On the effectiveness of masks

[Ron]

The data doesn't look so good. I suspect the mask thing won't make it all the way through 2021.

In the meantime I wear the mask because I still have a mortgage and live in a blue state.

https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

[MillCreek]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

Ron, so you can give appropriate weight to the opinions of AAPS, be sure to read the Wiki.  In a nutshell, they are not taken seriously by the majority of the medical community.

[Ben]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

Ron, so you can give appropriate weight to the opinions of AAPS, be sure to read the Wiki.  In a nutshell, they are not taken seriously by the majority of the medical community.

But are they not taken seriously by other organizations for their actual medical philosophy, or for stuff like this:

The AAPS opposes gun control and does not recognize handgun violence as a public health problem. Instead, the AAPS insists that handguns save lives, and that gun research sponsored by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is politically motivated "junk science"

I would submit that any physician who asks me if I have a gun in the house as part of a routine medical workup is a physician I won't trust with my health. The wiki sounds like it was written by someone who doesn't like them politically, vs for their medical expertise or lack thereof.

[Ron]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

Ron, so you can give appropriate weight to the opinions of AAPS, be sure to read the Wiki.  In a nutshell, they are not taken seriously by the majority of the medical community.

The studies they site aren't their studies.

All they've done is collate them into one article.

You know as well as I do there never has been a good study that makes a slam dunk case for masks.

It's a "best practices" thing that probably doesn't hurt if done properly.

I've been hanging my hat on the potential for reducing the viral load spread from infected to uninfected. That seems to be about the best we can hope for with the whole mask wearing mandate. Hope is the right word also because the studies just aren't that conclusive.

[dogmush]

One of the most amazing things to me about 2020 is that more than 150 years after Joseph Lister, otherwise literate adults are claiming that surgical masks have no effect on spreading infection.

[Perd Hapley]

One of the most amazing things to me about 2020 is that more than 150 years after Joseph Lister, otherwise literate adults are claiming that surgical masks have no effect on spreading infection.

Did you look at the linked webpage?

[Ron]

One of the most amazing things to me about 2020 is that more than 150 years after Joseph Lister, otherwise literate adults are claiming that surgical masks have no effect on spreading infection.

Surgical masks in surgery are to prevent large droplets from entering open wounds aren't they? I'm assuming they have studied that and found masks to have better outcomes than not wearing them. I haven't looked into that application truth be told.

Concerning aerosolized droplets containing a respiratory virus, the studies just aren't very comforting.

The best that can be said is it might be better than nothing.

I wear a mask and gloves for around eight hours a day at work. I was only off of work for four weeks, so it's been a pretty long haul wearing PPE for a non healthcare worker.

Since I've been following that protocol I've had a minor cold and a minor sore throat. That doesn't boost my confidence that I'm protected from the corona. (maybe I've already been exposed?)

  

[MillCreek]

But are they not taken seriously by other organizations for their actual medical philosophy, or for stuff like this:

I would submit that any physician who asks me if I have a gun in the house as part of a routine medical workup is a physician I won't trust with my health. The wiki sounds like it was written by someone who doesn't like them politically, vs for their medical expertise or lack thereof.

I suspect the skepticism about the organization is more based on this (from the wiki):

The association has promoted a range of scientifically discredited hypotheses, including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, that being gay reduces life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer, and that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism. It is opposed to the Affordable Care Act and other forms of universal health insurance.

But certainly, if they are in congruence with your views on gun control, embrace the organization.

[Ron]

I suspect the skepticism about the organization is more based on this (from the wiki):

The association has promoted a range of scientifically discredited hypotheses, including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, that being gay reduces life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer, and that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism. It is opposed to the Affordable Care Act and other forms of universal health insurance.

But certainly, if they are in congruence with your views on gun control, embrace the organization.

The studies quoted at length have no connection to the organization.

Any thoughts on the content or are we just going to stick with character assassination?

