Author Topic: Dune  (Read 12344 times)

WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #125 on: November 07, 2021, 10:13:07 AM »
They also deleted "jihad" and all references to Baron Harkonnen's homosexuality.

The Baron wasn't homosexual but rather pansexual in the book IIRC.
His "curse" was put on him as punishment for brutality raping one of the Bene Gesserit sisters, Jessica's mother IIRC. She was there to be impregnated by him as part of the BG's plan anyway but he took it further.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 10:49:41 AM by WLJ »
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Pb

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Re: Dune
« Reply #126 on: November 07, 2021, 08:15:40 PM »
The Baron wasn't homosexual but rather pansexual in the book IIRC.
His "curse" was put on him as punishment for brutality raping one of the Bene Gesserit sisters, Jessica's mother IIRC. She was there to be impregnated by him as part of the BG's plan anyway but he took it further.

In the original novel, the Baron was apparently bisexual, but was primarily a homosexual pederast and rapist.  The stuff about the Baron raping a Bene Gesserit was an invention of the Brian Herbert "prequels" and had was not sourced from the Frank Herbert novels.

I haven't seen the new film, but I expect portraying an evil man as homosexual would be too politically incorrect.

WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #127 on: November 07, 2021, 08:18:47 PM »
Been a long time since I read the book and much of my memory of it may have been tainted by later stuff
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WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #128 on: November 07, 2021, 08:29:57 PM »
Yeah, doing a quick scan of some stuff on line that came from Brian Herbert's writings and not everyone considers his books canon.
Over the decades my memories of the books have blurred
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Dune
« Reply #129 on: November 07, 2021, 08:40:10 PM »
I haven't seen it yet and am curious: Did they add any implied homosexuality to "good" characters? I'm wondering if they removed implications of the Baron being homosexual because they didn't want to tie homosexuality to "evil" characters.

Just re-watched it again today in theaters.

Baron's homosexuality and pedophilia are not present.  I expect we might see traces of it once Fayd is introduced in part 2.  Then again, maybe not.

I didn't detect any homosexuality anywhere in the screenplay.

One thing that I found intriguing on a re-watch was the Guild Highliners.  In the scene where the Bene Gesserit come to Caladan to test Paul, they come out of one end of the Highliner, in orbit over Caladan.  But if you look through the tube/maw of the Highliner, there's another planet in the background of the tunnel of the ship, that doesn't match up to the backdrop of space around Caladan.  I can only assume that in this portrayal, the Navigators use their Highliners as wormhole generators rather than as some sort of FTL capable carrier craft like traditional depictions have done.  Which then begs the question of how the Highliners are able to travel, since they don't stay on station permanently like some sort of Stargate.
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MechAg94

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Re: Dune
« Reply #130 on: November 07, 2021, 08:51:43 PM »
I need to watch the movie again, but I thought the Baron made some comment or look such that he regretted having to kill Paul.  My memory could be affected by the book and past movies, not sure. 
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WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #131 on: November 08, 2021, 07:43:11 AM »
the cinematography of dune (2021)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEQJHZxwVrg
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K Frame

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Re: Dune
« Reply #132 on: November 08, 2021, 08:04:50 AM »
the cinematography of dune (2021)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEQJHZxwVrg

Thank God Alec Baldwin wasn't part of the movie or it might have looked a LOT different...
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WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #133 on: November 08, 2021, 08:16:30 AM »
Thank God Alec Baldwin wasn't part of the movie or it might have looked a LOT different...

They would need a new cinematographer and maybe recast a few parts for the 2nd movie
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WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #134 on: November 08, 2021, 09:05:25 AM »

One thing that I found intriguing on a re-watch was the Guild Highliners.  In the scene where the Bene Gesserit come to Caladan to test Paul, they come out of one end of the Highliner, in orbit over Caladan.  But if you look through the tube/maw of the Highliner, there's another planet in the background of the tunnel of the ship, that doesn't match up to the backdrop of space around Caladan.  I can only assume that in this portrayal, the Navigators use their Highliners as wormhole generators rather than as some sort of FTL capable carrier craft like traditional depictions have done.  Which then begs the question of how the Highliners are able to travel, since they don't stay on station permanently like some sort of Stargate.

Starts at 1:26

https://youtu.be/VEQJHZxwVrg?t=86

Which then begs the question of how the Highliners are able to travel, since they don't stay on station permanently like some sort of Stargate.

Maybe they do? ??
« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 09:56:48 AM by WLJ »
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WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #135 on: November 08, 2021, 10:13:41 AM »
To answer a question that had popped up in my mind on whether or not Alia referred to the Baron as grandfather in the book.

