Two Muslims walk into an internet cafe...

[Iain]

Shootinstudent isn't the cause of grief on this forum. Nor his he the one making use of popular prejudices and false claims.

[CAnnoneer]

You are right though, there is no reason to assume he wants to see sharia law enforced in the US just because he has loyalties to folks in the ME.

I encourage you to triangulate his expressed views on multiple related subjects.

[Strings]

Y'all missed my point, I think. It's completely possible that Hamas is oushing for democracy, to aid in taking power. Which, to some people, looks good on the surface: "democratically elected group takes over from tyranical dictator, film at 11". What isn't mentioned is the sudden change when they DO take power...

 Democracy, much like a gun, is amoral: morality stems from how it's used, and to what purpose. Groups like Hamas are NOT just looking to "free the oppressed peoples from tyranny", but to institute their own form of tyranny in their place...

[De Selby]

Hunter Rose,

Look, I really appreciate your effort to explaint things, but you're going to have to realize that we're talking about Muslims here.  Since we're discussing Muslims, your attempt to make sense is offensive and anti-American.  Please stop trying to use your brain whenever you talk about a Muslim organization of any kind.

At least, that's the message I've been sent by this thread.

[Manedwolf]

Please stop trying to use your brain whenever you talk about a Muslim organization of any kind.

That'd be the leftist, apologist, British and French government and ACLU stance, yes.

[Perd Hapley]

OK, folks, he's on to us.  He's figured out that we all hate Muslims. 

[Ron]

Look, I really appreciate your effort to explain things, but you're going to have to realize that we're talking about Muslims here.  Since we're discussing Muslims, your attempt to make sense is offensive and anti-American.  Please stop trying to use your brain whenever you talk about a Muslim organization of any kind

Since 9/11 I have argued against the crowd that is prone to make the "sea of glass" type comments. I've argued that you cannot lump all the worlds Muslims into one category. Moderate Muslims haven't given me much to work with unfortunately.

Moderate Muslims have done themselves a huge disservice by not washing their hands of groups like Hamas. The moderate voice of Islam still seems to want to blame the west and the zionist entity for all the problems. They wonder why they get grouped in with the extremist terrorists in a sound bite world. It is because their rhetoric is almost indistinguishable. 

At some point in time you say it is what it is and we are going to succeed in spite of the circumstances.

"Palestine" could be a vacation destination and be successful if the folks just got busy trying to build a civil society with free markets. Money from the west or the ME would pour in there if there was an expectation that the investment was safe. Alas the people in the region appear to be nothing more than dependents who will vote for the most violent group that promises them the most goodies.

[Manedwolf]

Look, I really appreciate your effort to explain things, but you're going to have to realize that we're talking about Muslims here.  Since we're discussing Muslims, your attempt to make sense is offensive and anti-American.  Please stop trying to use your brain whenever you talk about a Muslim organization of any kind

Since 9/11 I have argued against the crowd that is prone to make the "sea of glass" type comments. I've argued that you cannot lump all the worlds Muslims into one category. Moderate Muslims haven't given me much to work with unfortunately.

Moderate Muslims have done themselves a huge disservice by not washing their hands of groups like Hamas. The moderate voice of Islam still seems to want to blame the west and the zionist entity for all the problems. They wonder why they get grouped in with the extremist terrorists in a sound bite world. It is because their rhetoric is almost indistinguishable. 

At some point in time you say it is what it is and we are going to succeed in spite of the circumstances.

"Palestine" could be a vacation destination and be successful if the folks just got busy trying to build a civil society with free markets. Money from the west or the ME would pour in there if there was an expectation that the investment was safe. Alas the people in the region appear to be nothing more than dependents who will vote for the most violent group that promises them the most goodies.

Bill Maher said it well the other night on Larry King

---------------------
MAHER: I said, I would never say it's not a religion of peace because if you do, they'll kill you. I'll stop making those jokes when the vast majority of Muslims who have nothing to do with terrorism start denouncing the people in the Muslim world who do have something to do with terrorists.

KING: A Muslim who boards a plane should not be offended if he is more searched than a non-Muslim.

