Author Topic: Ooh, they are freezing relations  (Read 15110 times)

Bigjake

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2007, 09:35:31 AM »
Quote

I am truly at wits end to explain to shootinstudent why his POV is absolutely craven and an invitation to be slowly and thoroughly extorted by terrorists.


Duh.  Like I said in threads previous,  Trying to teach a pig to sing. 

Hell, extortion is the least of my worries.  Enjoy the inevitable Caliphate comming your way, shootinstudent.  Liberty or death for me.

least some of you guys, Fistful and Cannoneer, have the stones to call a spade a spade.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2007, 09:38:26 AM »
MILITARY PERSONNEL ARE EXPENDABLE. 

MILITARY PERSONNEL ARE EXPENDABLE. 

MILITARY PERSONNEL ARE EXPENDABLE. 

THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE FOR.

Repetition doesn't make it true, but maybe it will help you to understand that MILITARY PERSONNEL ARE EXPENDABLE is basic to my position (or any reasonable position) on this issue.  So all the moral outrage ("He acts like they're expendable.") is just uselessly stating the obvious. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2007, 09:41:43 AM »
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It's funny that you don't consider flat-out calling someone a coward to be an attack,


Oh, I guess it would be correct to call it an attack, just not of the ad hominem variety.  When someone's argument is wrong, you say, "You're wrong."  When someone argues from a position of cowardice, you are not out-of-bounds nor illogical to say, "You're a coward."  It's not ad hominem; it's dealing with the issue at hand. 
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De Selby

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2007, 09:51:37 AM »
fistful,

Okay, that's great.  So you think Britain should not be committed to bringing its servicepeople home wherever possible.

I disagree in this case particularly because a war with Iran doesn't do anything to help Britain.  They shouldn't be called to sacrifice their lives for some other nation's battle, and the UK authorities are right to treat the issue like it isn't their battle.

How does saying that Britain should show that bringing servicemen home is a priorty constitute "cowardice"?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2007, 10:05:49 AM »
So, if Iran learns that it can get things from the UK and other nations by snatching their service people; and if other nations learn from that example, then standing up to Iranian thuggery is not in the interest of the UK? 

Very cute how you consistently maintain, as if an obvious fact, that the US is the only nation that has anything to fear from Iran.  That's bogus and you know it. 

You also know that you've twisted my words here:
Quote
So you think Britain should not be committed to bringing its servicepeople home wherever possible.  How does saying that Britain should show that bringing servicemen home is a priorty constitute "cowardice"?

Bringing the sailors home should be a very high priority.  Keeping Iran from using kidnapping as a political tool should be higher yet.  You know that's what I meant, but you twist my words dishonestly.  I don't pity your dishonesty. 

RE: Reagan -
I can't offer an opinion there, as I'm not familiar with the situation.  I'm thirty years old, and haven't yet gotten to that part of the historical backlog.  And, no, I'm not interested in having you "educate me" on the matter.  I can look it up myself someday, thanks. 
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De Selby

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2007, 10:08:53 AM »
fistful,

Uh, what is the Iranian threat to Britain? 

You're accusing me of twisting your words, but you stated three times repeatedly "Expendable" in all caps. That's pretty hard to twist.  I think I'm being fair in accusing you of saying that the British troops are expendable, and should be expended so that Iran can be bombed.

The UK has zero to gain from war with Iran (higher oil prices aren't a gain at this point).  So yes, I think it's fair to say that Britain should move with diplomacy first to try and get its 15 sailors back if its priority is getting the troops home.

Quote
I can't offer an opinion there, as I'm not familiar with the situation.  I'm thirty years old, and haven't yet gotten to that part of the historical backlog.  And, no, I'm not interested in having you "educate me" on the matter.  I can look it up myself someday, thanks.

It's an easy one: Iran-Contra affair.  Very well known.  No need for education.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2007, 10:11:41 AM »
Well, yeah, I've heard of Iran-Contra.  I'm just not going to blindly accept your interpretation of it.


Let's quit going in circles here.  Tell me where I said that Britain should abandon diplomacy and go straigt into military action.  Saying that troops are expendable doesn't get you there, it's just a basic fact of life. 
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De Selby

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2007, 10:12:19 AM »
fistful,

If you're not disagreeing with my position, then why did you call me a coward? 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2007, 10:23:22 AM »
SS,

Maybe we got our signals crossed here.  I'm not opposed to diplomacy and I'm not spoiling for war.  I'm simply saying that the lives of fifteen kidnapped sailors CANNOT take the highest priority.  Militaries, by nature, do a dangerous, life-threatening job.  If a nation will not risk the lives of its military, then it has no use for military organizations at all.  If the lives of linemen were our highest priority, none of us would have electrical power.  If the lives of service-members were the highest priority, we would make sure they are safely in the barracks on dry land, at all times, being fed and watered. 

