Author Topic: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread  (Read 342888 times)

Mk-211

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4025 on: December 30, 2024, 06:15:58 PM »
Where's Darth Vader when you need him?

https://youtu.be/7NavIkEwm8U?si=Yc2Qy7SpAETLlwr6

Perd Hapley

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4026 on: December 31, 2024, 11:36:36 AM »
Don't remember.

I became acutely aware of it a few years ago when the daughter of Evangelical friends across town enlisted in the Army. When I enlisted, Christians were given a [very] small copy of the New Testament upon arrival at Basic Training. I still have mine. I had heard that the Army doesn't do that any more, so I took it upon myself to provide something similar for the young lady. I knew their church doesn't use the Revised Standard or New Revised Standard  version of the Bible but I wasn't looking for a complete Bible, only a New Testament. I had a lot of trouble finding anything that seemed to actually convey the Bible as I understand it (I was brought up on the King James version, and our church switched to the Revised Standard Version somewhere in mid-grammar school) and which was written in more modern language such as their church uses.

Along the way I encountered several versions that clearly were not translations of any authentic codexes, but which were clearly and admittedly just restatements of Scripture in woke-ese.

OK. Without knowing what issues you're seeing, I can only say there are a number of good options that are commonly available. Looking just at the widely available versions, the New King James will be the closest to the one you were raised with (the King James is still ubiquitous, if you want to go that route). The New American Standard is often considered the closest to a word-for-word translation of the original languages. I recommend the '95 revision, or the original, but those are getting harder to find these days. If you want a version that's easier to read, the English Standard Version, Christian Standard Bible, and New Living Translation are all good choices. The ESV is actually a revision of the Revised Standard from 1952. The RSV has been effectively replaced by the NRSV, as you probably know. Not my favorite, but it's the Word of God, so...

If you want to stay with the same early-modern textual basis as the King James, the New King James is about the only "new" translation that offers that. There are a few others, but they've never been very popular. Most newer translations have been influenced by the older manuscripts, for good or ill.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4027 on: December 31, 2024, 12:11:34 PM »
The little New Testaments were probably given by Gideons International.  I have a very old white one; it was probably given to my mother when she was a nurse.

NKJV is good; it is pretty much classic King James with the language modernized to make it easier to read.  I think NKJV is owned by Thomas Nelson publishing.  I also have a paperback ESV that I use sometimes, and I have no complaints with it.
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dogmush

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4028 on: December 31, 2024, 12:28:18 PM »
...

The ESV is actually a revision of the Revised Standard from 1952. The RSV has been effectively replaced by the NRSV, as you probably know. Not my favorite, but it's the Word of God, so...

If you want to stay with the same early-modern textual basis as the King James, the New King James is about the only "new" translation that offers that. There are a few others, but they've never been very popular. Most newer translations have been influenced by the older manuscripts, for good or ill.

Honest question:  How many Revisions can it go through before it's not really the Word of God anymore?  Like, I assume someone with ill intent could do a "translation" that just crosses into heresy and call it the "New Revised Bible for Modern Audiences" or some such.  So how do you decide which Revision has kept the "Literal Word of God" part?  Does one just read a new revision and see if it's close enough in meaning to an older revision that was accepted?  Are there scholars that know Ancient Greek and Aramaic and read new revisions to let the community know if it's still the Word?

I'm not being snarky.  One of the things that has always confused me about Christianity is the insistence (by some Christians) that the bible is the literal Word of God.  Like, Which one? I know the broad strokes don't change all that much between versions, but man some of the words sure do.

Sorry for the thread drift.

WLJ

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4029 on: December 31, 2024, 12:36:12 PM »
Honest question:  How many Revisions can it go through before it's not really the Word of God anymore?  Like, I assume someone with ill intent could do a "translation" that just crosses into heresy and call it the "New Revised Bible for Modern Audiences" or some such.  So how do you decide which Revision has kept the "Literal Word of God" part?  Does one just read a new revision and see if it's close enough in meaning to an older revision that was accepted?  Are there scholars that know Ancient Greek and Aramaic and read new revisions to let the community know if it's still the Word?