Quote
Of all the uses of time-vision, this was the strangest. "I have breasted the future to place my words where only you can hear them," Alia had said. "Even you cannot do that, my brother. I find it an interesting play. And ... oh, yes—I've killed our grandfather, the demented old Baron. He had very little pain
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Dune
« Reply #136 on: November 08, 2021, 11:43:23 AM »


Maybe they do? ??

If the Highliners/Gates are planet-bound and incapable of FTL travel themselves and only function as jump-gates for smaller craft, they couldn't exist in the year 10191.  This is a galaxy-spanning civilization.  Technically they call the Emperor the "Emperor of the known Universe."  Not even the galaxy, so it could be a trans-galactic civilization.

If Highliners are limited to sub-relativistic travel it would take tens of thousands of years for them to seed other stars with Highliners.  Once a ship arrived at a target system of course it makes travel near instantaneous between two systems with ships, as long as the traveling ships are smaller than the Highliner.  Perhaps a Highliner can be made to decrease its radius and fit through another one, then expand again once out, and they can leap-frog one another?

Although, a different idea has now struck me and now I'm trying to wrap my head around the notion of one Highliner simultaneously being in two places instead of two separate Highliners creating a wormhole bridge.  Perhaps when we saw with the Kaitain/Caladan scene with the Bene Gesserit ship, the ship was simultaneously in orbit around Kaitain and Caladan.  Then when it provides transport for the Atreides armada, it shifts its reality to be simultaneously at Caladan/Arrakis. 

I definitely think it's intentional though, that Villeneuve opted to make the Highliners look like sandworms.  I'm excited to see what the Navigators look like.  Though he strikes me as a filmmaker that appreciates unresolved mystery and he may leave that as a nugget for fans to gnaw on in their own minds.
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WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #137 on: November 08, 2021, 12:05:34 PM »
There is/was FTL travel without spice. How else would mankind have gotten to Arrakis in the first place? Spice enabled jumps are just much safer and quicker and is greatly preferred despite the huge price the guild charges for them.
I like the two places idea and it makes sense.
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K Frame

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Re: Dune
« Reply #138 on: November 08, 2021, 12:08:31 PM »
In the original movie back in 1984 they described the guild navigators as being able to "fold" space as a mean of space travel across vast distances. All that was brought about by the ability of the navigators to use Spice to focus the powers of their mind.

To me that means that, because Spice is found ONLY on Arrakis, the empire had to start in or around the Arrakis system.


"Technically they call the Emperor the "Emperor of the known Universe."  Not even the galaxy, so it could be a trans-galactic civilization."

Could also be a massive amount of chutzpah. Hey, we've only traveled out to a radius of 100 light years, but our emperor? He's STILL the emperor of the known universe! Because we say so!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2021, 06:50:10 AM by K Frame »
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WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #139 on: November 08, 2021, 12:19:41 PM »
In the original movie back in 1984 they described the guild navigators as being able to "fold" space as a mean of space travel across vast differences. All that was brought about by the ability of the navigators to use Spice to focus the powers of their mind.

To me that means that, because Spice is found ONLY on Arrakis, the empire had to start in or around the Arrakis system.


"Technically they call the Emperor the "Emperor of the known Universe."  Not even the galaxy, so it could be a trans-galactic civilization."

Could also be a massive amount of chutzpah. Hey, we've only traveled out to a radius of 100 light years, but our emperor? He's STILL the emperor of the known universe! Because we say so!

Kind of like calling The World Series THE WORLD Series
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Dune
« Reply #140 on: November 08, 2021, 04:45:31 PM »
There is/was FTL travel without spice. How else would mankind have gotten to Arrakis in the first place? Spice enabled jumps are just much safer and quicker and is greatly preferred despite the huge price the guild charges for them.
I like the two places idea and it makes sense.

To my recollection, FTL travel was possible with computers thousands of years earlier, but they had their own Terminator/Matrix problems with AI and the Butlerian Jihad, so computers are now forbidden.  Spice is the mechanism by which Guild Navigators are able to perform the task manually.  It's supposed to be a type of prescience that allows them to see the mistakes they might make while flying a ship, before making them, allowing them to make only the right moves to accomplish a safe voyage.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #141 on: November 09, 2021, 10:25:38 AM »
More

The Beauty That Is DUNE (2021)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTPOY4aQIxY
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lee n. field

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Re: Dune
« Reply #142 on: November 09, 2021, 10:56:31 AM »
I don't think that Earth ethnicity applies to an alien race on an alien planet.

