On the effectiveness of masks

[zxcvbob]

One major plus of masks that doesn't get much airtime, they pretty effectively defeat facial recognition.

Facial recognition software seems to be getting better.  My work PC has Windows Hello with facial recognition.  Used to be, if I was wearing a mask it didn't recognize me and I had to sign in using a PIN.  Now a couple of months later (and I haven't recalibrated anything) it logs me in just fine with the mask.  Although perhaps they just turned down the sensitivity.

[TommyGunn]

One major plus of masks that doesn't get much airtime, they pretty effectively defeat facial recognition.

Well,   otoh,  I've noted I can make snide faces at annoying people and not be noticed.      .....  

[Ron]

https://twitter.com/MaybeAmes/status/1277967977510404096

[dogmush]

https://twitter.com/MaybeAmes/status/1277967977510404096

"not providing perfect pertection"  

Yep, we already covered that.  see previous page on filtration effectivness percentages for dual layer cloth masks.

"People touch their faces....can get schmutz inside"

Yep, we covered not being outsmarted by the mask.  Honestly, I'm at the point where if someone wears a mask wrong, doesn't wash it, or rubs their face with unwashed hands, get *expletive deleted*ed; Stay *expletive deleted*ed.  that person sucks at adulting.

"right now people in the US shouldn't walk around with masks"

hmmm..[googles "fauci 60 minutes interview]  that was March 8th, 2020.  I wonder if anything at all in the US has changed in the last 7 months?  Perhaps Dr. Fauci has updated his thoughts?

Ah Here it is, on April 3rd:

So, even though the perfect solution to this is if everyone at all times could stay six feet separated from another person, but, as you correctly mentioned, this is not always feasible. There are times when you have to do necessary functions.

You have to get food. You have to get drugs from the pharmacy. And you might inadvertently be in a situation where you're close enough where that kind of transmission can take place.

And, importantly, I think what people don't fully appreciate is that putting a mask on yourself is more to prevent you from infecting someone else. And if everybody does that, we're each protecting each other, because the data is, it's more efficient to prevent transmitting to others than it is to prevent transmission to yourself.

But you can completely cover that ballpark if, essentially, universally, when people go out and are in a situation where they might come into closer contact, that they wear that mask.

So what point were you trying to make by sharing that twitter post, Ron?

[MechAg94]

I don't know why there's so much interest in whether masks work, but so little interest in whether requiring masks for people who don't want them actually works. Given so many people wear them under their nose or chin, or constantly move them up and down, I'm very skeptical there's any public health benefit to a mask mandate, instead of just encouraging or normalizing masks.

That is similar to what I recently heard discussed.  Masks work in hospitals because they have the right masks with the right materials and they are trained in their use.  Requiring masks for everyone means people are encouraged to wear anything, they wear dirty masks, and they end up touching their face even more than if they wore no mask.  

It is funny that the mask nazis start arguments with people for not wearing masks are putting themselves at more risk.

[MechAg94]

"not providing perfect pertection"  

Yep, we already covered that.  see previous page on filtration effectivness percentages for dual layer cloth masks.

"People touch their faces....can get schmutz inside"

Yep, we covered not being outsmarted by the mask.  Honestly, I'm at the point where if someone wears a mask wrong, doesn't wash it, or rubs their face with unwashed hands, get *expletive deleted*ed; Stay *expletive deleted*ed.  that person sucks at adulting.

"right now people in the US shouldn't walk around with masks"

hmmm..[googles "fauci 60 minutes interview]  that was March 8th, 2020.  I wonder if anything at all in the US has changed in the last 7 months?  Perhaps Dr. Fauci has updated his thoughts?

Ah Here it is, on April 3rd:

So what point were you trying to make by sharing that twitter post, Ron?

Dr. Fauci also said people should not wear masks.  From what I heard, it was because he knew people wouldn't follow all the rules for masks and it might be worse than not using one. 

[makattak]

I will freely admit I wear the mask wrong. Because it's stupid and a tyrannical exercise of power that I must bow to because I'd like to buy food AND I'd rather not hassle the poor workers who have been forced to be enforcers for the state's edicts.