I'm not being snarky.  One of the things that has always confused me about Christianity is the insistence (by some Christians) that the bible is the literal Word of God.  Like, Which one? I know the broad strokes don't change all that much between versions, but man some of the words sure do.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Ship of Theseus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
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WLJ

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“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

dogmush

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4031 on: December 31, 2024, 01:12:35 PM »

https://x.com/LibertyCappy/status/1874153408615375307


If we are not being racist enough fo rthem they will make up racisim to fulfil demand.

zxcvbob

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4032 on: December 31, 2024, 01:51:34 PM »
Honest question:  How many Revisions can it go through before it's not really the Word of God anymore?  Like, I assume someone with ill intent could do a "translation" that just crosses into heresy and call it the "New Revised Bible for Modern Audiences" or some such.  So how do you decide which Revision has kept the "Literal Word of God" part?  Does one just read a new revision and see if it's close enough in meaning to an older revision that was accepted?  Are there scholars that know Ancient Greek and Aramaic and read new revisions to let the community know if it's still the Word?

I'm not being snarky.  One of the things that has always confused me about Christianity is the insistence (by some Christians) that the bible is the literal Word of God.  Like, Which one? I know the broad strokes don't change all that much between versions, but man some of the words sure do.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Yes there are scholars that can read ancient Hebrew, ancient Greek, and Aramaic, and can give opinions on whether translation of a particular verse into English is good or not.  But part of the problem is which original text are you going to use?  The Masoretic Text or the Greek Septuagint?  The Septuagint has already been translated once which induces errors, but it is much older snapshot than the Masoretic, and time induces errors.  The Dead Sea Scrolls are older than either; from what I've heard sometimes they match the Masoretic better and sometimes they agree with the Septuagint.

A Hebrew word might just be 3 consonants and no vowels; the vowels are implied, and what vowels you choose can change the meaning.  They try to figure it out from the context, but the scholars don't always agree.  My pastor has pointed this out in Sunday School a few times where one of his has a translation that says one thing and someone's else's uses a totally different word.  (but generally the overall meaning is the same either way)

An example just of the changing language is John 15:13.  The KJV says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends".  Most modern translations change that from "man" to the pronoun "one", and I think that's a good change because it it makes it more clear that a woman is capable of sacrificing herself as well without actually changing the meaning at all.

OTOH I think it's the NIV 2011 but I'm not sure; one translation has started using "they" as a singular 3rd person pronoun for someone of undisclosed sex.  That's become common lately in verbal English, but to see it in print in a scholarly work is jarring and distracting to me.
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HankB

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4033 on: December 31, 2024, 02:31:49 PM »
Ship of Theseus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
Reminds me of the Clinton AWB which restricted purchase of new standard capacity magazines, but DIDN'T prohibit the repair of old ones. Some people got repair kits and replaced the magazine body, the floorplate, the spring, and the follower of their old, heavily used mags . . .  ;)

As for the different Bible versions - they seem to differ more than can be accounted for by translation disputes of ancient records. I have nowhere near the Biblical expertise that some people here apparently do, but it always bothered me that there were people (King James and his minions?) who thought they were fit to edit the words of the Almighty.
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griz

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4034 on: December 31, 2024, 02:47:07 PM »
Honest question:  How many Revisions can it go through before it's not really the Word of God anymore?

I've wondered about that a long time.  Clearly there are more knowledgeable people here who have explained it.  But as far as the literal "word of God" part of the question:  The fact that we have different Christian faiths, working from the same book in the same language, that can't even agree on what the word of God IS, tells us we can't know for sure.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4035 on: December 31, 2024, 04:46:37 PM »
Honest question:  How many Revisions can it go through before it's not really the Word of God anymore? 

Revision (done well) goes the other way. It's not revising what God said; it's revising modern-language Bibles to conform to what God said. This happens in at least 3 different ways.

First, the languages we use today go through changes. That's why the KJV of 1611 is slightly different from the KJV of 1769 (that's most KJVs printed today). Obviously, some people prefer an old-timey-sounding Bible. I'm currently reading through the KJV for the first time, just because I like the "sound" of it. But there are complications when people today try to understand a Bible version from 400 years ago.

