Author Topic: cops arrest sheriff (NM )  (Read 1501 times)

gunsmith

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MechAg94

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2020, 02:18:00 PM »
Something you don't see every day. 

Not knowing anything else, looks like the Sheriff earned it.  But it doesn't mean he will be convicted of anything serious.
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Jim147

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2020, 07:05:29 PM »
Do you know who I am?
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And sometimes goes on and on and on.

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HankB

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2020, 08:08:47 PM »
Didn't watch the (lengthy) videos, but the first link in the OP says he was arrested and charged because he wouldn't unlock his cell phone.

Haven't there been court decisions stating you don't HAVE to provide passwords to unlock phones, computers, etc., since you still have the right to invoke your 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination?
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Andiron

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2020, 09:07:04 PM »
I'm almost through the 3rd vid.  I don't have context for what's going on,  but it starts with the Sheriff showing up allegedly hammered to a scene and being a dick.  That sets the tone for the rest.  Personally,  I have a serious problem with ANY PD that rolls around looking like Call of Duty characters. Neck tattoos and all.

 Gonna finish this vid and the next.
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Andiron

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2020, 10:24:08 PM »
Saw the rest.

Based on presentation alone,  the Sheriff seems like a dick that had whatever they were trying to pin on him coming,  and did his very best via the "Thin blue line" and good ol' boys system to avoid it.

I could be completely wrong, but that's my takeaway from all the footage.
"Leftism destroys everything good." -  Ron

There is no fixing stupid. But, you can line it up in front of a wall and offer it a last smoke.

There is no such thing as a "transgender" person.  Only mental illness that should be discouraged.

gunsmith

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2020, 03:28:02 AM »
Saw the rest.

Based on presentation alone,  the Sheriff seems like a dick that had whatever they were trying to pin on him coming,  and did his very best via the "Thin blue line" and good ol' boys system to avoid it.

I could be completely wrong, but that's my takeaway from all the footage.

YEAH, pretty boring stuff but interesting.
i like how a couple of them talking among themselves that its going to be a big news story, i see nothing anywhere, not a nationalstory at all
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

MechAg94

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2020, 01:29:06 PM »
Didn't watch the (lengthy) videos, but the first link in the OP says he was arrested and charged because he wouldn't unlock his cell phone.

Haven't there been court decisions stating you don't HAVE to provide passwords to unlock phones, computers, etc., since you still have the right to invoke your 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination?
It said they had a warrant to search his cell phone.  Can they force him to do it if they have a valid court order?  I thought the past court decisions were in cases where the cops wanted to search the cell phone without a warrant.  Maybe I misremember.  

Quote
It was a chaotic scene at the Rio Arriba County Sheriff’s Office. With the help of the Taos County Sheriff’s Office, Española Police, once again, went to serve Sheriff James Lujan with a search warrant for his cell phone.

Police say Lujan’s phone could have evidence of him interfering with criminal cases involving Española City Councilor John Vigil, and a man with a long criminal record, Phillip Chacon. Video shows officers got a hold of Lujan’s phone, but even after Lujan handed it over, police still needed him to unlock it.
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dogmush

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2020, 01:37:00 PM »
There is some case law on the subject, but I don't remember the details.  I know that there was at least one ruling that you can be forced to provide biometrics to unlock it if it's fingerprint locked.

The argument made is that if they have a warrant for a safe, you have to let them in the safe, which is true, but you don't have to help them in the safe, they can just destroy it opening it if you don't.  Of course with data encryption it's more philosophical whether or not the data even exists before it's decrypted.

Being the anti government guy I am, if someone served me a warrant for my phone, I'd turn it off and hand it to them.  It's not my fault if they aren't smart enough to get data off it.

dogmush

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2020, 08:51:09 PM »
This video lays the whole thing out in a more easily digestible fashion.

