Author Topic: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government  (Read 1473 times)

Ben

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Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« on: November 14, 2023, 09:23:39 AM »
The UK has ordered a baby to be taken off life support despite the contrary wishes of the parents.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/uk-infant-baptized-forced-life-support-father-devil-courtroom

Just for clarity regarding my own viewpoint, my trust has very strict "pull the damn plug already!" orders in it as I don't want to linger on a machine.

This child's parents, however, had hope for a medical solution if not now, then in the future. I know that Britain has pulled the plug on children before, but in this case, the Italian government had stepped up and said that they would make the child an Italian citizen and take responsibility for her care at Vatican medical facilities in Rome.

I'm not sure what British law, or what thoughts the judge was thinking, that would not simply have them say, "okay then", and let the child go to Italy. This just seems wrong, regardless of your views regarding artificial life support.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

MechAg94

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Re: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2023, 09:40:40 AM »
...but "death panels" don't exist.  That is just scare tactics. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

dogmush

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Re: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2023, 09:54:27 AM »


This child's parents, however, had hope for a medical solution if not now, then in the future. I know that Britain has pulled the plug on children before, but in this case, the Italian government had stepped up and said that they would make the child an Italian citizen and take responsibility for her care at Vatican medical facilities in Rome.

I'm not sure what British law, or what thoughts the judge was thinking, that would not simply have them say, "okay then", and let the child go to Italy. This just seems wrong, regardless of your views regarding artificial life support.

I had to read through several articles to find some comments on what the Judge was thinking and answer that question.

Per quotes in The Guardian and BBC The battle was that the specialists in mitochondrial disease were saying that she was dying, had brain damage, and most importantly that the treatments being used were causeing her pain.  The parent's disagreeed.  So the courts were convinced that moving to Italy and further treatment were not in the baby's best interests because they were both futile and painful, and she would be suffering a protracted suffering death.

I honestly don't know enough about mitochondrial disease to have an informed opinion on this.  Big government and centralized health care demonstrably DO have "death panels" and remove care earlier than might otherwise be done, as well as ration care.  On the other side, some parents also demonstrably do make decisions that harm or cause pain to kids for their own reasons, even with good intentions.


It's not remotely the same thing, but one of my cats is currently in the process of dying slowly, and the wife and I routinely look at him, watch for suffering, and try to make a judgment call about if he's happy, or suffering, and if it's time or not.  Considering the emotional toll that takes for a cat, I can't imagine someone being clear-eyed about that with their child.

Either way, it's tragic this kid got this desease, and I hope she found some measure of peace in what comes next.

Ben

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Re: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2023, 10:43:56 AM »

I honestly don't know enough about mitochondrial disease to have an informed opinion on this.  Big government and centralized health care demonstrably DO have "death panels" and remove care earlier than might otherwise be done, as well as ration care.  On the other side, some parents also demonstrably do make decisions that harm or cause pain to kids for their own reasons, even with good intentions.

No doubt about the bolded, with no blame to parents, as it's a horrible decision. In this particular case, my interest was in the fact that the Italian government stepped up to provide what I presume to be high level health care. This seems a case of medical experts vs medical experts, instead of medical experts vs parents.

Also, if the child had become an Italian citizen prior to the decision (it appears she hadn't), that would add an extra twist to this, with the Brits making a decision for the citizen of a foreign government.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

dogmush

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Re: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2023, 10:50:45 AM »
No doubt about the bolded, with no blame to parents, as it's a horrible decision. In this particular case, my interest was in the fact that the Italian government stepped up to provide what I presume to be high level health care. This seems a case of medical experts vs medical experts, instead of medical experts vs parents.

Also, if the child had become an Italian citizen prior to the decision (it appears she hadn't), that would add an extra twist to this, with the Brits making a decision for the citizen of a foreign government.

Actually the Guardian article said she had received "Emergency Italian Citizenship" last week, so that twist is there.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/13/indi-gregory-baby-girl-at-centre-of-legal-battle-dies-after-life-support-removed

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2023, 11:20:36 AM »
This is what happens when the government provides your healthcare. They also decide how much and IF you get healthcare.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2023, 07:56:39 PM »
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

JTHunter

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Re: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2023, 10:22:04 PM »
This is what happens when the government provides your healthcare. They also decide how much and IF you get healthcare.

