Author Topic: Universal Basic Income  (Read 945 times)

Ben

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Universal Basic Income
« on: August 03, 2024, 01:18:53 PM »
Hey, here's a shocker: If you pay people UBI, it turns out they end up saying "meh" to getting a job. I never saw that coming.

https://twitchy.com/amy-curtis/2024/08/03/universal-basic-income-study-released-and-its-as-bad-as-youd-expect-n2399173
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K Frame

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2024, 02:48:04 PM »
"Universal basic income (UBI) is just another way to say socialism. And -- as predicted -- a long term study into the impacts of giving free money to lower income families shows it ends up being a disaster."

So... just like welfare, which was originally intended to be a temporary leg up for people in time of need.

But which the Democrats worked hard to change into something that created what is essentially a new plantation mentality.

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zahc

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2024, 08:54:59 PM »
UBI is not socialism. Words have meaning, let's try to use them.

The real reason modern UBI schemes won't work is first and less important that they are proposed to be funded by taxes on productive enterprise, therefore cause a net harm to the economy.

Second and more importantly, they cannot actually help the poor without corresponding policies to extract rent, because rents will simply rise to consume the excess per Ricardo's law of rent, so even if your overall economy could take the tax hit, the UBI passes straight through the poor and becomes a handout to rentiers. Just like student loan guarantees are handouts to banks not students. This is what they actually want, and why you are hearing so much about UBI schemes.

UBI is not a preposterous idea outright but the roots of UBI were always coupled with taxing rents (Adam Smith proposed capping rents) to pay for it, which actually does work, uncontroversially, because it's well known that taxing rents does not harm the economy and in practice actually improves it. This was very close to happening in the US but died when the first wave of the progressive era died around WWI (some have proposed WWI was actually started to protect old world politics from this idea). Now it's been long enough nobody remembers the tax politics of Henry George, Winston Churchill, or their contemporary thinkers, and more modern economists like Joseph Stiglitz and Milton Friedman dead or marginal, so the rentiers have come up with the preposterous and predictable idea of not only NOT taxing rents, but implementing "UBI" which allows the rentiers to basically appropriate even more wealth from middle class productive enterprise and capital than they already do.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2024, 09:11:05 PM by zahc »
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MechAg94

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2024, 12:38:11 AM »
Permanently taxing productive people to give that money to unproductive people is preposterous. 
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Bogie

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2024, 07:12:09 AM »
...But it is one helluva way to buy the votes of the people who want a utopia of free stuffs...
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K Frame

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2024, 07:33:47 AM »
UBI is one hell of a lot closer to socialism than it is to capitalism.

In socialism the means of production is owned and largely controlled by the state to ensure a "fairer" distribution of all resources, including income.

In post WW II Britain the Atlee government began a program of nationalization. The Bank of England, internal transportation (primarily railroads but to a lesser degree airlines) mining, public utilities, telecommunications (oddly enough, apparently not the BBC), and heavy industry. Were all subject to nationalization.

The plan of some in the Labor party was to nationalize virtually every business in Britain, even down to small shops because, as everyone knows, centralized government can do it SO much better, with the ultimate goal of providing a cradle to grave social state which would include universal basic income.

That just led to a series of unmitigated disasters starting with the winter of 1947-48 (Hey, we nationalized the coal mines! All is peachy! What do you mean we're not producing nearly enough coal to heat and light Britain?)

Anywho... yeah, UBI may not be "socialism," per se, but it's a *expletive deleted*ing wet dream of the socialists.
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K Frame

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2024, 07:51:21 AM »
...But it is one helluva way to buy the votes of the people who want a utopia of free stuffs...


And there you have it. Basic vote buying.

Remember the Greek debt crisis about a decade ago?

That was built primarily on successive Greek governments, both left and right, essentially creating very expensive programs of give aways, not as a means of creating a better Greece, but as a means of cementing their power bases.

Yeah, that worked out great for everyone when the government froze bank accounts and then scalped, IIRC, 10 to 20% of every individual's account holdings as a means of propping up the government.