That Sheriff's department is not looking good.  The whole department.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzRvaFAKuuk

Brad Johnson

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2020, 11:20:52 AM »
There is some case law on the subject, but I don't remember the details.  I know that there was at least one ruling that you can be forced to provide biometrics to unlock it if it's fingerprint locked.

The argument made is that if they have a warrant for a safe, you have to let them in the safe, which is true, but you don't have to help them in the safe, they can just destroy it opening it if you don't.  Of course with data encryption it's more philosophical whether or not the data even exists before it's decrypted.

Being the anti government guy I am, if someone served me a warrant for my phone, I'd turn it off and hand it to them.  It's not my fault if they aren't smart enough to get data off it.

Lehto's Law: Search Warrant Required to See Phone's Lock Screen - Ep. 6.502

https://youtu.be/1K_A0p3ORyE

BRad
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 03:26:48 PM by Brad Johnson »
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Hawkmoon

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2020, 01:46:21 PM »
Lehto's Law: Search Warrant Required to See Phone's Lock Screen - Ep. 6.502

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K_A0p3ORyE&t=356s


To save others the same confusion I experienced -- Brad's link starts near the end of the video, so you have to already know what case Steve is talking about. I suggest going back and starting at the beginning.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2020, 01:46:48 PM »
delete - double tap
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2020, 01:54:33 PM »
Didn't watch the (lengthy) videos, but the first link in the OP says he was arrested and charged because he wouldn't unlock his cell phone.

Haven't there been court decisions stating you don't HAVE to provide passwords to unlock phones, computers, etc., since you still have the right to invoke your 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination?

I think it would pivot on whether the phone in question was a personal phone, or a work-provided one.  If work-provided, it belongs to the taxpayers and subject to compliance for any audit/investigation purposes.

If it's his phone though, there's no reasonable expectation of access to that property or information by government.  No moral claim to access it.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2020, 02:03:54 PM »
This whole encryption/warrant issue makes me ponder:

Imagine you killed someone.  Shot them dead with a pistol.  Questionable/bad shooting.  You get charged, you make bail.  The State is building charges against you, but they don't have the murder weapon.

You know where you put the pistol.  The prosecution doesn't.  They have a warrant for your home, vehicle, workplace, etc.  Search comes up empty.

They don't have a warrant for your HEAD.  For your information.

Is it destruction of evidence if you don't tell them where the pistol is?  Is it a crime to not tell where the pistol is?  Compelling to tell where it is, is involuntary testimony against self.



Or even a step further.  You have a safe full of firearms.  You send one off to a gunsmith for some work.  You are somehow associated with a crime you didn't commit.  The police have a warrant for all your firearms.  They come and empty out your safe.  They're testing them against the crime scene in question.  Weeks/months go on.  Your gunsmith notifies you that your pistol is done with work.  Are you compelled to tell the police about this firearm?  It's certainly not in your best interest, and it's information in your head.  Compelling this information is basically testimony against self.


I see it no different than a decryption mechanism.
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MechAg94

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2020, 02:12:51 PM »
I think it would pivot on whether the phone in question was a personal phone, or a work-provided one.  If work-provided, it belongs to the taxpayers and subject to compliance for any audit/investigation purposes.

If it's his phone though, there's no reasonable expectation of access to that property or information by government.  No moral claim to access it.
What if it was a personal phone, but he gets reimbursed for the work use?  I think that is less common than it used to be.
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MillCreek

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2020, 02:21:11 PM »
What if it was a personal phone, but he gets reimbursed for the work use?  I think that is less common than it used to be.

Or it is his personal phone, and he also uses it for work to make calls, send/receive emails, etc without reimbursement.  I use my personal phone for work and as a condition of doing so, my employer reserves the right to wipe my phone remotely if it is ever stolen or lost.  This is because there is patient PHI on it (via emails), and HIPAA compels us to have a tight leash on any portable devices with PHI on it. My phone could also be subject to subpoena for discovery in a civil case for anything in a malpractice case not protected by attorney-client privilege.  I do not, however, lie awake at night worrying about any of this.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2020, 03:25:49 PM »
To save others the same confusion I experienced -- Brad's link starts near the end of the video, so you have to already know what case Steve is talking about. I suggest going back and starting at the beginning.

