Andy Rooney, 60 Minutes tonight, 3-11-07

[Matthew Carberry]

Learning to follow direct orders and learning to think analytically and solve problems using reason under stress are complementary, not mutually exclusive.

You want privates to monkey see, monkey do.  The minute they get a little time in, you expect them to start showing initiative and creativity.  The solid grounding in the fundamentals of infantry combat and weapons is what allows them to think outside the box.

There's a lot less bricks in the military than seems to be assumed, at least in the combat arms.  Stupid is fatal in combat.

[MechAg94]

I would agree with that.  You have to know the basics before you branch out and really accomplish things.

[Thor]

Stupid can be fatal in many situations. Combat is not exclusive. There are many more people in the military than just combat soldiers or "cannon fodder". There is a great deal required to run the technological military.

Ezeliel, BTW, if you're using cable broadband,  (and probably DSL), those technologies came FROM the military. And the next time you look up a GPS coordinate, again, thank the military. But, as you put it, we're just "losers" that had no significance in civilian life. For the record, I DID turn down a college scholarship to join the Navy. I also finished High School a year before I was supposed to and could have finished almost two years ahead. I find your attitude insulting, arrogant and full of assumptions.

[wmenorr67]

You know awhile back I challenged Zeke to tell us what first hand experience he had with the military.  Since he seems to want to bash the military and its members all the time.  But he never got around to it.  Is it because he does not have a clue as to what it is really like in the military?  Maybe he got turned down to join?  I guess we will never know.

[Perd Hapley]

He has sometimes mentioned his conversations with officers from nearby Fort Sill.  At a bar, of course.  No wonder he has such a low opinion of us, talking to drunken arty officers.   

Stupid is fatal in combat.

  Especially when the squad and team leaders are the stupid ones.  That's why I got out before they could push me to E-5.  I'm not stupid, but I think slowly.  When bullets fly, the two look very similar.

[wmenorr67]

I didn't realize Zeke was from Oklahoma.  But anyone who lives in a military town should be careful what one says about the military.  We maybe stuipid but rarely forget.

[Ezekiel]

(sigh)  I'll be sure to take your memory into consideration...  Oddly, "I'm not concerned."

In actuality -- yes -- I am from Oklahoma but reside in Kansas City now, after spending 6 years living in Leavenworth, KS.  So, besides down south, I have heard folks who are graduates of the Army War College make idiots of themselves in public where I, immediately, called them on it.  In sum, I wasn't careful and I do not need to be.

Anyone who is intelligent enough (by their own word) to reject a given military strategy, yet foolish enough to implement it due to the brainwashed rigors of "Chain of Command", gets no respect in my book.  That's what I've borne witness to, and pointed out, during musings with military folk in mulitple settings.

This is, of course, merely a single opinion.

I didn't realize Zeke was from Oklahoma.  But anyone who lives in a military town should be careful what one says about the military.  We maybe stuipid but rarely forget.

[Ezekiel]

Are you not implying, in your own way, that you sat at E-4, looked up the Chain of Command, analyzed the intelligence level of those you'd be listening to, and said, "Oh, Hell no"?

That's pretty much my argument, too. 

I merely made that analysis BEFORE I gave such an organization years of my life.  (I have, of course, given other screwy social entities years of my life, but that's another story...)

Stupid is fatal in combat.

  Especially when the squad and team leaders are the stupid ones.  That's why I got out before they could push me to E-5.  I'm not stupid, but I think slowly.  When bullets fly, the two look very similar.

[Perd Hapley]

Not at all, Zeke.  What I was saying is that I don't think fast enough for combat work, so I would have made a terrible NCO when we came under fire.  I was infantry, so my job would have been to direct small units of team or squad size, then platoons later on.  As an E4, I actually would have already been a few casualties away from squad leader. 

All the brainwashing didn't seem to help, either.   

I was very impressed by most of the NCOs that I served with.  A few of them were bums.

[Ezekiel]

Thanks for the clarification.  "Most helpful."

Not at all, Zeke.  What I was saying is that I don't think fast enough for combat work, so I would have made a terrible NCO when we came under fire.  I was infantry, so my job would have been to direct small units of team or squad size, then platoons later on.  As an E4, I actually would have already been a few casualties away from squad leader. 

All the brainwashing didn't seem to help, either.   

