Author Topic: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!  (Read 1586 times)

Gewehr98

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Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« on: March 26, 2007, 07:53:05 PM »
http://www.madison.com/tct/mad/local//index.php?ntid=126089

Quote
Real ID roils community
Hundreds turn out for rally against looming legislation
By Ben Popper
Correspondent for The Capital Times

There was a sea of colors at Brittingham Park over the weekend, as hundreds of demonstrators gathered to protest the upcoming passage of the Real ID Act.

Families waved homemade banners and flags, both Mexican and American.

Amanda Postel was attending the protest Saturday with her husband, Carlos Rivas, and their two young children, Samantha and Emo. Amanda grew up in Madison, Carlos in Mexico. They have been married for six years.

"I'm here to stand up for all Latinos, who are going to need licenses to do all kinds of things, from driving a car to opening a bank account," Postel said. "This law will further marginalize a group that is already on edge."

Real ID roils community
Photo by Ben Popper
A speaker takes his turn at the bullhorn to address the hundreds who turned out for a rally Saturday at Brittingham Park to protest the Real ID Act, which takes effect April 1.

The Real ID Act, whose Wisconsin incarnation is ACT 126, is scheduled to go into effect April 1. Nationwide resistance to Real ID is growing. So far, Maine and Idaho have passed legislation rejecting participation, and bills have been introduced in a number of other states.

Rivas, who is a student at Madison Area Technical College, sees a quiet discrimination behind the new laws.

"The people who you see here today come to America to work. If you want to fight terrorism, you're barking up the wrong tree," Rivas said.

Many of those attending the rally held similar concerns about labor.

"Real ID will give employers another way to intimidate workers who are already being exploited," said Saul Castillo, president of the Worker's Rights Center here in Madison.

The rally was supported by a number of Wisconsin unions - Locals 1199, 171, 1942, and the South Central Federation of Labor - who see the increase in black-market workers Real ID will create as detrimental to all wages and employees. Other opponents to the act highlight the high cost of its implementation.

All these concerns about Real ID, however, eventually come up against the question of national security, the original argument behind the new law. Real ID will affect everyone from immigrant workers, to Hmong refugees, to elderly citizens, but it was framed as a way of combating terrorists.

"There are a lot of reasons why Real ID is the wrong way to combat terrorism," said Alex Gilles, political secretary for the Immigrant Workers Union and one of the principle organizers behind the march. "For example the 9/11 Commission report says there is no relation whatsoever between identification and terrorism."

Actually, the 9/11 Commission did see a strong correlation between the two. They called on the federal government directly to strengthen standards for the issuance of birth certificates and driver's licenses.

However, the Commission also saw the danger these kinds of increased security measures would pose to civil liberties, especially in the case of immigrants.

"Our border and immigrations system," the report reads, "ought to send a message of welcome, tolerance, and justice to members of immigrant communities in the United States and in their countries of origin."

The 9/11 Commission saw the political and strategic advantages of this approach: "We should reach out to immigrant communities. Good immigration service is one way of doing so that is valuable in every way - including intelligence."

U.S. Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Menomonee Falls, says he introduced the legislation behind Real ID to prevent another 9/11-type attack.

"The 9/11 hijackers could have used their passports to board the planes, but only one did," he recently told The Capital Times. "Those murderers chose our driver's licenses and state IDs as their forms of identification because these documents allowed them to blend in and not raise suspicion or concern."

The 9/11 Commission, however, found that it was the failure of agencies to properly communicate and share information that let the terrorists slip through the cracks, not their ability to acquire identification.

Two of the 9/11 hijackers, the Commission noted, acquired California licenses and opened New Jersey bank accounts using their real names. One hijacker, Nawaf al-Hazmi, also registered his car and was in the San Diego telephone book.

"The terrorists who came into this country did so legally," Gilles said.

According to the 9/11 Commission, these men were identified on NSA security watch lists as early as 1999. Because they were linked to al-Qaida, they could have been detained for questioning in relation to the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole. What prevented this was a failure of communication and coordination, not easy access to ID.

"The best example I can give you is this," Gilles said. "You want to fight terrorism. If you don't give me an ID, how will you know who I am?"

Published: March 26, 2007
   

Ok, G-98 here, with a big old WTF for the woman who blabbed this to the reporter:

Quote
"I'm here to stand up for all Latinos, who are going to need licenses to do all kinds of things, from driving a car to opening a bank account," Postel said. "This law will further marginalize a group that is already on edge."

Well, duh, you busy ditch!  You sorta, kinda, do indeed need a license to drive a car in Wisconsin.  You sorta, kinda need to have a driver's license to drive a car in other states, last I heard.