MAHER: I think -- What the guy just quoted, this is elementary police work. The people going after us mostly, again, 99.99 percent of Muslims are not terrorists but among the people trying to hurt us, almost 100 percent are young Muslim men. If you see a sweaty Muslim man in an airport, please, call me back and tell me all the people who actually wouldn't be alarmed at that.

I know 9/11 was supposed to change everything but 9/11 didn't change anything. And when history is written, 9/11 will not be seen as the date that didn't change anything, 9/11 will be lumped in with all the snooze alarm dates.

That's what we say now. We say oh, we took look out when the World Trade Center was attacked in '93 and the Cole was bombed and the African embassies. All those things that led up to 9/11, we should have - no, 9/11 was just another one of those, it goes right in that category with the Cole and embassies and first World Trade Center bombing. The thing that changes everything hasn't happened yet, but it will.
---------------------

[Perd Hapley]

I just want to go on record as actually agreeing with Bill Maher for once. 

[CAnnoneer]

I just want to go on record as actually agreeing with Bill Maher for once. 

Who are you and what did you do to fistful??

[CAnnoneer]

Moderate Muslims have done themselves a huge disservice by not washing their hands of groups like Hamas. The moderate voice of Islam still seems to want to blame the west and the zionist entity for all the problems. They wonder why they get grouped in with the extremist terrorists in a sound bite world. It is because their rhetoric is almost indistinguishable. 

Exactamundo! They had free elections, did they not? Whom did they vote for? The terrorists! Enough said about "moderate muslims" being of any meaningful number, at least in Palestine. I often pump iron with an Israeli friend of mine, who told me on that day: "See what happened? Then see who they really are."

[De Selby]

Moderate Muslims have done themselves a huge disservice by not washing their hands of groups like Hamas. The moderate voice of Islam still seems to want to blame the west and the zionist entity for all the problems. They wonder why they get grouped in with the extremist terrorists in a sound bite world. It is because their rhetoric is almost indistinguishable. 

I can see how you would get this perception, but honestly...how many Hamas press releases have you read? How much exposure to "the rhetoric of hamas" do you have to judge it compared to say, Bin Laden's rhetoric?

The reason Muslims around the world aren't on Hamas's throat is that they recognize the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a territorial struggle involving a group of people who aren't accorded citizenship and civil rights in their own homes.  It is not the same situation as "Bin Laden vs. the West", no matter what your position is on the parties involved.  Israel/Palestine is an entire mountain of threads by itself, but for this discussion...suffice to say,  Hamas isn't the same as Bin Laden, and you would be wrong to say it is, even though we all agree that Hamas has committed atrocities against civilians.


CAnnoneer,

Exactamundo! They had free elections, did they not? Whom did they vote for? The terrorists! Enough said about "moderate muslims" being of any meaningful number, at least in Palestine. I often pump iron with an Israeli friend of mine, who told me on that day: "See what happened? Then see who they really are."

Does your "friend" know that you don't care if his whole country and culture are massacred?  Are you really his friend if you feel that way?

[Manedwolf]

The reason Muslims around the world aren't on Hamas's throat is that they recognize the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a territorial struggle involving a group of people who aren't accorded citizenship and civil rights in their own homes.

Why, thank you, shootinstudent, you've successfully validated MY argument and those of many strategists that yes, so-called moderate muslims are not condemning the actions of terrorists, and therefore they all need to be regarded with suspicion until they do.

You just said so, with your own words. Hamas is a terrorist organization that commits atrocities. Muslims around the world "are not on their throat". Hence, complicit with and/or condoning terrorism.

The thing about apologists for that which cannot be excused is that they eventually trip on their own arguments, which then explode in their face.

[De Selby]

Manedwolf,

Again, find me one major Muslim organization that has not condemned terrorism.

You just said so, with your own words. Hamas is a terrorist organization that commits atrocities. Muslims around the world "are not on their throat". Hence, complicit with and/or condoning terrorism.