This disease isn't that bad. This isn't the Andromeda strain like so many of my wife's millennial friends believe.¹

FURTHER, I haven't seen any information about asymptomatic transmission in some time. IF you are supposed to stay home when you are sick, then the masks are only there for asymptomatic transmission. What is the likelihood of an asymptomatic carrier passing the disease? (Not the virus (SARS-CoV-2), as we seem to be measuring, but actually passing the disease (COVID-19)). That's rather important, but no one is reporting what the chances of passing it asymptomatically are.²

IF, instead, this is about people going out while sick and we're just making EVERYONE wear masks because we don't want the sick people to feel like they are singled out, then that is exactly the kind of stupid philosophy the liberals have taught in schools RATHER THAN something actually beneficial.

HOW ABOUT we insist people with any symptoms wear masks and let the rest of the people go about their business normally? Also stop making children wear masks when it has been known worldwide and shown REPEATEDLY even in this country that they are neither at risk for the disease nor vectors for it.

But, nope. Even children are forced to wear masks under the orders of our arbitrary and capricious leaders.






1: Seriously, one told his roommates that they have "HIS BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS" if they go out. He's in his 30s and otherwise healthy, but is certain the Wuhan coronavirus is going to kill him.

2: Maybe I'm just missing it, but this was something greatly discussed at the beginning of the pandemic that, like death rate, seems to just have been dropped from the reporting...

[Ron]

1 - The mask is not going to protect you from getting Covid-19.

2 - The mask isn't going to keep you from spreading Covid-19.

3 - During this "pandemic" masks have had nearly an unidentifiable impact on the spread of the virus.

As Dr. Fauci alludes to, there is the possibility that a mask may lower the viral load exhaled or inhaled if all the folks in the room are wearing their masks properly.

Don't get me started on the foolishness of wearing masks outside in the fresh air and sunshine.

Has there been any conformation of infection from surfaces anywhere? I'm sort of burnt out on the subject so I haven't kept entirely up to date.

Mostly I'll read an article if it has a unique take or offers something more than the party line boilerplate.

I posted the video because what he says was the accepted wisdom up until the politicization of the whole Covid 19 panic and mass delusion.

[TommyGunn]

Dr. Fauci also said people should not wear masks.  From what I heard, it was because he knew people wouldn't follow all the rules for masks and it might be worse than not using one. 

It was because there was a shortage of masks and they didn't want the unwashed masses to hoard them all and make medical professionals fall short.

In other words it was a LIE.



Understandable, perhaps,  but I remain unimpressed.

[dogmush]

1 - The mask is not going to protect you from getting Covid-19.

2 - The mask isn't going to keep you from spreading Covid-19.

3 - During this "pandemic" masks have had nearly an unidentifiable impact on the spread of the virus.

As Dr. Fauci alludes to, there is the possibility that a mask may lower the viral load exhaled or inhaled if all the folks in the room are wearing their masks properly.

Don't get me started on the foolishness of wearing masks outside in the fresh air and sunshine.

Has there been any conformation of infection from surfaces anywhere? I'm sort of burnt out on the subject so I haven't kept entirely up to date.

Mostly I'll read an article if it has a unique take or offers something more than the party line boilerplate.

I posted the video because what he says was the accepted wisdom up until the politicization of the whole Covid 19 panic and mass delusion.

Item 1 and 2 are untrue, and refuted by the web page YOU posted in the OP.  A mask may do either of those things not 100%, but not 0% either.

Item 3 harder to isolate because countries and localities that succeeded in enforcing mask mandates also did other things to slow the spread, but at minimum they are measurably correlated.  

I agree with you on masks outside.  They are PPE for when you need to be in proximity to other people.


If you have a problem with the social engineering part of mask mandates, that's a reasonable discussion.  If you think executive branches exceeded their authority all over the country in mandating masks (and other things) without legislative input, I agree with you.  If you think most people don't wear masks correctly and that limits their widespread usefulness, I also agree with you.

But to argue that correctly worn masks are ineffective PPE against spread of droplet borne diseases is just ignorant. There's no other word for it.  Stupefyingly ignorant.

[makattak]

But to argue that correctly worn masks are ineffective PPE against spread of droplet borne diseases is just ignorant. There's no other word for it.  Stupefyingly ignorant.

I'll argue that it is ineffective in fighting the disease, IF asymptomatic people don't spread the disease. These masks are more effective at preventing the wearer from spreading the disease than from preventing the wearer from acquiring the disease.

As such, it's arbitrary and capricious to force asymptomatic people to wear the masks if they aren't spreading the disease.

FURTHER, it's prolonging the spread to prevent healthy people from catching this disease and building herd immunity.

(See e.g. Sweden vs France right now.)

(And all this is ignoring the other stupid, harmful, counterproductive, and deadly consequences of this and other government ham-handedness.)

