NY thumbing it's nose at the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act

[WLJ]

Quite a bit of damage can be done before this can be slapped down in court.
Not sure if this only effect NY based manufactures or they'll use to this to try to go after out of state ones as well.

Under this new legislation, gun manufacturers cannot endanger the safety and health of the public through the sale, manufacturing, importing or marketing of the products they sell. The products can be considered a public nuisance even if the gun manufacturer did not purposely cause harm to the public. The Attorney General and any city corporation counsel can take action on behalf of any locality, as can members of the public, corporations and associations.

BREAKING: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Bill Allowing Nuisance Lawsuits Against Gun Makers
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-ny-gov-andrew-cuomo-signs-bill-allowing-nuisance-lawsuits-against-gun-makers/

[griz]

Too bad there aren't any car manufacturers in NY.  It would make a better test case since very few people intend to cause a car wreck while 99% of shooters pull the trigger on purpose.

[Boomhauer]

Quite a bit of damage can be done before this can be slapped down in court.
Not sure if this only effect NY based manufactures or they'll use to this to try to go after out of state ones as well.

BREAKING: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Bill Allowing Nuisance Lawsuits Against Gun Makers
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-ny-gov-andrew-cuomo-signs-bill-allowing-nuisance-lawsuits-against-gun-makers/

Considering NY has been sending state LE to other states for years  to “investigate” firearms stuff…yes.

[Pb]

If thiis effects of out of state gunmakers, it is going to be a horrific nightmare.... one I don't expect the courts to help with.

[Cliffh]

One question (of many) is how can this be stopped?

Anybody can file suit, many courts aren't likely to do anything.

WTF.

[Hawkmoon]

Gun makers should do a Barrett and stop selling firearms in and to New York -- including to NY police departments.

[Ben]

Gun makers should do a Barrett and stop selling firearms in and to New York -- including to NY police departments.

Yup. Because they are going to get no help from federal law. This is like ambulance chasing - trying to simply sue gun makers out of business not because they are guilty of anything, but because they will go broke via legal fees.

The only hope I see in ending something like this is if someone legally smart can find a way to expand it. If a legal argument can be made to include the makers of pretty much anything in this, then I think we would see it reversed.

As for not selling guns to NY, including the cops - I have always liked that idea as a response. Sadly though, there are very few Barretts out there. For example, if S&W would refuse to sell to NY LE, Glock would just step in. It would take all the big gunmakers sticking together to the point that NYPD couldn't buy anything but a Hi Point.

[dogmush]

It'd be more effective if we could get the ammo makers to cut NY.gov off.  Glocks are pretty durable, but they need a whole magazine per target.

[WLJ]

It'd be more effective if we could get the ammo makers to cut NY.gov off.  Glocks are pretty durable, but they need a whole magazine per target.

If you've ever fired a Glock with a NY trigger and then combine that with very little actual firearms training on their part you would understand why.
http://quadcitiesdaily.com/?p=355665

[dogmush]

slight drift:

I know why they can't shoot (although an NY1 trigger isn't THAT bad, I've shot them).  It is one of my pet peeves, and one of the main reasons my personal lack of support to US Law Enforcement, that we allow barely competent (or incompetent) shooters to carry firearms and use force against us, and just pretend that it's OK, because training is hard and expensive.  Even worse, the cop bootlickers and (when it suits them) the media hold these novice shooters up as experts and force their advice on the rest of us.  As if strapping a Glock to your side and sitting in a car will transfer firearms skills by osmosis.

Since it's a bugaboo of mine, I like to point it out whenever practicable.  hence my comments on NYPD's lack of marksmanship.  We'll talk about PID another day.

\slight drift.

[WLJ]

slight drift:

I know why they can't shoot (although an NY1 trigger isn't THAT bad, I've shot them).  It is one of my pet peeves, and one of the main reasons my personal lack of support to US Law Enforcement, that we allow barely competent (or incompetent) shooters to carry firearms and use force against us, and just pretend that it's OK, because training is hard and expensive.  Even worse, the cop bootlickers and (when it suits them) the media hold these novice shooters up as experts and force their advice on the rest of us.  As if strapping a Glock to your side and sitting in a car will transfer firearms skills by osmosis.