Hey, you had 10,000 drachmas in your bank account? Congratulations on being a successful saver! You now have 8,000 drachmas!

Anywho, of course there are a lot of websites out there -- VOX, Giving Daily, etc... -- that say that UBI is HUGELY successful! It creates entrepenurship! (sp?) It creates satisfaction! It INCREASES the desire to work! (sure it does, just like welfare increases the desire to get off welfare)

And then there was Andrew Yang, who tried UBI as a means of generating... er... BUYING support for his presidential campaign.

Of course, no one is actually sitting down and saying "this is how we'll pay UBI for everyone!"

Well, the Bernie Sanders brigade probably said "we can tax 1 billionaire and pay for this in perpetuity! Along with everything else we're going to give away for free!"

It's probably a good thing that so many politicians are stupid. If they were actually smart they might be one hell of a lot more dangerous than they already are. 
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dogmush

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2024, 08:10:36 AM »
I'm confused about what you mean by "taxing rent".

My rental income is most definitely taxed.  Are you talking about adding more taxes to that income?

Ben

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2024, 08:58:08 AM »
I'm confused about what you mean by "taxing rent".

My rental income is most definitely taxed.  Are you talking about adding more taxes to that income?

He explained it a while back in another thread, but I still didn't understand it, or what he meant by "rent", which is apparently not only the common definition. Otherwise, if it's taxing rental income (more), I can only see the negative effects that include the attrition of small fry landlords like you are and I was (and got out of because CA was heading in this direction, making it untenable for individual landlords) leaving only corporate landlords in the space.
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K Frame

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2024, 09:02:02 AM »
Well the obvious solution is to nationalize all rentals.

Government can do it better!
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zahc

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2024, 09:41:44 AM »
Permanently taxing productive people to give that money to unproductive people is preposterous.

You are correct of course. Which is why UBI (before it was called UBI; George called it a "citizen's dividend and hayek simply called it a tax refund) is supposed to be paid for out of economic rents and not income, sales or other taxes.

Also UBI is supposed to go to everyone, that's what the"U" means. Even if you are the world's most productive millionaire, you still get the UBI. This is why UBI will always be favored by economists over means-tested welfare schemes, not only the adverse selection problem you pointed out but also the perverse incentives created by welfare income "cliffs". It's almost like all of our welfare schemes are deliberately engineered to oppress and entrap the poor rather than empower and improve mobility. Curious eh?
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zahc

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2024, 09:59:06 AM »
I'm confused about what you mean by "taxing rent".

My rental income is most definitely taxed.  Are you talking about adding more taxes to that income?

Most of your "rental" income is probably return on capital and labor and shouldn't be taxed at all if there were any justice in the world.

Economic rent is extraction of wealth from productive enterprise and labor towards non-productive non-enterprise. Money earned by providing a service, providing capital, or providing goods is productive enterprise. Money paid for a privilege of doing the above, basically paid to some gatekeeper because of some monopoly artificially granted by the government (patent fees, quotas, compliance regulations, exclusivity rights), is rent. In other words, productive enterprise produces and contributes to the economy, rentiers make money by monopolizing something and withholding it FROM the economy in a type of ransom, and thus they extract wealth from the productive economy exactly like taxes do. Eliminating the rent is 100% benefit to everyone in society except the rentseeker (and justifiably even benefits the rentseeker in the long run). In advanced economies the velocity of rent seeking accelerates and outpaces the velocity of productive enterprise to the point of drowning the economy, and the impact of rent surpasses easily the impact of government taxes. Furthermore, rent makes cutting taxes pointless because rent collects anything the government doesn't. If you work for an honest living and wondered why you can't get ahead this is the actual reason. This is not widely understood because most economics are not widely understood. As Charlie Brown said, they aren't going to give you information that will help you overthrow them.

Collection of economic rent should be discouraged or criminal depending on your disposition. Economists universally agree it should be discouraged, just like petty theft, because it harms the economy. Anyone with any moral sense agrees it should be illegal regardless, economic damage notwithstanding.
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HankB

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2024, 10:39:48 AM »
. . . That was built primarily on successive Greek governments, both left and right, essentially creating very expensive programs of give aways, not as a means of creating a better Greece, but as a means of cementing their power bases.