[dogmush]

FURTHER, it's prolonging the spread to prevent healthy people from catching this disease and building herd immunity.

(See e.g. Sweden vs France right now.)

I'm not sure what you're seeing, but the Johns Hopkins graphs are showing 2nd wave case rates in both those countries starting around 1 Sep.  Raw numbers of Sweden's are lower, of course, but it is both a much smaller population, and much less dense.

France looks to be getting hit worse, but there's just from case rates in Sweden there's no evidence of any herd immunity. If anything the case rates are climbing faster than they did for the first bout.


ETA:  While reading several articles about Sweden and it's strategy I find several versions of this quote:

"Our strategy has been consistent and sustainable. We probably have a lower risk of spread here compared to other countries," said Jonas Ludvigsson, professor of epidemiology at Karolinska Institutet, adding that Sweden likely had a higher level of immunity in the population than most countries.

"I think we benefit a lot from that now," he said.

Straying from the approach taken by the rest of Europe, and perhaps the world, Sweden avoided a lockdown and instead emphasized personal responsibility, social distancing and good hygiene in a bid to slow rather than eradicate a disease deemed here to stay.

This is more a sociology statement then one strictly COVID related, but that seems a strategy you can really only do in a mostly heterogenous society with high social trust.  I think it's also worth remembering that the appropriate pandemic strategy needs to be tailored to the population it's aimed at.  I said all summer that national, and even state mandates in the US were stupid, as what is good and needed for public health in NYC, might be stupidly smothering in Bumfuck, Upstate.  I really think the biggest issue with the US response to COVID has been trying to have static, blanket responses for huge populations, instead of letting the local government do what their town needed, and have the states and feds back them up with resources.  In that, Mak is spot on with his "arbitrary and capricious" comment.

[makattak]

I'm not sure what you're seeing, but the Johns Hopkins graphs are showing 2nd wave case rates in both those countries starting around 1 Sep.  Raw numbers of Sweden's are lower, of course, but it is both a much smaller population, and much less dense.

France looks to be getting hit worse, but there's just from case rates in Sweden there's no evidence of any herd immunity. If anything the case rates are climbing faster than they did for the first bout.

Sweden has had 60 deaths in the past month from Covid.

France, 1587.

Sweden popolation ~ 10M
France population ~ 65M

I think 1500 is a little more than 6 times 60.

[dogmush]

.....Right....which is why I said that France looked to be getting hit worse...

If you look at Sweden's case count for May-Jul (first wave-ish) and the case trend for Sep (start of second wave ish) they are pretty similar, except the case count is climbing faster now than it did last Spring, which is not indicative of a large immune population.

Also I added stuff to my last post, and we cross posted.

[MechAg94]

Anyone know where I can get an N95 mask similar to this.  I want to wear what the professionals wear.

[RocketMan]

Anyone know where I can get an N95 mask similar to this.  I want to wear what the professionals wear.

That one only works when the cameras are on.

[tokugawa]

I am sick of it.

Just another excuse for some *expletive deleted*ck wad to get in your face over something. Claiming that that some else's failure to wear a mask puts them at risk is utter bullshit.  So they are OK with the half ass bandanna's and nose free surgical masks and all the other BS, and OK with wearing the same damn one for days, at the end of a freaking virus that amounts to a piss in the wind? *expletive deleted*ck that.   The all cause death rate now is dropping below the norm.

 It's BS start to finish for the purposes of enabling one person to get off on telling another person what to do.
 
 I think this entire thing was basically a political tool for the marxists. Just like climate change , or any other emergency of the week- a tool, designed to leverage submission. It was all propaganda. The great con.

 Safety sucks. It has been the mantra to steal our freedoms for years, and they finally figured out people are so indoctrinated to safety first they will happily toss their rights in the dumpster for an illusion.

 

[TommyGunn]

Item 1 and 2 are untrue, and refuted by the web page YOU posted in the OP.  A mask may do either of those things not 100%, but not 0% either.

Item 3 harder to isolate because countries and localities that succeeded in enforcing mask mandates also did other things to slow the spread, but at minimum they are measurably correlated.  

I agree with you on masks outside.  They are PPE for when you need to be in proximity to other people.


If you have a problem with the social engineering part of mask mandates, that's a reasonable discussion.  If you think executive branches exceeded their authority all over the country in mandating masks (and other things) without legislative input, I agree with you.  If you think most people don't wear masks correctly and that limits their widespread usefulness, I also agree with you.