Since it's a bugaboo of mine, I like to point it out whenever practicable.  hence my comments on NYPD's lack of marksmanship.  We'll talk about PID another day.

\slight drift.

Why I also said  "and then combine that with very little actual firearms training on their part "
I've shot guns with a NY trigger and you are correct, it isn't that bad by itself, it's the combination of a bad trigger and very little firearms training that's bad. I would be willing to bet I have had far more trigger time than most NYC cops

[Ben]

slight drift:

I know why they can't shoot (although an NY1 trigger isn't THAT bad, I've shot them).  It is one of my pet peeves, and one of the main reasons my personal lack of support to US Law Enforcement, that we allow barely competent (or incompetent) shooters to carry firearms and use force against us, and just pretend that it's OK, because training is hard and expensive.  Even worse, the cop bootlickers and (when it suits them) the media hold these novice shooters up as experts and force their advice on the rest of us.  As if strapping a Glock to your side and sitting in a car will transfer firearms skills by osmosis.

Since it's a bugaboo of mine, I like to point it out whenever practicable.  hence my comments on NYPD's lack of marksmanship.  We'll talk about PID another day.

\slight drift.

There was a time that I thought the instructors in tactical pistol classes I have taken were just blowing smoke up my ass when telling me that I was now better trained and more competent than 80% of cops, but I don't think that anymore. FWIW, a couple of the assistant instructors were cops.

[French G.]

The cops that can shoot show up regularly to classes and competitions. A very small subset of cops. NY1 trigger has nothing on the alphabet boi who came to a match with a short barrel shotgun and a DAO HK. I assume he eventually hit something, I was too busy re-setting the sundial we timed him with to watch.

[cordex]

The cops that can shoot show up regularly to classes and competitions. A very small subset of cops. NY1 trigger has nothing on the alphabet boi who came to a match with a short barrel shotgun and a DAO HK. I assume he eventually hit something, I was too busy re-setting the sundial we timed him with to watch.

I took my first pistol and carbine class when I was 16 with a crappy self-built AR (Olympic Arms lower, a 16" bull barrel Model 1 upper) and a borrowed Commander length 1911.  There was a single small town cop in the class who had been sent because he couldn't manage to qualify.  Despite my lack of experience I was shooting better than him on the first day and I improved from there.
 The cop did not.  The chief came to observe and was invited to shoot.  I don't think he did any better than his officer.

On the other hand, I know an awful lot of cops who are very skilled with firearms.  To be fair, I work with a SWAT team and those guys are going to be better than the average.  Their LT makes them qualify with a much more difficult course of fire than the regular officers, and they get quite a bit of practice.  However, most of the regular officers I personally associate with tend to be shooters too, so they may not be a representative sample.

All that said, I think as shooters we tend to selectively put our best against their worst in our minds.  At the very least cops have to qualify a couple times a year, which is more practice than a lot of gun owners get, and often get more opportunities to do things like force-on-force, shooting on the move, and so forth.  Cops carry a gun at minimum when they are on duty (when they don't forget it in the bathroom), which again is more often than can be said of most gun owners.  The departments I am personally associated with have pretty robust training.  Which is not to say that there aren't poor shooters among them, just that it isn't tolerated in the same way it might be among other departments.

If I were to guess, I'd say that the guys who train and carry regularly are probably significantly better than the average cop, but the average cop is probably significantly better than the average gun owner.  And a lot of average gun owners don't have an understanding of the limits of their own abilities, especially because they are so rarely put to any real test.

[dogmush]

No real argument with what cordex said, I'd just add that the average gun owner isn't empowered by the state to use their gun to shoot criminals in public.  Since LEO's are, and are sent into situations where firearm use is much more likely than for an "average gun owner", I think we should require better of them, and we demonstrably don't.

For perspective, I shoot quite a bit and practice running, shooting, drawing and reloading handguns on the range more than the vast majority of "average gun owners", but I'm not particularly great with a pistol.  I recently took an intermediate pistol course and just barely passed the standards at the end.  I have work to do before going to the next level.