We can probably have a lot of fun looking at some of the folks promoting the mask mandates. Not sure how much information that would convey, or maybe I'm wrong, maybe that would be enlightening.

Just to be clear, I'm ok with folks wearing masks. Everyone does risk analysis for themselves and loved ones all the time.

As mentioned, I wear a mask over 40 hours a week so telling somebody not to wear a mask would be an odd stance for me to take to say the least.

I'm just trying to suss out what is true and what is theater to calm the herd, or scare the herd for that matter.

[MillCreek]

In a nutshell, many of the studies are cherry-picked to support the contention of the author or have been supplanted by the results of other studies.  This is a very dynamic area of clinical research, and conclusions and protocols that were in place months ago, for example, have changed as a result of additional research, supply chain issues, or political considerations.  I encourage people to conduct their own research at PubMed, the best medical literature search engine in the world, and draw your own conclusions: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/

PS: If I could get access to them, every time I leave the house, in order to comply with Washington state law, I would be wearing a properly-fitted N95 mask (I used to do the fit tests).  Unfortunately, however, I cannot lay my hands on a supply of legitimate N95 masks.  Even my multi-state healthcare system has to ration them out only for certain clinical scenarios, since we don't have enough, and will not have enough for months, to issue them widely.

[Ben]

But certainly, if they are in congruence with your views on gun control, embrace the organization.

I'm not embracing them. I'm suggesting the people who object to them may be doing so for their own political, not scientific biases. Like the notion that guns are a health issue. Or that being against the ACA loses you scientific credibility.

[dogmush]

Did you look at the linked webpage?

I did.  It was self contradictory enough to make me wonder if Marilyn M. Singleton, M.D., J.D. fits in the previously mentioned "otherwise literate adult" group.

But since you asked:

Droplets

Virus is transmitted through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs, sneezes, or talks.
Larger respiratory droplets (>5 μm) remain in the air for only a short time and travel only short distances, generally <1 meter. They fall to the ground quickly.https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30245-9/fulltext
This idea guides the CDC’s advice to maintain at least a 6-foot distance.
Small (<5 μm) aerosolized droplets can remain in the air for at least 3 hours and travel long distances (up to 27 ft.).
https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?articleTools=true;
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars/special-ep-masks;
https://www.nap.edu/catalog/25769/rapid-expert-consultation-on-the-possibility-of-bioaerosol-spread-of-sars-cov-2-for-the-covid-19-pandemic-april-1-2020

Study measuring filter efficiency (2010)
https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/54/7/789/202744; https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data; https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/54/7/789/202744
Filter efficiency was measured across a wide range of small particle sizes (0.02 to 1 µm) at 33 and 99 L/min.
All the cloth masks and materials had near zero efficiency at 0.3 µm, a particle size that easily penetrates into the lung (SARS-CoV-2 is 0.125 µm)
Efficiency for the entire range of particles
T-shirts — 10%
Scarves — 10% to 20%
Cloth masks — 10% to 30%
Sweatshirts — 20% to 40%
Towels — 40%

Study measuring filter efficiency (2014, Korea)
https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-13-06-oa-0201
Evaluated 44 masks, respirators, and other materials with similar methods and small aerosols (0.08 and 0.22 µm)
N95 FFR filter — >95% efficiency
Medical masks — 55% efficiency
General (cloth) masks — 38% efficiency
Handkerchiefs — 2% (one layer) to 13% (four layers) efficiency.

So from that page it would seem that cloth masks have 25 (ish)% (at least) efficacy at filtering out the droplets of saliva that carry SARS-COV-2, especially the larger ones.  So it would seem that wearing one when you are inside and can't maintain the 6 ft of distance would provide a measurable increase in safety, without depleting the stocks of surgical masks and N95 respirators that high risk workers might need.

Assuming of course that you are not outsmarted by said cloth mask, either in the wearing, donning and doffing, and cleaning.


