Author Topic: Jogger shot in Georgia  (Read 18135 times)

bedlamite

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2020, 10:27:16 PM »
Colion Noir video
It's a short video pretty good and to the point IMHO

My Thoughts On The Ahmaud Arbery Case
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYa-LSTCS40

Moir from Noir.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr-HMjlr1sU

I don't follow him that much, as his presentation style is not really my cup of tea, but both his videos on this case have been quite good. I don't know how familiar he is with the laws in question, but FWIW, I believe he is one of those lawyer type guys. They're not always terrible.  =)
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MechAg94

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2020, 10:46:35 PM »
Moir from Noir.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr-HMjlr1sU

I don't follow him that much, as his presentation style is not really my cup of tea, but both his videos on this case have been quite good. I don't know how familiar he is with the laws in question, but FWIW, I believe he is one of those lawyer type guys. They're not always terrible.  =)
I just saw that as well.  It was a good presentation of the basic facts (at least the ones we know). 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Hawkmoon

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2020, 01:08:53 PM »
They're dropping like flies. The case has now been turned over to a fourth prosecutor.

https://www.courthousenews.com/georgia-attorney-general-appoints-new-prosecutor-in-ahmaud-arbery-murder-case/

Of course, USA Today carried the story but completely misrepresented it.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/05/11/ahmaud-arbery-case-advocates-say-appointment-special-prosecutor-removes-bias/3107731001/

They make it appear that the third prosecutor, Durden, was replaced by the Attorney General because he, too, failed to pursue the case. In fact, it was Durden who called in the GBI to investigate, it was Durden who authorized the arrest, and it was Durden's request that the case be tirned over to a prosecutor with a larger staff and more resources.
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dogmush

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2020, 01:43:08 PM »
I wonder if the prosecutors are seeing this as a no-win *expletive deleted*it show, and dumping it if they can.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2020, 02:37:29 PM »
The latest prosecutor is a black woman. If she doesn't get a conviction, you can bet the black community will portray her as a sell-out to Whitey.
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230RN

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2020, 02:52:04 PM »
I wonder if the prosecutors are seeing this as a no-win *expletive deleted*it show, and dumping it if they can.


That's the smell I'm getting, too.

bedlamite

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2020, 02:56:42 PM »
The latest prosecutor is a black woman. If she doesn't get a conviction, you can bet the black community will portray her as a sell-out to Whitey.

No, the more likely portrayal is whitey keeping black women down.
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

sumpnz

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2020, 03:18:21 PM »
As far as the shooters go, legally I have seen nothing yet that puts them in a righteous light.  No matter the black guy's criminal record, or if he had been trespassing, or even if he was guilty of recent burglaries in the area, I haven't seen any information that the attempted detention was in any way legally justified.  The GA statute on citizen arrest is pretty clear, and even giving all possible charitable interpretations of the events this far disclosed, they didn't meet the requirements for a legal citizen arrest.  Certainly once they brandished their firearms they became the instigators of violence, and Arbery would have been fully justified in using deadly force to resist attempted false imprisonment or even attempted kidnapping, and definitely assault with a deadly weapon.

The retired cop, at least, should have known better.

MechAg94

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2020, 03:29:39 PM »
As far as the shooters go, legally I have seen nothing yet that puts them in a righteous light.  No matter the black guy's criminal record, or if he had been trespassing, or even if he was guilty of recent burglaries in the area, I haven't seen any information that the attempted detention was in any way legally justified.  The GA statute on citizen arrest is pretty clear, and even giving all possible charitable interpretations of the events this far disclosed, they didn't meet the requirements for a legal citizen arrest.  Certainly once they brandished their firearms they became the instigators of violence, and Arbery would have been fully justified in using deadly force to resist attempted false imprisonment or even attempted kidnapping, and definitely assault with a deadly weapon.

The retired cop, at least, should have known better.
I think I am in agreement with you.  Regardless of any politics involved, they put themselves in a hole by their own actions.  Now, I am open to hear more facts come out at trial, but it don't look good right now.

At the least, it is a good example of what not to do if you happen to be following/tracking a "known" criminal.   
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sumpnz

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2020, 03:47:13 PM »
I think I am in agreement with you.  Regardless of any politics involved, they put themselves in a hole by their own actions.  Now, I am open to hear more facts come out at trial, but it don't look good right now.

At the least, it is a good example of what not to do if you happen to be following/tracking a "known" criminal.    

Yep.  Reports are starting to come out the shooters had a prior confrontation with the same guy.  If that's true they would have been justified in following enough to tell the cops (that haven't retired yet) where he was, and maybe to get a good photo of the guy.  They still had no justification for chasing him and blocking him in with their vehicles, and then confronting him with firearms.