Nothing but humans in the Dune universe, AFAIK.
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MechAg94

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Re: Dune
« Reply #143 on: November 09, 2021, 11:47:20 AM »
To my recollection, FTL travel was possible with computers thousands of years earlier, but they had their own Terminator/Matrix problems with AI and the Butlerian Jihad, so computers are now forbidden.  Spice is the mechanism by which Guild Navigators are able to perform the task manually.  It's supposed to be a type of prescience that allows them to see the mistakes they might make while flying a ship, before making them, allowing them to make only the right moves to accomplish a safe voyage.
I got the impression it may not have been terminator/matrix problems, but nerd cookies has a video on it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YnAs4NpRd8
The Nerd Cookies channel has a bunch of videos on Dune lore. 
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freakazoid

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Re: Dune
« Reply #144 on: November 11, 2021, 11:53:47 PM »
Read the book once years ago, need to read it again. Also saw the first movie once years ago, and need to watch it again.
Saw the new movie a few days ago and thought it was really good. Didn't know it was a two parter. I wonder if his name will still be a killing word, which was something from the first movie and not actually from the book if I'm remembering correctly. For some reason that quote had stuck with me.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Dune
« Reply #145 on: November 12, 2021, 04:32:36 PM »
I wonder if his name will still be a killing word, which was something from the first movie and not actually from the book if I'm remembering correctly. For some reason that quote had stuck with me.

Lynch left out something called the "Ma'dhi" (not sure on spelling), which is a fremen word for an anticipated prophet.  There's an implied parallel between the sound of "Muad'dib" and "Ma'dhi" despite the fact that Muad'dib is just the name of a little desert mouse species.  In each work so far the mouse is figured somehow... obviously the book has all three, the Lynch version leaves out the Ma'dhi but makes reference to Muad'dib via a string of shadowed craters on a moon of Arrakis, probably since neither CGI nor puppetry was sufficient to the task of bringing such a creature to life on screen in 1984, the SyFy version had Ma'dhi, the mouse and Muad'dib, and the 2021 version has Ma'dhi and the mouse but no reference to Paul as Muad'dib yet.

I think the intent behind "my name is a killing word" was to tie the apparent power of Muad'dib to the power of a Ma'dhi.  The sound weapons were invented out of whole cloth by Lynch, but are intended to represent the combination of the fremen discipline with the Wierding Way under leadership of a fanatic.

Something I'm frustrated that was not included yet in any telling of Dune on screen, is the cyclic nature of warfare technology.  In the constant struggle for the high ground they end up playing rock paper scissors through the ages.  Lasers were popular until body shields came along.  The act of a laser hitting a body shield is catastrophic to an entire battlefield and the resulting effect is like a nuclear explosion, so lasers fell out of favor for melee weapons that could penetrate the shields.  Projectile small arms could have limited effect on body shields, as well as artillery, but couldn't be wielded by parties protected by shields.  Which makes lasers appealing to use against artillery units, since they're unlikely to be shielded and even if they are shielded the explosion will result in taking out the entire artillery company and surrounding area, which generally doesn't have friendlies intermixed anyways.

At the point in the story where the Baron launches his sneak attack on the Duke, the Baron opts to introduce artillery to the battlefield again (in the book).

In the 2021 movie, we see the fremen using lasers on Harkonnen spice harvesters in the opening of the movie.  Because the desert makes shields useless.
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WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #146 on: November 12, 2021, 04:40:27 PM »

In the 2021 movie, we see the fremen using lasers on Harkonnen spice harvesters in the opening of the movie.  Because the desert makes shields useless.

I seem to recall something about shields also attracting worms and putting them into a frenzy.
And shields might make being swallowed by a worm even more unpleasant  [barf]
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 05:45:50 PM by WLJ »
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WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #147 on: November 16, 2021, 07:26:09 PM »
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WLJ

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Re: Dune
« Reply #148 on: November 16, 2021, 09:56:38 PM »
Another one  :rofl:

Dune - Someone is Far, Far Away From a Galaxy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4d3b6fVsCQ
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AJ Dual

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Re: Dune
« Reply #149 on: November 17, 2021, 11:49:44 AM »
I got the impression it may not have been terminator/matrix problems, but nerd cookies has a video on it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YnAs4NpRd8
The Nerd Cookies channel has a bunch of videos on Dune lore.

In the original Frank Herbert books, the problems with robots/AI's were left kind of vague, and implied that humans with the tech enslaved or repressed everyone else.

In the later books by Herbert's son and other writers dealing directly with the Butlerian Jihad, there were first a group of Cyborgs "Titans" who took control of everything, then an evil AI named "Omnious" then co-opted the Cyborgs as slaves/generals and was running the show. A rather ham fisted allegory to Sauron and the kings he coopted as the Ring Wraiths.
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