My mother lost a WW2 "pen pal" to colon cancer because the British NHS kept putting this lady off, claiming it was a variety of other causes, including "psychosomatic" instead of actually doing a colonoscopy.  My Mom even offered to fly her friend over to the states for another exam but the lady declined, trusting the NHS.

Never trust the government.
  :facepalm:
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2023, 10:57:28 PM »
I had to read through several articles to find some comments on what the Judge was thinking and answer that question.

Per quotes in The Guardian and BBC The battle was that the specialists in mitochondrial disease were saying that she was dying, had brain damage, and most importantly that the treatments being used were causeing her pain.  The parent's disagreeed.  So the courts were convinced that moving to Italy and further treatment were not in the baby's best interests because they were both futile and painful, and she would be suffering a protracted suffering death.

I honestly don't know enough about mitochondrial disease to have an informed opinion on this. Big government and centralized health care demonstrably DO have "death panels" and remove care earlier than might otherwise be done, as well as ration care.  On the other side, some parents also demonstrably do make decisions that harm or cause pain to kids for their own reasons, even with good intentions.


It's not remotely the same thing, but one of my cats is currently in the process of dying slowly, and the wife and I routinely look at him, watch for suffering, and try to make a judgment call about if he's happy, or suffering, and if it's time or not.  Considering the emotional toll that takes for a cat, I can't imagine someone being clear-eyed about that with their child.

Either way, it's tragic this kid got this desease, and I hope she found some measure of peace in what comes next.

I don't think knowledge of mitochondrial disease is necessary to have an opinion on this. I don't think courts should usurp the role of parents except in cases when the parents have been proven to be unfit parents. It is the role, the duty, and the right of parents to make decisions about medical treatments their children receive. The judge can give all the excuses and rationalizations in the world (along with the doctors) but, in the end, I believe it came down to the National Health Service didn't want to keep paying. Why they weren't willing to allow the patient to be transferred to Italy is beyond comprehension.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2023, 02:31:16 PM by Hawkmoon »
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cordex

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Re: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2023, 05:42:45 AM »
Why they weren't willing to allow the patient to be transferred to Italy is beyond comprehension.
1. It would have been tantamount to an admission that their life and death decision could be wrong.
2. Unlikely as it may be, how would they look if the child miraculously recovered?

dogmush

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Re: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2023, 08:09:54 AM »
I don't think knowledge of mitochondrial disease is necessary to have an opinion on this. I don't think courts should usurp the role of parents except in cases when the parents have been proven to be unfit parents. It is the role, the duty, and the right to make decisions about medical treatments their children receive. The judge can give all the excuses and rationalizations in the world (along with the doctors) but, in the end, I believe it came down to the National Health Service didn't want to keep paying. Why they weren't willing to allow the patient to be transferred to Italy is beyond comprehension.

In what way is it beyond comprehension?  The British Government and NHS explicitly stated why.  They believed that further care was futile, AND the treatment was actively painful to the child.  They were unwilling to let the parents and Italy torture and abuse the child to slake their own grief.

Now, whether that is a correct opinion or not is another question, and as I said, one I'm not qualified to answer, but the logic is pretty straightforward.  Governments all over, including ours, will prevent parents from doing things the parents believe the kids need if the governments feel it is not in the child's best interest.

Do I like NHS? No.
Do I find it plausible that NHS denied care and then got caught up in bureaucratic face saving rather than allow experimental treatments?  Yes.
Do I also find it plausible that Parents wrapped up in the grief of loosing a child might grasp at straws and lock the kid into a futile, painful life with no chance of recovery rather than face the inevitable?  Also Yes.

So which is it?  Brain damaged kid being tortured with futile, experimental treatment, or big.gov sacrificing babies at the alter of budgetary restrictions?  THAT's why I said I didn't know enough about the disease to have an informed opinion here, because both side's arguments are plausible.

Boomhauer

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Re: Seems Like This Should be Murder by Government
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2023, 07:58:31 AM »
We’ve forgotten Baby Alfie already? The British government did the exact same thing then even with the Italian government making the same offer. The Brits seem to get their rocks off making damn sure kids die by order of the state.

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