I was very impressed by most of the NCOs that I served with.  A few of them were bums.

[wmenorr67]

Hey Zeke, still trying to figure out your link to the military.  You sound if as everyone you have met that is in the military or was in the military is incapable of thinking and/or speaking for themselves.  If that is not the case I apoligize.  However, you have not given me any indication that I am wrong.  Not going to go into by military background too much due to the nature of the jobs I have held.  Not proper converstation on an internet forum.  However, I have been a E-5 twice now due to the fact the first time I was one of the ones you did think and speak for themselves.  And I guess I just spoke one too many times when I shouldn't have.  But at the same time I would do it all over again.

[Ezekiel]

This I have huge respect for.

Do you have any idea how many folk -- daily -- sell their soul to keep that stripe?  And we wonder about stagnancy...

The military, and any organizational system operated in a similar manner (of which there are thousands), caters to the lowest common denominator of intelligence, action and belief.  Heirarchy based upon "time in grade" and not "ability" stunts excellence.

However, I have been a E-5 twice now due to the fact the first time I was one of the ones you did think and speak for themselves.  And I guess I just spoke one too many times when I shouldn't have.  But at the same time I would do it all over again.

[Perd Hapley]

Do you have any idea how many folk -- daily -- sell their soul to keep that stripe?

Do you?

[Ezekiel]

"No."  Decidedly not.

Now, I did sell my soul to Fannie Mae to get two BA's and an MPA -- I'll owe them $100 monthly until the end of time -- but I'll admit it was a small price to pay for the wisdom.

There is no wisdom to be found in being a drone.

Do you have any idea how many folk -- daily -- sell their soul to keep that stripe?

Do you?

[Perd Hapley]

There is no wisdom to be found in being a drone.

I'll ignore the drone nonsense, and just say that one learns a great deal in the military experience, much more in some cases than others (there is a diverse range of duty stations, jobs, types of units, and other factors).

Ezekiel, I'm afraid you don't know what you're mouthing off about.  But we've tried to help you see that before.  I think I've been patient and kind, here.  Now I'll tell you that make a fool of yourself with these ridiculous and inflammatory comments that reflect a total refusal to view the military in any kind of honest or open-minded way. 

[Ezekiel]

(sigh)  Must all drones exist in the military?  Did I place "drones" and "military" in the same sentence above?

It is your inherent defensiveness -- issues, anyone? -- that speaks for itself.

If it was as excellent as you've indicated, you'd be a lifer, no?

"Speaks volumes, friend." 

[Perd Hapley]

Wait, wait.  After you spend several threads telling us that the military is full of brainwashed losers, I'm not supposed to think the drone comment is aimed at the military?   

And I already told you why I'm no longer in the service.

But notice that you've boiled things down to two options for me.  Either the military is "excellent" (and I never said it was) so I would have stayed in.  Or the military is big mess, which only the idioti can tolerate.  The truth is in the middle, somewhere.  Friend.   

[wmenorr67]

Hey Zeke, there is a difference between a "lifer" and a careerist.  And there are alot more of the careerist in the military than "lifers."  If you don't know the difference I will point them out to you.  Lifers stay in just to make it to retirement and have no desire to get promoted once they reach a certain level.  Also lifers usually only look out for themselves and don't take the time to stir things up when they need it.  Careerists on the other hand are always trying to better themselves to get in line for that next promotion and at the same time continue to mentor and assist those below them in rank and experience. 
I appluad(sp) Fistful for his service and his integrity to realize that he didn't have what it took to be a careerist and left the military.  Believe me every unit has a few that don't realize that fact. 
I myself was chapter out from active duty back in '93 for various reasons.  I still missed the military life and the friendships I made while there.  That is why after a 9 year break in service I decided that I wanted back in and joined the National Guard.  It took me two waivers from a LTC to be able to get into the Guard.  Now I plan on making the Guard a career and after I am done with my deployment I am going to try and become a Warrant Officer.  Now do I sound like a "lifer" to you?

[Ezekiel]

Noted.  "Apology offered."

I enjoy sparring, but I was far too personal.  Were we over a beer, you'd have noted such as a subtle jab, not a direct insult.

The Internet does not always translate.

The truth is in the middle, somewhere.  Friend.   

[Ezekiel]

"No."  You sound like an intelligent guy.

Now do I sound like a "lifer" to you?