Secondly, thousands of very ancient manuscripts (from complete documents to fragments) have been discovered since the initial round of Reformation-era translations in the 16th-17th centuries. Some of those have corrected our ideas about what the original autographs of Scripture really said, but none of them were so consequential that it made the old translations obsolete.

Third, there have also been advances in our understanding of ancient languages. Here is a famous example:
https://www.journaloftheology.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sharps_Rule_A_Summary-1.pdf


One problem some people have here is they believe each revision or translation is just part of a long game of telephone, where errors constantly build up, until it really is a ship of Theseus at the end. In reality, the latest revision or translation can (and will be) checked against documents from thousands of years ago. English translations are compared to ancient Syrian ones. Spanish versions are compared to ancient Hebrew, etc.


Quote
Like, I assume someone with ill intent could do a "translation" that just crosses into heresy and call it the "New Revised Bible for Modern Audiences" or some such.
 

It happens. The aforementioned Passion Translation, the New World Translation, etc. A lot of people think any English version after the KJV is in that category.

Quote
So how do you decide which Revision has kept the "Literal Word of God" part?  Does one just read a new revision and see if it's close enough in meaning to an older revision that was accepted?  Are there scholars that know Ancient Greek and Aramaic and read new revisions to let the community know if it's still the Word?

Both. One of the reasons why newer translations undergo regular revisions is because people point out shortcomings of various translations.

Quote
I'm not being snarky.  One of the things that has always confused me about Christianity is the insistence (by some Christians) that the bible is the literal Word of God.  Like, Which one? I know the broad strokes don't change all that much between versions, but man some of the words sure do.

All of them. Obviously, not the ones you mentioned above, that promote outright heresy. But all the translations done in good faith are the Word of God. There will definitely be differences of opinion about how to translate anything from one language into another. So it's not surprising there are different versions. But that doesn't mean we don't know everything we need to know of what was originally said. I'm OK with not fully understanding every nuance of something written by God. He could say it in 21st-century English, on a billboard, and I'd still miss something. But God can still get his point across - he's God. He's too divine for us to fully understand, but because he's all-powerful, he can also communicate what he needs to, even to silly creatures like us.

A common bone of contention, when it comes to changes in language, is gender-specific vs gender-neutral language. 200 years ago, no one would read a passage like "the just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him," and think it only applies to men. A lot of "modern versions" will use a word like "person," instead of "man" because so many people today will read "man" in that verse, and think it's excluding women. It's a change that makes sense, at least for "modern audiences" but I still prefer "man," if that's what was in the original language. Turns out, the Hebrew really says something closer to the "the just walk in their integrity," so a man one could translate it either way.

The closest thing we have to serious differences in Bible translation is the question of whether certain passages were originally part of the 1st-century New Testament, but later excluded; or if they were added later, and should no longer be included.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_verses_not_included_in_modern_English_translations

Those sound like serious problems, but including or excluding them hasn't changed major points of Christian doctrine. Also, a lot of those passages are duplicated elsewhere in Scripture, so "removing" them from one book of the Bible doesn't really eliminate them, because they're still there.

I could go on at some length, I guess, but there's only 8 hours left in this year, so...
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

Ben

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4036 on: December 31, 2024, 05:18:59 PM »
Trannies being asked how they got so attractive:

https://twitchy.com/samj/2024/12/31/thread-how-trans-women-became-really-attractive-n2405929

I'll take "delusion" for $1000, Alex.
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HankB

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4037 on: December 31, 2024, 05:37:47 PM »
Trannies being asked how they got so attractive:

https://twitchy.com/samj/2024/12/31/thread-how-trans-women-became-really-attractive-n2405929

I'll take "delusion" for $1000, Alex.
Beer goggles aren't enough.