Unless you're telling us that you're driving around sans license and insurance, forcing me to pay more in uninsured motorist premiums. 

Jeebus.  They want everything BUT citizenship via proper means. 
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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Jamisjockey

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2007, 02:31:30 AM »
Real ID:
Papers, please....

Just like any other half-brained idea our gubmnt has....this will come out of our pockets too.
JD

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Art Eatman

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2007, 03:45:13 AM »
Can't have it both ways:  Either a quality-made national ID, or continued absence of proof of illegal entry into the country.  What I like or dislike has zilch to do with anything.

I know of no other real-world way to determine citizenship other than "Papers, please."  What I like or dislike has zilch to do with anything.

Anybody who doesn't think illegal immigrants are a problem, or who is unconcerned about what it's costing our society as to tax dollars, okay, fine, fight it.  But while you're at it, provide options that would alleviate the problems.

Y'know, after this recent rally in LA, with the mayor supporting those who--among other things--espouse the cause of Aztlan, I think we've got more problems than folks are willing to admit.  And when cops wind up being prosecuted by the feds for self-defense shootings ("civil rights" charges), I'm amazed we don't have wholesale job-changing.  And the LA-area cops are already giving up on policing some gang areas...

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Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

Manedwolf

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2007, 04:03:28 AM »
The fed WILL want to tie this in with everything from CCW to political party membership...and consumer profiles.

No. Absolutely not. NH is likely going to be the next to declare noncompliance with RealID, being the "live free or die" state.

Any correspondence the government sends me on the matter will be returned with a copy of the bill of rights.

And to anyone who says "it's the only way", I guess they've entirely forgotten what Ben Franklin said about giving up essential liberties for security. Or in this case, pretend security, thumbsucking government-will-protect-your-data security.

They deserve neither security, nor liberty, if that's how they feel.

Bit by bit, nibble by nibble. This is okay, that's okay, it's for the security, it's FOR THE CHILDREN...

This time, it's punish the citizens with RealID instead of getting rid of the illegals. Next up, more punishing of law-abiding gun owners instead of getting rid of the criminals.

Makes me ill.

(BTW, for anyone who thinks RealID has ANYTHING to do with illegals, please look at how many states do 'catch and release', MA being one of them. The police are forbidden to hold someone just for being an illegal, even if it's obvious they are. So RealID would do...what?)

The Rabbi

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2007, 04:09:37 AM »
I think I posted repeatedly on immigration topics that any measures that would be effective in stopping illegal immigration via increased enforcement also posed a threat to civil liberties to the rest of us.
I havent looked into the RealID thing to see what it exactly entails.  But if this isn't it, it wont be effective. And if it isnt effective, it will be replaced by something that is.
Streamline, document, legalize.  Only way.
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Art Eatman

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2007, 06:28:26 AM »
Manedwolf, my attitude is just like that expressed by Edward Abbey in "The Brave Cowboy":  "ID card?  I don't need an ID card; I know who I am."

But:  Until somebody designs a program and implements it on a nationwide scale, the whole illegal-immigrant package of problems is going to worsen.  I'm not gonna waste my time enumerating the whole laundry list.  Suffice that unless "The Authorities" can readily differentiate between citizen and non-citizen, nothing's gonna do any good.  Peein' in the whiskey.  Ruins the taste.

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

MechAg94

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2007, 07:08:47 AM »
You don't need a federal ID to track immigration status.  There are existing ways to do it.  We catch them all the time.  The feds know where they can find illegal immigrants.  They know where they are coming into the country.  The problem is not ID's.  It is simply the will to do something about it and change the rules, politics, and bureaucracy to do it.  Streamlining legal immigration is another great way to help. 

Now if they want to do a Real Immigrant ID card, that might be something that would help. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Gewehr98

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2007, 07:16:28 AM »
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Now if they want to do a Real Immigrant ID card, that might be something that would help. 

Oh,yeah. Like the beaners wouldn't scream foul about the intrusion into their civil liberties if that option became a reality.   rolleyes
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The Rabbi

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2007, 07:17:45 AM »
Quote
Now if they want to do a Real Immigrant ID card, that might be something that would help. 

Oh,yeah. Like the beaners wouldn't scream foul about the intrusion into their civil liberties if that option became a reality.   rolleyes

Who are "the beaners"??
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Art Eatman

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2007, 07:23:11 AM »
"Beaners"?  I first heard the term in the mid-80s, applied to Mexicans, at Phoenix, AZ.  It apparently was commonplace among the USAF folks at Luke AFB.  (My son was stationed there.)