No, not "comlicit with" terrorism.  The ANC was undoubtedly a terrorist organization by any sane definition of the word; but the whole world wasn't out there condemning the ANC.  In fact, Europe and America all gave awards to its leader, Nelson Mandela.   Does that mean they approved of his tactics of burning dissenters with gasoline and tires?  No....it means that not every situation where crimes are committed is all about black and white. 

An accurate claim about Hamas and Muslims would be that most Muslims see Hamas's suicide bombings as war crimes committed in furtherance of an essentially just cause.  Kind of like how all Americans aren't demanding that the US marine corps be disbanded over the Haditha massacre, or that the US Army be disbanded because of the Mahmoudiya rape and murder.

The thing about most hate-driven types is that they inevitably fail to come up with principles that can be applied to themselves as well as to others.

[CAnnoneer]

The thing about apologists for that which cannot be excused is that they eventually trip on their own arguments, which then explode in their face.

Well said. I would generalize the same to say that the intellectually dishonest cannot withstand a thorough examination. The set is thus expanded to include leftists, demagogues, hypocrites, fifth-columnists, gungrabbers, etc.

[roo_ster]

SS:

Yeah, lotsa muslim organizations condemn "terrorism," and then define blowing up old ladies & kids as something other than terrorism.

Color me unimpressed with most of these "condemnations of terrorism" by such types.

[De Selby]

jrfruser,

You are right to be unimpressed with such condemnations, but thankfully, they're rarer in the discourse, kind of like how people in western countries who justify state-sanctioned terrorism by claiming "You have to win no matter what!" are rare but not invisible or a tiny minority.

I agree, we need to draw a hard line at blowing up little kids and old ladies.  But that means including bombs delivered by air, land, and sea, with those bombs delivered by jacket in our definition.

[Ron]

I agree, we need to draw a hard line at blowing up little kids and old ladies.  But that means including bombs delivered by air, land, and sea, with those bombs delivered by jacket in our definition.

Classic cultural relativism.

And you wonder why folks question your loyalties?

[Manedwolf]

jrfruser,

You are right to be unimpressed with such condemnations, but thankfully, they're rarer in the discourse, kind of like how people in western countries who justify state-sanctioned terrorism by claiming "You have to win no matter what!" are rare but not invisible or a tiny minority.

I agree, we need to draw a hard line at blowing up little kids and old ladies.  But that means including bombs delivered by air, land, and sea, with those bombs delivered by jacket in our definition.

By your very words, you are disapproving of Allied strategy in World War II, as well.

So yeah, you're damned right I'm questioning your loyalties. As far as I'm concerned, you're fast moving past "misguided" and into "possibly traitorous".

As I said, this is EXACTLY how John Walker Lindh got started. How do I know you're not going to go fight on their side, there...or here, since you're supporting them more than America's interests?

[CAnnoneer]

How do I know you're not going to go fight on their side, there...or here, since you're supporting them more than America's interests?

He has chosen sides a long time ago. He has been fighting for them, here, for over an year now. He is far more useful to them here decreasing our resolve and messing with our minds than he could ever be with a rifle there.

There are many like him. Wake up already.

[De Selby]

Ron,

How is saying "the standards we apply to them should apply to us also" cultural relativism? I'm really confused by your post there, because what I was saying was exactly the opposite: ie, things aren't bad because they do them and good because we do them.

[De Selby]

Manedwolf,

So yeah, you're damned right I'm questioning your loyalties. As far as I'm concerned, you're fast moving past "misguided" and into "possibly traitorous".

Okay, instead of relying on the "OMG!" factor, why don't you try to explain how firebombing civilians from the air is not terrorism, but suicide bombing is?

It would be relativism in the extreme to say that something was good just because the Allied powers in World War II did it.  The Allied Powers also had eugenics programs and tested radioactive materials on the mentally handicapped on occasion; must those things also be beyond question because "The allies did it!"?

As I said, this is EXACTLY how John Walker Lindh got started. How do I know you're not going to go fight on their side, there...or here, since you're supporting them more than America's interests?

Again, reread my posts....tell me where you can find me supporting any killing of civilians at all. 

My question to you is: How do I know you're not going to support transforming my country into a genocidal, warmongering regime designed to destroy Islam? 

Or is that not a bad thing in your eyes?