Ooops, my bad. Link corrected. Starts at the beginning now.

Brad
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dogmush

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2020, 03:31:51 PM »
Watch the video I posted.  Turns out he was arrested because the warrant was for the phone he used to communicate with the suspect during the stand off, and he gave them two different phones, but not the one in the warrant.  So he was arrested for not complying with the warrant.

Quote
Or even a step further.  You have a safe full of firearms.  You send one off to a gunsmith for some work.  You are somehow associated with a crime you didn't commit.  The police have a warrant for all your firearms.  They come and empty out your safe.  They're testing them against the crime scene in question.  Weeks/months go on.  Your gunsmith notifies you that your pistol is done with work.  Are you compelled to tell the police about this firearm?  It's certainly not in your best interest, and it's information in your head.  Compelling this information is basically testimony against self.

Depends on the warrant.  If the warrant is for "all the firearms you own" then yes you need to provide the one from the gunsmith to the police upon it's return.  If the warrant is for "all the firearms at such and such residence" then no, because the gunsmith gun was not in the place named in the search at the time the warrant was served.


On encryption, my current understanding of case law is you are not required to decrypt it with a password or phrase just like you are not required to provide the police with the combination to a safe they have a warrant for.  But they can (and will try to) brute force both the safe and the encryption and may destroy your property while doing so.

Biometric keys have been found to not be protected, because they are "public".  That is anyone with the right observation gear can get your retinal pattern or fingerprints so you can be compelled to provide them to unlock electronics.

Hawkmoon

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Re: cops arrest sheriff (NM )
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2020, 03:34:49 PM »
This whole encryption/warrant issue makes me ponder:

Imagine you killed someone.  Shot them dead with a pistol.  Questionable/bad shooting.  You get charged, you make bail.  The State is building charges against you, but they don't have the murder weapon.

You know where you put the pistol.  The prosecution doesn't.  They have a warrant for your home, vehicle, workplace, etc.  Search comes up empty.

They don't have a warrant for your HEAD.  For your information.

Is it destruction of evidence if you don't tell them where the pistol is?  Is it a crime to not tell where the pistol is?  Compelling to tell where it is, is involuntary testimony against self.

With the proviso that I am not an attorney -- I am an author, editor, and native speaker of English who owns more than one dictionary. It cannot be destruction of evidence if you have not destroyed evidence. If they want to charge you with destruction of evidence, they have to be able to prove that you destroyed evidence. "We can't find it" is not proof that you destroyed it.

Quote
Or even a step further.  You have a safe full of firearms.  You send one off to a gunsmith for some work.  You are somehow associated with a crime you didn't commit.  The police have a warrant for all your firearms.  They come and empty out your safe.  They're testing them against the crime scene in question.  Weeks/months go on.  Your gunsmith notifies you that your pistol is done with work.  Are you compelled to tell the police about this firearm?  It's certainly not in your best interest, and it's information in your head.  Compelling this information is basically testimony against self.

You answered your own question. The 5th amendment says that no person shall be compelled to be a witness against himself in a criminal proceeding. Ironically, there has been case law precedent to the effect that criminals carrying guns illegally are not required to admit that they are carrying, because that would be incriminating, yet citizens carrying lawfully with (or without) a permit cannot decline to answer, because admitting they are carrying would NOT be incriminating.

As dogmush pointed out -- it would hinge somewhat on the exact wording of the warrant. In general, search warrants must spell out the exact place to be searched and the item or items expected to be found. If the warrant follows that pattern (as it should), it would be a warrant to search a 2-story residential structure at 127 Elm Street, for firearms owned or possessed by Mr. AZ Redhawk. If they don't ask the judge for a warrant to look for guns at a gunsmith's shop -- they don't have permission to get guns at a gunsmith's shop.
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