The prior confrontations apparently were over earlier trespassing at the same construction site.  But it was never a burglary as the owner of the property has stated nothing was ever missing from the property.  

Ben

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2020, 04:38:57 PM »

The prior confrontations apparently were over earlier trespassing at the same construction site.  But it was never a burglary as the owner of the property has stated nothing was ever missing from the property.  

After an early video came out, I made a case for the house being a remodel in the existing neighborhood, which would mean the inside might still have stuff in it, etc. However a later video either posted in this thread or I saw it elsewhere, showed that the inside looked to be completely open stud walls, just like new construction before the drywall goes up.

If he were looking to steal, I guess it would have been tools or things potentially left by workers. Regardless, I'm still calling him a victim unless other evidence to the contrary comes out, but at this point, I'm not sure that's possible. Hard to refute the video of them jumping out and attacking him, whether they thought they were "arresting" him or not.
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dogmush

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2020, 02:31:21 AM »
Let's also keep our crimes clear and in rooted Georgia statutes.  Colion Noir (who is a TX Lawyer)  laid out the GA criminal trespass statute pretty clearly.

Aurbury had not been informed by the owner (or rep.) nor do their appear to have been signs on the property,  and notification is required in GA law for criminal trespass. So even if our shooter HAD been non retired police officers, their authority would only have extended to giving him a misdemeanor Criminal Trespass warning, after they had contacted the owner and determined that was indeed what the owner wished.

There's not evidence,  even with the video from inside the home under construction, that Aurbury committed any crime at all, under GA law.

I think that's important to remember.

I also am open to new facts, but as it stands now, I can't really think of any set of facts that will make this a legally justified shooting.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2020, 03:42:21 AM »
Let's also keep our crimes clear and in rooted Georgia statutes.  Colion Noir (who is a TX Lawyer)  laid out the GA criminal trespass statute pretty clearly.

Aurbury had not been informed by the owner (or rep.) nor do their appear to have been signs on the property,  and notification is required in GA law for criminal trespass. So even if our shooter HAD been non retired police officers, their authority would only have extended to giving him a misdemeanor Criminal Trespass warning, after they had contacted the owner and determined that was indeed what the owner wished.

There's not evidence,  even with the video from inside the home under construction, that Aurbury committed any crime at all, under GA law.

I think that's important to remember.

I also am open to new facts, but as it stands now, I can't really think of any set of facts that will make this a legally justified shooting.

Colion Noir laid out a pretty decent analysis, but he did slip up. In his second video, he said (two or three times, I believe) that Arbery wasn't trespassing. That's not correct. By being on the property and in the house without the owner's permission (or other legal authority), Arbery WAS trespassing. But Georgia law doesn't appear to have anything to say about simple trespass. The law only addresses "criminal" trespass, and Arbery didn't do anything that would have triggered "criminal" trespass. (Unless he was there with the intention of stealing something. If he did have that intention, he didn't follow through, and there's now no way to know.) And, even if he did, the law in Georgia makes criminal trespass a misdemeanor, not a felony.

So, based on the available evidence, there was no criminal trespass as established in Georgia state laws, and the two rednecks had no legal justification to accost Arbery with weapons.
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Ron

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2020, 07:44:23 AM »
Same guy but using a slightly different last name ( who doesn't use multiple names aliases?).

Another dodgy character being held up by the media as a sainted victim.

If the major news media reports it it's probably a lie.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/2013/12/09/police-man-brought-gun-to-high-school-basketball-game/

https://thebrunswicknews.com/news/local_news/police-arrest-four-in-span-of-an-hour/article_23db5ae1-9e5d-519e-a683-c1a216c042c0.html

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makattak

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2020, 08:15:01 AM »
Same guy but using a slightly different last name ( who doesn't use multiple names aliases?).

Another dodgy character being held up by the media as a sainted victim.

If the major news media reports it it's probably a lie.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/2013/12/09/police-man-brought-gun-to-high-school-basketball-game/

https://thebrunswicknews.com/news/local_news/police-arrest-four-in-span-of-an-hour/article_23db5ae1-9e5d-519e-a683-c1a216c042c0.html

I've heard reports that Mr. Aubery (I think that's his last name) had a criminal record.

He might very well have been casing the house for a future burglary. Maybe he was even a serial killer learning the layout so it would be easier to move around inside after the owners had moved in. Maybe the two shooters saved the world from a guy who would have gone on to a "SAW" type murder rampage.