Art
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Manedwolf

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2007, 07:23:29 AM »
Quote
Now if they want to do a Real Immigrant ID card, that might be something that would help. 

Oh,yeah. Like the beaners wouldn't scream foul about the intrusion into their civil liberties if that option became a reality.   rolleyes

Who are "the beaners"??

AFAIK, it's SoCal derogatory slang for Mexicans.

My solution to the whole immigration thing is simple, but wouldn't fly. Legal immigrant? Welcome to America, glad to have you! Buy'em a beer, they legally entered the best nation in the world and want to be an American. Illegal? Round up, deport. No exceptions. They broke the law.

Someone said we can't "just deport 12 million illegals".

Sure we can.

wmenorr67

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2007, 07:38:29 AM »
But you want to know what really sickens me is that a Military ID is not considered by a lot of places as a valid picture ID.  They usually want to see another form.  At that time if it is a business I take my business some place else.
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Sindawe

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2007, 07:44:13 AM »
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Oh,yeah. Like the illegal aliens and their supporters wouldn't scream foul about the intrusion into their civil liberties if that option became a reality.

Of course they will.  There seems to be no end to their capacity for self-delusion and ignorance of history.  Look at how they've taken up César Chávez as an icon for "immigrant rights", when in reality he was opposed to illegal immigration and the use of illegals to undercut the wages of citizen and legal immigrant farm workers.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_5514741

Even IF Real ID is implemented and forced apon the citizens of this nation, I have doubts that it will be used by the feds to address the invasion of illegals into the nation.

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2007, 07:47:41 AM »
Quote
Now if they want to do a Real Immigrant ID card, that might be something that would help. 

Oh,yeah. Like the beaners wouldn't scream foul about the intrusion into their civil liberties if that option became a reality.   rolleyes

Who are "the beaners"??

AFAIK, it's SoCal derogatory slang for Mexicans.

My solution to the whole immigration thing is simple, but wouldn't fly. Legal immigrant? Welcome to America, glad to have you! Buy'em a beer, they legally entered the best nation in the world and want to be an American. Illegal? Round up, deport. No exceptions. They broke the law.

Someone said we can't "just deport 12 million illegals".

Sure we can.

So I guess "beaners" is more socially acceptable than "spics."  But either one doesn't say much for the people who use such words to characterize whole groups.

We can deport 12 million illegals.  That's 12 million this year, 12 million next year, ad nauseam.  I saw a report about Nigerians deported 3 times from this country.
I fail to see the benefit of deportation, especially since it won't solve whatever problem it's supposed to solve.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2007, 07:49:18 AM »
Re: "Beaners" - watch The Mind of Mencia, Carlos Mencia was responsible for injecting the term into everyday use.   He's not terribly forgiving of Los Illegals, either.   

My SoCal family uses the term in their everyday vernacular, but will not use the term "wetback".  "Beaner" is no more a vulgarity in their regional lingo than "Cheddarhead" is to mine here.  But of course, somebody somewhere will be offended by damned near anything found in the written or spoken word.

The military ID is not considered a valid citizenship ID because the DoD allows non-resident enlistees, for up to 4-6 years.  To re-enlist, they must become citizens, otherwise their military careers are over at the end of their first term. 

We deport because we can't keep them out with our porous borders. If we tighten up those leaks, then we're trampling on their civil rights, and a major source of dollars flowing back into Mexico ceases.  If you think there's a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth now, wait'll Mexico loses the cash influx sent back home by Los Illegals working here in the States.   shocked
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wmenorr67

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2007, 08:03:30 AM »
I understand the issue of the military ID not being a valid citizenship ID but when I use it for a picture ID at a store and they turn it down that pisses me off.
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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2007, 08:12:10 AM »
The term "beaners" was in common usage in the 1970s and 80s when I was growing up, usually applied to Americans of Hispanic origin that either lived the Chicano lifestyle or were posers thereof.  Mencia did not inject it into anything.

Quote
If you think there's a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth now, wait'll Mexico loses the cash influx sent back home by Los Illegals working here in the States.
Or the oil in their fields runs out, which is in about nine years per the President of Mexico

Which could be moot if the current interpretations of Mesoamerican Long Count calendar turn out to be valid.  Thats in about five years.

Interesting times ahead.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Real ID... The complaints are hilarious!
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2007, 09:00:33 AM »
There are only two ways to stop the immigration problem:
A) Punish the crap out of employers that knowingly hire illegals.  Make an example of a few large corporations and the rest will clean up thier act.
B) Invade and annex Mexico.  The further south you go, the smaller that border fence would need to be....
JD

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