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2007, 10:28:09 AM »
fistful,

If you're not disagreeing with my position, then why did you call me a coward? 

Because you seem to think that Britain should do whatever Iran wants in order to avoid immediate bloodshed.  After all, you said that the lives of the sailors should be the highest priority.  If I interpret you correctly (have I?) you advocate a position that would lead to further British cowering and Iranian bullying.  That is cowardly.  Did I read you wrong? 
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The Rabbi

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2007, 10:35:03 AM »
"War is the failure of diplomacy."

Some people here seem bent on sending Britain into war, a war they are ill prepared for, unable to prosecute effectively, and have no support for at home.  War would probably be the worst outcome.
There are plenty of measures that are being tried probably as we speak.  International condemnation is one.  Economic pressure is another.  Anyone see this morning's WSJ and their editorial on Total, the French oil company, and their dealings with Iran?  Yeah, get the Euros to shut down business with Iran and I think we could get the hostages back without a shot being fired.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2007, 10:38:03 AM »
How is calling somebody a coward not an ad-hominem attack?   sad
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The Rabbi

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2007, 11:07:56 AM »
How is calling somebody a coward not an ad-hominem attack?   sad

It wasn't ad hominem.  It was "dealing with the issue at hand."  Make sense?  No, not to me either.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2007, 11:08:41 AM »
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Some people here seem bent on sending Britain into war,

Who? 


Gewehr, the phrase ad hominem refers to a logical error.  I.e., "You are wrong because you are a coward."  The ad hominem attack is a distraction from the real issue. 

In my case, I was dealing with the issue at hand (giving in to Iranian demands to save the lives of fifteen soldiers), describing the suggestion and the speaker as cowardly.  There was no distraction and no logical error. 
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The Rabbi

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2007, 11:21:00 AM »
You and CAnoneer.

Ad hominem simply means against the person.  Calling someone cowardly is ad hominem, no matter what the context.  An ad hominem argument is logically flawed but it doesnt mean that ad hominem is restricted to arguments.
If you had called SS's argument a cowardly argument, I dont think I'd have much problem.  But since you called him cowardly (and how you could know such a thing about him, never having met the man I really dont know), that was ad hominem.  And disgraceful.
More disgraceful is trying Clinton-like to excuse yourself from the responsibility of admitting mistake and apologizing.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2007, 11:30:10 AM »
I don't think Fistful understands that, Rabbi.

For the same reason that he doesn't understand why Barbara left APS.

And yes, Fistful, you attacked the person, not the argument, using the derogatory term "coward", which last I heard, was non-complementary in form.

Now hurry up and edit your posting so that it says "cowardly argument", so you can come back here and state, "What? What did I do? I didn't do anything wrong!"  undecided

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MechAg94

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2007, 12:25:52 PM »
I wouldn't recommend Britain go to war right now simply because that can't unless they get our help.  However, we might have a vested interest in making sure countries can't kidnap other nations people in order to get diplomatic concessions.  Further diplomacy is appropriate right now, but may escalation may be necessary.  What if Iran starts kidnapping civilians?  More concessions?  War may not be the answer at this point, but action should not be ruled out.


Quote
"War is the failure of diplomacy."
So said the stupid diplomat.  War is not something to be avoided "at all costs" as some say.  There are some things worse than war.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2007, 12:40:14 PM »
Tehran invaded a neighboring county without cause, kidnapped peaceable British servicemen, and apparently tortured at least one of them into making false confessions. 

Someone please explain to me how this isn't an act of war.  Someone please explain how the world is a better place after having taught Ahmadinijad that he can invade foreign territories and kidnap foreign servicemen without repercussions.  Someone explain to me how negotiating with this man is anything other than appeasing a terrorist.

Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller...?

Britain may not have the world's most fearsome invasion and occupation force at the ready, but they do have plenty of cruise missiles and other precision bombing capabilities.  Tehran's nearest naval base or one of their prized nuclear facilities should be a smoldering pile of rubble right now. 

Negotiation is all well and good, but in this case it's a bit like expecting a rape victim to politely ask her attacker "Pretty please, don't hurt me anymore, please return my dignity."  You don't politely request that a madman stop attacking you, you make him stop.  Then you make sure that he suffers enough that he'll think twice before trying anything like that again.