Unless maybe you're in Scotland.       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQSw56Gxod0
Trump won in 2016. And again in 2024. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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WLJ

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4038 on: December 31, 2024, 05:41:36 PM »
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

WLJ

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4039 on: January 01, 2025, 05:03:44 PM »
I don't even know if I want to know

https://x.com/DefiantLs/status/1874571033149321563
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
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“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

dogmush

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4040 on: January 01, 2025, 06:33:17 PM »
Thanks, Perd.  I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the subject.

Ben

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4041 on: January 01, 2025, 06:45:05 PM »
First, the languages we use today go through changes. That's why the KJV of 1611 is slightly different from the KJV of 1769 (that's most KJVs printed today). Obviously, some people prefer an old-timey-sounding Bible. I'm currently reading through the KJV for the first time, just because I like the "sound" of it. But there are complications when people today try to understand a Bible version from 400 years ago.

Yeah, after many failed attempts, I finally read the Bible from cover to cover last year. The one I chose? Douay Rheims. New Testament written in 1582, Old Testament written in 1610. That was difficult. I then for kicks got the King James and New Catholic Bibles on Kindle and started doing passage comparisons. Most things kept the same general meaning, but were a bit easier to understand. I'm someone who likes the old-timey sounding Bible with the Thees and the Thous, but there are a lot of other 16th century words that are difficult for a modern English speaker. I still think there is value in preserving the older translations though, even if it requires work to understand them.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Ben

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4042 on: January 02, 2025, 07:16:52 PM »
UK again. Old man arrested for a social media post that caused someone anxiety.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1874736747017629851

"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

WLJ

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4043 on: January 05, 2025, 11:52:14 AM »
Did a quick Google search and couldn't find confirmation so it could likely be satire but here it is anyway

https://x.com/LibertyCappy/status/1875939427203367378

“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

Ben

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4044 on: January 08, 2025, 08:47:29 AM »
Oh no! The International Fact Checkers Network is rising up!!!!

What are they going to do? Start a slap fight?

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

https://twitchy.com/brettt/2025/01/07/international-fact-checking-union-convenes-emergency-meeting-n2406285
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Pb

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4045 on: January 08, 2025, 09:16:45 AM »

I'm not being snarky.  One of the things that has always confused me about Christianity is the insistence (by some Christians) that the bible is the literal Word of God.  Like, Which one? I know the broad strokes don't change all that much between versions, but man some of the words sure do.


I wanted to talk about how this question was explained to me. Because I agree, it's a hard question.

All truth is God's truth.

True messages from any source can be messages from God.  The Bible can be both produced by the mind of men and carry a meaning from God.  The particular wording is not important, as long as truth is conveyed.

The Bible is the story that God wants us to know.

That is my perspective anyway.

Angel Eyes

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4046 on: January 08, 2025, 09:31:28 AM »
"The grass really is greener over shallow graves."
                          - Feral Historian

WLJ

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4047 on: January 08, 2025, 09:56:30 AM »
Also not the Bee but it did get a comment from them

Quote
Kyle Mann
@The_Kyle_Mann
I'd like to offer whoever wrote this headline at the New York Times a job at @TheBabylonBee

https://x.com/The_Kyle_Mann/status/1876736612891058683



“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

WLJ

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4048 on: January 08, 2025, 10:00:03 AM »
Also also not The Bee

“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

WLJ

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Re: Maybe we should just start a The World Has Gone Mad thread
« Reply #4049 on: January 10, 2025, 08:32:17 AM »
The government told Sig Sauer to issue a recall for Romeo5 red dots because they didn't tell people not to eat the batteries.
Look I can see their point to a point on the packaging bit but really?

SIG SAUER Recalls ROMEO5 Red Dot Firearm Sights Due to Ingestion Hazard; Violations of Reese’s Law Federal Safety Regulations for Consumer Products with Button Cell Batteries and Child Resistant Button Cell Battery Packaging
https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2025/SIG-SAUER-Recalls-ROMEO5-Red-Dot-Firearm-Sights-Due-to-Ingestion-Hazard-Violations-of-Reeses-Law-Federal-Safety-Regulations-for-Consumer-Products-with-Button-Cell-Batteries-and-Child-Resistant-Button-Cell-Battery-Packaging
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi