmy knows what you don't do on e-mail. Doesn't mean he won't do it, but they have a giant kill switch on the satlink. And boy do they not like the occasional wanna be cool kid with an Iridium phone.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #120 on:** June 21, 2020, 11:45:03 PM »

Anyway, the important thing is this got blamed on Trump. Isn't that what matters?

just Warren · « **Reply #121 on:** June 22, 2020, 12:15:06 AM »

Quote from: French G. on June 21, 2020, 11:34:25 PM

I said it before, every time I deployed on the TR, somebody died. If you don't have the balls to know that going in as a CO in what is pretty much our only non-nuclear strategic deterrence mission then don't be in charge. One person died. My age.

Being at sea in the age of the internet, even seaman Timmy knows what you don't do on e-mail. Doesn't mean he won't do it, but they have a giant kill switch on the satlink. And boy do they not like the occasional wanna be cool kid with an Iridium phone.

Wouldn't it be an anomaly, if, given the size of the crew and the length of deployment, no one died?

kgbsquirrel · « **Reply #122 on:** June 22, 2020, 12:25:53 AM »

Quote from: zxcvbob on June 21, 2020, 08:55:20 PM

He didn't leak it to the press, and it might have been the shitbird who did. But he sent it to 30 people, allegedly on an unsecure channel. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have 30 people in his immediate up-chain. (in my huge company there are about 6 people between me and the top, and I think that's too many) I can see bypassing his admiral and sending it to the admiral's boss (whoever that is) and copying, his boss, Sec of Navy, and maybe 2 or 3 others -- on a secure comm line. What he did might have ultimately been the right thing even if it violated protocol, I don't know, but that comes with a price.

Insecure is irrelevant if it isn't classified. He used the Navy's own email system. Note the navy is very publicly stating he will not be officially punished as he did nothing wrong; just unofficially punished with his career blackballed, UCMJ be damned. Based on their sudden hands off stance I am fairly confident that had they tried anything official he would have demanded a CM and been acquitted while burning down one or more admirals in the process.

P.S.: there's plenty of people that he would righteously be CC'ing. The legal weasels on board for example to make sure he is CYA'd. The Admirals staff. The Admirals legal weasels. The XO. The air Boss. Any and all divO's. Again we don't know who, but there's assumptions aplenty that it includes "the wrong people." Why?

BobR · « **Reply #123 on:** June 23, 2020, 03:26:06 PM »

The more you know....

Quote

“Had I known then what I know now, I would have called for his removal,” the CNO said of the captain.

Gilday said that before Crozier sent the email, the captain already failed in his primary job: to keep his crew safe. He said the CO moved too slowly to quarantine sailors while they were at sea and evacuate sailors upon reaching Guam, describing the carrier’s command team as in “almost paralysis.” He said that soon after Crozier requested 1,000 beds ashore, Naval Base Guam and the local government and hotel industry made some 2,400 beds available — yet Crozier failed to make and execute a plan to swiftly move sailors.

“I was not impressed by the slow egress off the ship,” nor by Crozier’s decision to lift quarantine in the aft section of the ship, Gilday said. These and other decisions by the CO put the crew’s “comfort before safety,” he said.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2020/06/navy-punish-fired-uss-roosevelt-captain/166300/?oref=defense_one_breaking_nl&fbclid=IwAR2WV9cahZe_SM7G2i4zOvveOcWv_ro442B403qkfGYYgYFYNRxCKisgpNo

Of course now the Politicians will get involved where they should just stay away.

bob

MechAg94 · « **Reply #124 on:** June 23, 2020, 04:04:48 PM »

Quote from: kgbsquirrel on June 22, 2020, 12:25:53 AM

Insecure is irrelevant if it isn't classified. He used the Navy's own email system. Note the navy is very publicly stating he will not be officially punished as he did nothing wrong; just unofficially punished with his career blackballed, UCMJ be damned. Based on their sudden hands off stance I am fairly confident that had they tried anything official he would have demanded a CM and been acquitted while burning down one or more admirals in the process.

P.S.: there's plenty of people that he would righteously be CC'ing. The legal weasels on board for example to make sure he is CYA'd. The Admirals staff. The Admirals legal weasels. The XO. The air Boss. Any and all divO's. Again we don't know who, but there's assumptions aplenty that it includes "the wrong people." Why?

That is a good point on the number of people involved. Until we know who, assuming he copied extra people to insure it leaked may be a stretch. It seems the Navy brass are the ones that made that accusation. Did he make statements confirming that?

The Navy brass assumed he did it deliberately or so it appears. If true, and given he was a career officer and made it to Captain of a carrier, someone above him must have really pissed him off to force an action like that. Really makes me curious about the details we are not being told.

News:

Author Topic: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID (Read 14964 times)