If that's the case, it's sad for them because they attempted to stop a man who they had no right to try to stop. That means they are the ones in the wrong here. It doesn't matter that the deceased had been a criminal, if they did not observe a felony, they had no right to detain the guy.

Sumpnz mentioned that a retired cop ought to have known better. I'm fairly certain it's the "retired cop" part of this that CAUSED him to try to apprehend the "suspect."

Just like most of the people who end up pushing back against unjust laws tend to be unsavory characters, we still push for our rights, even when it's a criminal whose rights are being violated. The same applies here. Mr. Aubery, past criminal or not, was having his rights violated. His history has no bearing on his current situation.*

*For the benefit of any who are going to claim otherwise: unlike, for example, Mr. Martin's situation, where his history was used to show that he had a history of starting fights, which lends credence to Mr. Zimmerman's account that he was attacked by Mr. Martin. That he was likely casing the houses merely meant that Zimmerman had justification to be suspicious of his actions. As with the rest of that case, the plump Zimmerman chasing down and accosting Martin didn't fit the timeline (nor the location of the assault.) HAD Zimmerman attempted to detain Martin, Martin would have been justified in defending himself. The difference in that case was that rational people thought it highly unlikely that fit 17 year old Martin was chased down by Zimmerman, after having run out of sight and somehow Zimmerman dragged him back to within sight of his truck before Martin suddenly turned the tables on him.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 08:38:26 AM by makattak »
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Ron

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2020, 08:27:48 AM »
Just applying more context to the situation.

I have no opinion on the whole debacle other than like everything else, the media is distorting the reality.

So any opinion based solely on media (dis)information is potentially wrong.  

The media is just one big psy-op.
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dogmush

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2020, 10:32:12 AM »
Colion Noir laid out a pretty decent analysis, but he did slip up. In his second video, he said (two or three times, I believe) that Arbery wasn't trespassing. That's not correct. By being on the property and in the house without the owner's permission (or other legal authority), Arbery WAS trespassing. But Georgia law doesn't appear to have anything to say about simple trespass. The law only addresses "criminal" trespass, and Arbery didn't do anything that would have triggered "criminal" trespass. (Unless he was there with the intention of stealing something. If he did have that intention, he didn't follow through, and there's now no way to know.) And, even if he did, the law in Georgia makes criminal trespass a misdemeanor, not a felony.

So, based on the available evidence, there was no criminal trespass as established in Georgia state laws, and the two rednecks had no legal justification to accost Arbery with weapons.

Absolutely true.

I actually had that post all typed out and went back to put the word "criminal " in front of trespass in the post. It's a fine distinction,  but an important one.

sumpnz

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2020, 01:53:49 PM »
False imprisonment in Georgia is a felony.  Their murder statute classifies murder as causing the death of another human being in the commission of a felony "irrespective of malice".

The McMichaels will go down for murder, unless they can convince a jury that what they did wasn't false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc.  Based on what has been publicized thus far I don't see how they can possibly do that.  They didn't come even vaguely close to meeting the scope of lawful citizen arrest. 

Again, caveat that the above is based on the currently publicized information.  As we saw with he who must not be named from Florida, it's possible that additional evidence will come out and improve the defense's case.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #94 on: May 14, 2020, 05:18:55 PM »
I'm not sure why we're trying to avoid having he who must not be summoned by naming the unnameable name dance on out and beclown himself.
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Ben

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #96 on: May 15, 2020, 11:53:25 PM »
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

bedlamite

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #97 on: May 16, 2020, 02:14:06 PM »
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

dogmush

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #98 on: May 17, 2020, 03:42:42 AM »
My Shitshow Meter is ticking steadily higher.

The issue in court is going to be, I think, McMichael acted like a cop, when he was not.

It is possible his buddies in Law Enforcement set him up for that by not telling him to mind his retired business, but the sticking point will still be that he went out to enforce laws, armed, with his kid, when he was not a cop.

But yeah, Shitshow.

Also, if the local LEO's had brought him into the situation,  that explains their frantic search for some way to rule this justified and make it go away before to many folks dug in to it.

WLJ

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #99 on: May 18, 2020, 11:39:38 AM »
Doesn't sound good for the defense.

Quote
Ahmaud Arbery, the Georgia jogger gunned down by a white father and son with links to local law enforcement, was chased for more than four minutes by the duo and a neighbor who filmed the incident before he was shot and killed, an attorney for Arbery's family said.

New video shows Ahmaud Arbery chased for 4 minutes by father and son who shot him: lawyer
https://www.foxnews.com/us/ahmaud-arbery-video-chased-minutes-father-son-shot-lawyer
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