Again, after more than 150 years of germ theory in hospitals otherwise literate adults are arguing that surgical masks provide no benefit.  No one said they were 100%.  Feel free to go MOPP 4 if that's what you want.  They just help a little, in addition to distance and hygiene.  FFS.

[TommyGunn]

But do masks stop THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN?? ?? ??       .......   

[Ben]

Assuming of course that you are not outsmarted by said cloth mask, either in the wearing, donning and doffing, and cleaning.

Which from my observations, conservatively 50% of mask wearers are. Not to mention touching gas pumps, shopping carts, vegetables in the produce section, etc. then running your hands all over your face and everything around you.

Hand washing and sanitizing - just as important as mask wearing - have completely fallen into the background, and people with masks worn below their noses are screaming at people 20 feet away from them for not wearing a mask. Though they have no problem sitting six feet from them while eating in a restaurant with no one wearing masks.

[MillCreek]

^^^I agree with Ben in that masking is just part of good infection control practice, and there is not enough emphasis on social distancing and handwashing, in my view.

[TommyGunn]

Which from my observations, conservatively 50% of mask wearers are. Not to mention touching gas pumps, shopping carts, vegetables in the produce section, etc. then running your hands all over your face and everything around you.

Hand washing and sanitizing - just as important as mask wearing - have completely fallen into the background, and people with masks worn below their noses are screaming at people 20 feet away from them for not wearing a mask. Though they have no problem sitting six feet from them while eating in a restaurant with no one wearing masks.

I've yet to find a mask with a piehole.      

[dogmush]

^^^I agree with Ben in that masking is just part of good infection control practice, and there is not enough emphasis on social distancing and handwashing, in my view.

Definately.

[RoadKingLarry]

But do masks stop THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN?? ?? ??       .......   

Never kind about the Andromeda strain. What about the Pax?

[bedlamite]

Never kind about the Andromeda strain. What about the Pax?

You're not supposed to talk about the g-23 paxilon hydrochlorate.

[dogmush]

I've yet to find a mask with a piehole.      

https://youtu.be/cKLaomvBUc0

May effect filtering efficacy.

[TommyGunn]

https://youtu.be/cKLaomvBUc0

May effect filtering efficacy.

  Well,  I sure learn a LOT I did not previously know on this website.  Some of the other videos there are even .... .... worse, if that's possible .... 

[230RN]

I'm operating on the chicken soup theory.  Might do some good, can't do any harm.  (Except for the inconvenience.)

My suspicion about  the variable results revolves around (A) investigator bias and (B) the sealing of the mask factor --some do, some don't.  We'll see later if we can get unbiased studies from unbiased investigators and masks that seal pretty positively most of the time.  Oh, and Ns greater than one.

I did mention here on APS a while ago that a possible real benefit, fake studies and sealing aside, is that it discourages face-touching when out and about.

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=61772.msg1240312#msg1240312

I'm also thinking that, like salt air droplets from the ocean, after the airborne fluid evaporates, the remaining solid matter (germs or microscopic salt particles) can still drift around.

Terry, 230RN

[Perd Hapley]

I don't know why there's so much interest in whether masks work, but so little interest in whether requiring masks for people who don't want them actually works. Given so many people wear them under their nose or chin, or constantly move them up and down, I'm very skeptical there's any public health benefit to a mask mandate, instead of just encouraging or normalizing masks.

[Ben]

just encouraging or normalizing masks.

It doesn't matter as much to me since I don't work anymore and try to live like a hermit, but if anything good comes out of all this, it would be normalizing masks for when people have a cold, flu, etc but insist on going into work and everywhere else while contagious.

Someone who insists on walking around contagious oughta wear a mask, and people shouldn't look askance at them. Conversely, if I want to mitigate catching an inconsiderate jackass's cold at work, wearing a mask should be looked at no different than wearing a raincoat when it rains. It's not perfect protection, but risk mitigation.

[RoadKingLarry]

One major plus of masks that doesn't get much airtime, they pretty effectively defeat facial recognition.