But to argue that correctly worn masks are ineffective PPE against spread of droplet borne diseases is just ignorant. There's no other word for it.  Stupefyingly ignorant.

Read the linked article in Ron's post #1.  The article (I am not endorsing it) leads me to believe masks have highly questionable utility.   It seems authoritative .... to me .....

I am not claiming, for MY part, masks are useless.  I tend to think their effectiveness may be more "macro" level than individual level.   


Other information I've heard regarding Sweden indicates a @200 infection rate per day.  They may be into wave #2 but they're doing much better than European countries and haven't trashed their economy like those countries .... and the U. S. A. 

We didn't shut down during the Spanish Flu like we did for covid19.  I think it was a horrible mistake .... but we're stuck with it and the consequences ..... and hopefully learn from it (though I fear we will not.).

[Ron]

There is plenty of research out there that the mask mandators can cherry pick to support their demands.

Everyone can go to PubMed and find something to support their position 





 

[MillCreek]

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

"The science supports that face coverings are saving lives during the coronavirus pandemic, and yet the debate trundles on. How much evidence is enough?"

[Ron]

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

"The science supports that face coverings are saving lives during the coronavirus pandemic, and yet the debate trundles on. How much evidence is enough?"

Did you read the article? It's an opinion piece by it's very construction. So many qualifiers and appeals to (some) authorities that it really isn't a scientific article.

It certainly didn't make the case as definitively as the lead states. In fact the article admits the data is messy and confusing as it falls back on the argument that some authorities think masks should help. The worst case scenario is these authorities think masks should lower the viral load you're exposed to if you are around someone who is shedding the virus.

I'm actually beginning to think the mask debate is a distraction to keep other facets of this whole debacle from being discussed.

Every aspect of this has been politicized and like so many of the other big events, particularly in the USA, there is so much conflicting information and cognitive dissonance being propagated that I don't blame folks for being skeptical.

It boils down to folks listening to the authorities who are saying "seriously, we're not lying this time, we're really not full of *expletive deleted*it on this one".    

The precautionary principle and fear is all that is keeping the mask mania going.

[MillCreek]

Did you read the article? It's an opinion piece by it's very construction. So many qualifiers and appeals to (some) authorities that it really isn't a scientific article.

Of course it isn't. It is a news feature rather than a peer-reviewed paper.  Nature publishes both, but this is a news article. It says that at the very top of the page.

[makattak]

It doesn't really matter how effective the masks are¹, what they are is UNNECESSARY for the vast majority of people.

I will note the opinion article² makes no note of asymptomatic transmission.

It also doesn't talk about the fact that this disease is less deadly than the flu for people under the age of 40. (Probably 50-55, even, but I'll be conservative.)

If we aren't forcing people to walk around in masks for the flu season³ then we need to tell the vast majority of people- the young, healthy people- to stop living in fear and go back to normal. Not the "new normal", just normal.

If you're at risk, THEN adjust your life. We need to stop killing more people with the cure than the disease.


1: Going about my business I'm going to say "not very effective" given the how that vast majority of them are worn.

2: AND it's from NATURE which has made it's ideological stance well known. It's a "BELIEVE IN SCIENCE!!1!!!1" publication, not a science publication.

3: and forcing children to learn from home during the flu season since the flu killed 188 under age 17 last year and the Wuhan disease has killed 77 under age 15. (The CDC is lumping all ages 15-24 together, and I'm betting there's a reason they aren't using the same methodology as for the flu.)

[Perd Hapley]

Masks:

Effective? Yeah, OK, sure, if worn correctly.

Reasonable for people to wear in public, indoor spaces? Perhaps.

Is it reasonable to require them? No. Go pound sand.

[makattak]

I've had a revelation while talking to my wife about the Speaker of the House continually touching and readjusting her mask.

The masks are all theatre, and most people are aware of it.

IF this was an actually deadly disease, people would make a point of using the masks correctly. Masks would then be effective against diseases that pose an actual danger.

BECAUSE this disease isn't all that deadly and BECAUSE people can tell it's not a big deal¹, they follow the rules, but they don't actually keep the mask on right.

Watch the crazy mask nazis who are always touching and pulling and rearranging their masks. It's for SHOW not protection. Our "elites" prove this every day.

This is, of course, not only pointless and tyrannical, it makes it less likely people will take proper precautions if an actually dangerous disease comes along. They'll have been trained that haphazard, useless masks are what will work. It's counterproductive.




1: Most people, that is. I've mentioned before about the crazy millennials who think this is going to kill them.