Yeah, that worked out great for everyone when the government froze bank accounts and then scalped, IIRC, 10 to 20% of every individual's account holdings as a means of propping up the government.

Hey, you had 10,000 drachmas in your bank account? Congratulations on being a successful saver! You now have 8,000 drachmas! . . .
Except for two groups of people - Greek government officials who got their money OUT of Greece beforehand into other EU banks, (easy with the EU banking system), and smart people who discovered that when the Greek government froze accounts and shut down Greek banks, the freeze/shutdown didn't apply to branches in other countries. So a lot of Greeks logged into the branches of Greek banks in the U.K. and transferred their money ahead of the haircut.

Well the obvious solution is to nationalize all rentals.

Government can do it better!
Yes, public housing in Chicago - places like Stateway Gardens, Cabrini-Green, and others - are noted for their safe and family friendly atmosphere.

. . . Money paid for a privilege of doing the above, basically paid to some gatekeeper because of some monopoly artificially granted by the government (patent fees, . . .

Collection of economic rent should be discouraged or criminal depending on your disposition. Economists universally agree it should be discouraged, just like petty theft, because it harms the economy. Anyone with any moral sense agrees it should be illegal regardless, economic damage notwithstanding.
Disagree on patent fees. Patents are a way of encouraging innovation by granting exclusive rights to make/market an invention to the inventor. But these exclusive rights only run for a limited amount of time, after which everyone is free to use that innovation. Over time, society as a whole benefits. Collecting fees from prospective patentees helps reduce frivolous filings and pay for the patent office. The patent system is far from perfect. But overall it's beneficial despite its shortcomings.
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MechAg94

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2024, 01:54:40 PM »
You are correct of course. Which is why UBI (before it was called UBI; George called it a "citizen's dividend and hayek simply called it a tax refund) is supposed to be paid for out of economic rents and not income, sales or other taxes.

Also UBI is supposed to go to everyone, that's what the"U" means. Even if you are the world's most productive millionaire, you still get the UBI. This is why UBI will always be favored by economists over means-tested welfare schemes, not only the adverse selection problem you pointed out but also the perverse incentives created by welfare income "cliffs". It's almost like all of our welfare schemes are deliberately engineered to oppress and entrap the poor rather than empower and improve mobility. Curious eh?
The problem is this is not a zero sum game on money and its value.  All that will accomplish is inflation and disruption of the labor market.  Similar to the problems increasing min wage causes. 
Min wage has not increased in Texas, but places like Buc-ees and Chic-fil-a generally pay more to keep the best people around longer.  Places like McDonalds apparently don't. 

Yes, welfare and other schemes are detrimental to the poor, but alternative schemes like this one will be used the same way.  The programs will be manipulated.  It is far, far better to simply keep the government out of it rather than give them power to tax and regulate more stuff.
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MechAg94

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2024, 01:56:33 PM »
Most of your "rental" income is probably return on capital and labor and shouldn't be taxed at all if there were any justice in the world.

Economic rent is extraction of wealth from productive enterprise and labor towards non-productive non-enterprise. Money earned by providing a service, providing capital, or providing goods is productive enterprise. Money paid for a privilege of doing the above, basically paid to some gatekeeper because of some monopoly artificially granted by the government (patent fees, quotas, compliance regulations, exclusivity rights), is rent. In other words, productive enterprise produces and contributes to the economy, rentiers make money by monopolizing something and withholding it FROM the economy in a type of ransom, and thus they extract wealth from the productive economy exactly like taxes do. Eliminating the rent is 100% benefit to everyone in society except the rentseeker (and justifiably even benefits the rentseeker in the long run). In advanced economies the velocity of rent seeking accelerates and outpaces the velocity of productive enterprise to the point of drowning the economy, and the impact of rent surpasses easily the impact of government taxes. Furthermore, rent makes cutting taxes pointless because rent collects anything the government doesn't. If you work for an honest living and wondered why you can't get ahead this is the actual reason. This is not widely understood because most economics are not widely understood. As Charlie Brown said, they aren't going to give you information that will help you overthrow them.