Manedwolf

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2007, 12:57:15 PM »
Britain may not have the world's most fearsome invasion and occupation force at the ready, but they do have plenty of cruise missiles and other precision bombing capabilities.  Tehran's nearest naval base or one of their prized nuclear facilities should be a smoldering pile of rubble right now. 

And then Iran launches a rain of Exocets into the Straits, turning supertankers into blazing hazards to navigation, making the world oil market have a complete breakdown in panic, shutting DOWN the straits, making US gas prices spike past $5/gallon, economy goes "boom" in an all-out recession, world markets pull a 1929, US drawn into War with Iran, US hits Iran, Iran takes out one of our ships with Sunburns, etc, etc, etc...

Right now, Iran is like a pile of snakes with people standing in it. Much as everyone would like to take a good whack...someone's going to get bit if you do.

Look at how jittery investors got even with a quickly quashed rumor that Iran had fired on us.



Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2007, 01:07:57 PM »
I don't think Iran wants full scale war anymore than Britain does.  But unlike Britain, Iran is perfectly willing to push things right up to the edge.  Somehow, sometime, someone has got to make Tehran understand that these stunts will not be tolerated.  If not, then Tehran will continue to escalate.  Eventually the antagonism will grow until it can no longer be ignored and full scale war is the only option left.  Just like with Saddam...

When confronting a bully the worst thing you can do is back down.  Britain hasn't quite backed down, but she definitely blinked.  And now, surprise surprise, Tehran reneged on her promise to release the woman early and instead is threatening to place all of the captured sailors on trial for their lives.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2007, 01:20:54 PM »
Ad hominem simply means against the person.  Calling someone cowardly is ad hominem, no matter what the context.  An ad hominem argument is logically flawed but it doesnt mean that ad hominem is restricted to arguments.

Ad hominem means "to the man."  At least, my logic professor told me so.  You're the one that's studied Latin.

I said "shootinstudent, your perspective is sad.  I pity your cowardice.   sad    You're willing to bargain with terrorists.  They would bleed you dry."

If you use the term ad hominem in its plainest literal sense, yes, as it addresses shootinstudent directly.  I only denied that it was "ad hominem" in the sense of a logical fallacy.  There is no place for logic in a simple description of a person.


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If you had called SS's argument a cowardly argument, I dont think I'd have much problem.  But since you called him cowardly (and how you could know such a thing about him, never having met the man I really dont know), that was ad hominem.  And disgraceful.
More disgraceful is trying Clinton-like to excuse yourself from the responsibility of admitting mistake and apologizing.

This sounds like a joke coming from you.  You use personal insults as a matter of course.  shootinstudent's statements in this thread reek of cowardice.  And as I said, I pity him for it.  I will apologize when you and every other member of this forum apologizes for saying that other members are stupid, bigoted, ignorant, sexist, biased, homophobic, unpatriotic, jingoistic, knee-jerk chickenhawks, or a number of other insults.    This happens all the time, and I won't be singled out for it.  When all of you go back through every post and apologize, I'll do the same. 
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2007, 01:27:51 PM »
What a pleasant way to spend the end of the day. Sad

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2007, 01:29:51 PM »
I don't think Fistful understands that, Rabbi.

For the same reason that he doesn't understand why Barbara left APS.

And yes, Fistful, you attacked the person, not the argument, using the derogatory term "coward", which last I heard, was non-complementary in form.

Now hurry up and edit your posting so that it says "cowardly argument", so you can come back here and state, "What? What did I do? I didn't do anything wrong!"  undecided

As you can see above, I used the term "cowardice," not "coward."  No real difference.  I could call you a bad quoter, but that would be wrong, I guess.  And if you read the post, it attacks the argument and the arguer at the same time.  The rule against ad hominem arguments is not there to keep feelings from being hurt; it is there to detect poor arguments.  Instead of paying any attention to the horrible prospect shootinstudent suggests, of letting ourselves be bullied by Iran, you would rather be distracted by the fact that I used a harsh word on someone that deserved it. 

The post has never been edited.  Let me know if it ever is.  And also explain why Barbara left, if you can.  I guess it's because she tangled with me as you are doing, and couldn't tolerate some plain speaking in return.  I'm sure you have more fortitude. 
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The Rabbi

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2007, 01:51:12 PM »
What a pleasant way to spend the end of the day. Sad

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De Selby

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2007, 01:52:23 PM »
First weakest defense:

"I didn't know what I was supposed to be doing, so I did the wrong thing"


Second weakest defense:

"Everyone else was doing it"

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."