Standards:  1 "Bill Drill": draw from holster, 6 rounds on target, A-zone only, 7 yards, less than 4 sec.
                  1 "3+3":  Draw from holster, shoot 3 rounds to slide lock, reload, shoot three more rounds, A-zone only, 7 yards, less than 6 sec.
                  1 "Medium range" Draw and fire 3 rounds, A-zone only, 10 yards, 3.5 sec
                  1 "Long range"  Draw and fire 3 rounds, A-zone only, 26 yards, 5 sec
                  1 "El Presidente" variant" 7 yards, 2 rounds per target, A-zone only, 6 sec.

Any misses fail the whole thing.  You get one try at each drill.

I couldn't do that cold, but after a day of training to warm up I got them all.  It's not unreasonable in my mind that someone carrying a pistol in public, with the authority of the government, be at least that good.  Intermediate pistol level.  And I don't think your average cop is anywhere near that good based on my shooting with them at their ranges.  I suspect the SWAT guys cordex shoots with could knock it out with no real difficulty.

For that matter your average cop that I shoot with (SWAT excluded) would have a hard time passing the Army's expert pistol qual, which is laughably easy but requires moving and reloading.

[Ben]

I couldn't do that cold, but after a day of training to warm up I got them all.  It's not unreasonable in my mind that someone carrying a pistol in public, with the authority of the government, be at least that good.  Intermediate pistol level.  And I don't think your average cop is anywhere near that good based on my shooting with them at their ranges.  I suspect the SWAT guys cordex shoots with could knock it out with no real difficulty.

For that matter your average cop that I shoot with (SWAT excluded) would have a hard time passing the Army's expert pistol qual, which is laughably easy but requires moving and reloading.

I'm no snake eating trigger puller either. Classes I took had similar drills to yours, and I agree, they are intermediate. Maybe advanced for me, but intermediate for people whose job involves a gun. 

The cop instructors in my classes put it to us this way: Cops are like non-cops. Some could care less about guns and just want to do no more than their minimum training quals, just like some people buy a gun and a box of ammo and stick it in the nightstand, or else go to the range and stand in one place and slow fire at a stationary target.

Other gun owners (of defensive guns anyway), get more involved, like to shoot, and like to train. Just like some cops will train more, or go for SWAT or SRT or whatever and constantly work to be better. Those instructors that I had indicated that the percentage of cops that want to train more is not all that much greater than in the general shooting population. Cop is a job to them and the gun is just one more thing they have to deal with in their job.

I agree with you that people with power and a badge should have a much higher percentage of their population wanting to be good with a gun than in the general population.

[dogmush]

Or the flip side:

If you can't at least get to intermediate level, then you don't get to have a job that involves carrying a pistol in public.   Maybe those cops can be the unarmed community service officers all the D cities are clamoring for.

It's our fault really, as a public, for allowing them to wander around dangers to themselves and us.

As I said before in another thread, we need to stop expecting cops to be Jack's of all Tades, and demanding proficiency at fewer, key tasks.

[Ben]

Or the flip side:

If you can't at least get to intermediate level, then you don't get to have a job that involves carrying a pistol in public.   Maybe those cops can be the unarmed community service officers all the D cities are clamoring for.

That works too.

[Devonai]

When I was going through my Glock phase (1999-2012), I had a NY1 spring in all of my Glocks.  I had no problem with the weight, it eliminated the "sproingy" feel of the factory spring, and I thought it improved the reset as well.

I actually still have my first one, a Gen-2 Glock 22, by proxy.  I sold it to my buddy years ago and it made its way back into my safe after he moved indefinitely to the Czech Republic.  He kept the NY1 spring for the same reasons.

As to the original post, if I have insomnia I like to fantasize about manufacturers cutting off NY law enforcement.  It gives me warm fuzzies and puts me right to sleep, like many fabulous scenarios that I know will never happen.

[Cliffh]

When I was going through my Glock phase (1999-2012), I had a NY1 spring in all of my Glocks.  I had no problem with the weight, it eliminated the "sproingy" feel of the factory spring, and I thought it improved the reset as well.

I actually still have my first one, a Gen-2 Glock 22, by proxy.  I sold it to my buddy years ago and it made its way back into my safe after he moved indefinitely to the Czech Republic.  He kept the NY1 spring for the same reasons.

As to the original post, if I have insomnia I like to fantasize about manufacturers cutting off NY law enforcement.  It gives me warm fuzzies and puts me right to sleep, like many fabulous scenarios that I know will never happen.

Who knows, maybe with this latest bit of crazy from NY, your dream might come true.