Collection of economic rent should be discouraged or criminal depending on your disposition. Economists universally agree it should be discouraged, just like petty theft, because it harms the economy. Anyone with any moral sense agrees it should be illegal regardless, economic damage notwithstanding.

Do you think that sort of definition would make it into a taxing bill in Congress without being manipulated?  Then avoid more manipulation after the fact? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

dogmush

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2024, 02:33:48 PM »
About the only "UBI" that I'm going to be convinced by is something like how AK does their Permanent Fund Dividend.

Which, roughly, is dividend payments on a mutual fund that is funded by the payments from leases for oil drilling and pipelines run on state owned land.  That is, assets owned by the public, that make money, that money can be distributed to the public.

In practice it's worth noting that the AK PFD does not run perfectly, the legislature tries to raid the fund constantly, and it's not enough to live on in any fashion.  But at least in theory it's not automatically evil or stupid.

I'd want to read up on zahc's "economic rent" a little more, but I'm not sure it stands up to scrutiny at the level of his paragraph though.  Patent Fees, for example, he lists as "rent" when it's a payment to the patent holder for use of their labor. They did the labor to come up with a new idea, and you'd like to use that idea without doing the labor, then you should recompense the person who did the labor.  Or at least it could be persuasively argued that way.  I haven't read Atlas Shrugged in a while, so I might need to brush up on the producer arguments.   =D

Compliance regulations is a .gov thing.  I'm not dure how taxing what is effectively already a tax funds UBI, I'd need to have that explained.

Quotas, in this context, I'm not sure what he means.  like when the .gov pays farmers not to grow things to "manage" the market?  Or like DeBeer's limiting diamonds added to the market?

If nothing else, the line I quoted before is exactly the kind of thing every economic snake oil salesman pitches.  "You are working an "honest living".  It's the Other Factors holding you back!! Come, read my pamphlet!"  Not saying that's what zahc is doing here, but that's the vibe.

If you work for an honest living and wondered why you can't get ahead this is the actual reason. This is not widely understood because most economics are not widely understood.

Pb

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2024, 08:55:32 PM »
Ok, so exactly what is a "tax on rents" specially?

Henry George advocated a single tax on land, regardless of improvements to the land, if I recall.  I actually once lived in a town that originated as a single tax colony.

Bogie

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2024, 07:10:59 AM »
At this point, invention isn't worth it.
 
I make a new gizmo. I sell a million units in the first month.
 
China ramps up production, and undercuts on price/quality, but nobody cares about quality... I sell a thousand in the second month, but have to hire lawyers to defend my patent. The Chinese change the names of the import companies weekly...
 
I sell the tooling for pennies on the dollar.
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zahc

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2024, 07:39:04 AM »
About the only "UBI" that I'm going to be convinced by is something like how AK does their Permanent Fund Dividend.

Alaska Permanent Fund is brilliant policy. One wonders how they got it through, if all the conspiracy and doomer theories are to be believed.

Texas has glimmers of intelligence in their tax policies actually, they just don't lean into them enough. But there's there's a glimmer of intelligence lurking under the surface.
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HankB

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2024, 07:43:51 AM »
At this point, invention isn't worth it.
 
I make a new gizmo. I sell a million units in the first month.
 
China ramps up production, and undercuts on price/quality, but nobody cares about quality... I sell a thousand in the second month, but have to hire lawyers to defend my patent. The Chinese change the names of the import companies weekly...
 
I sell the tooling for pennies on the dollar.
I worked my career for a very large multinational company and saw first hand some Chinese business practices. Your post, if anything, understates the perfidy of the Chinese in regard to patents and intellectual property - with the Chicom government being the heart of the problem.
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zahc

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2024, 07:57:36 AM »
Quote
Patent Fees, for example, he lists as "rent"

A textbook example. Patents are express purpose of allowing inventors to charge rent for their ideas and inventions. A patent withhold ideas from the market unless people pay the patent holder for the privilege of using it.

The patent system has been almost completely corrupted in modern times. The Constitution says Congress has authority to grant patents

--to further the progress of the useful arts
--for a limited time
--to their respective inventors

It's very debatable whether patents in their modern form promote progress. They almost certainly do more to hamper progress because you cannot do anything without being raped by patent trolls nowadays, or just big firms with swarms of patent lawyers.

Also the idea that it's the original inventors that benefit is laughable. We have a billions-dollar market in patent trolls who snap up portfolios of patents for pennies and use them to extract bribes from companies in exchange for not being harassed in court. 100% textbook rentierism.

At least there's a limited time still, but for tech patents, to actually promote progress in the useful arts, it should be more like 2 years and not 20.

Founders were generally smart people and if they can be blamed for enshrining patents, they can be credited with recognizing they are dangerous and encoding limitations. But the only limitation that's still intact is the limited time, and even that is outdated.

Quote
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« Last Edit: August 05, 2024, 08:19:27 AM by zahc »
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zahc

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2024, 08:38:55 AM »
Quote
Quotas, in this context, I'm not sure what he means

Quotas would be things like carbon credits or taxi medallions that you have to get from the government in order to do business. I.e. something that restrains or withholds the market until a fee is paid. A distinction could be made between wholly artificial quotas and quotas implemented to protect limited resources like timber or fish harvests, but that's more a question whether the quota is legitimate or not; either way, the economic impact is the same. The money paid for the quota is rent and is often set by bidding between those who want access, not set by competition between "providers". This is another way to distinguish rent. Can competing providers enter the market and drive down prices? If not, you have a monopoly, natural or artificial.

A communist/socialist economy denies the existence monopolies because the government commands the whole economy anyway, so basically the entire economy is garbage.

One approach to monopoly, and an ancient one, is rent control, or capping rent, as well as limiting the duration of leases. This is effectively the system used by ancient Israel and described in Deuteronomy. As long as the resource in play is monopoly instrument (a critical point), this will benefit the economy by preventing a destructive rent spiral, but depending on the extent of the rent control, often results in the limited resource not being allocated efficiently as it would otherwise be, because once the bidding among buyers reaches the cap, the market force once again basically disappears, everyone/anyone can buy it for the price cap, so once again you are down to corruption or some kind of lottery to allocate the resource.

Yet another middle approach is to allow unlimited bidding, but ban resale and require the bidder be the one to use the resource. This is similar to many land policies in the European middle ages. This has problems of liquidity, and there's no guarantee they will use it efficiently, but in the long run, the idea is nobody will be able to afford to waste it too bad.

The Georgist approach to monopoly is fully harness market forces to let the market bid for the scarce resource to the limit, and also allow unlimited resale like any other good. This ensures access, liquidity, and efficient allocation, especially critical for resources that are truly limited like electromagnetic spectrum or water rights. The government does not bury its head in the sand and deny existence of rent or try to make go away, it acknowledges that rent exists and it technically good because it results from economic activity, but to prevent the rent spiral and speculation that would otherwise occur, the government taxes the rent generated at a fixed %  of its market value (critical point) and returns it to the economy as a flat head tax, like the Alaska Permanent Fund. If the tax is high enough, it will be unprofitable to hold the resource for speculation and also cheap to acquire the resource for anyone who wants to use it effectively. This revenue is capable of fully funding the government in accordance with Ricardo's law of rent and the Henry George Theorem, so you provably do not need any other form of taxes, unless you want to levy sin taxes on harmful externalities, which is really the same thing in slightly different form. It's also extremely private, cannot be dodged or moved overseas, and requires no bureaucracy to administer.

Thomas Paine proposed paying every English citizen 15 pounds per year from land taxes in 1794 to alleviate poverty. Done properly, there is net benefit to wages, net benefit to resource allocation, and net BENEFIT on the public treasury. Trying to do the same from taxes on productive enterprise does the opposite and depresses real wages, harms resource allocation and kills the public treasury, which should be obvious...the idea of taxing labor then giving the proceeds back to labor absurd. But people just don't understand economic concepts, and that's very much by design.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2024, 09:18:23 AM by zahc »
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2024, 12:09:01 PM »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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