Immigration Bill proposed

[MattC]

From CNN

Highlights:

The draft immigration legislation is the first stab by the White House and Republican senators this year at addressing the presence of 11 million to 12 million illegal immigrants living and working in the country and employers' reliance on illegal workers.
...
The undocumented workers would have legal status with the visas, but to get a green card, making them legal permanent residents, they would have to return to their home country, apply at a U.S. embassy or consulate to re-enter legally and pay a $10,000 fine.

The plan also tries to make border security a priority by requiring 18,300 Border Patrol agents and 370 miles of physical fencing be in place, as well as electronic monitoring of the southern border ongoing before a temporary worker program could start.

The plan is far more conservative than the one the Senate approved last year with bipartisan backing and support from President Bush. That plan, whose principal architects were Sens. John McCain, R-Arizona, and Edward M. Kennedy, D-Massachusetts, allowed illegal immigrants to stay in the U.S., work and apply to become legal residents after learning English, paying fines and back taxes and clearing a background check.

Critics dismissed that bill as an amnesty.
...
A House bill introduced last week by Reps. Luis Gutierrez, D-Illinois, and Jeff Flake, R-Arizona, also attempts to appeal to conservatives.

It provides six-year work visas to undocumented immigrants and requires them at some point during that period to exit the country and re-enter using their work visa.

I do not know what to make of this.  It doesn't seem, to me, that larger fences and expensive visas will squash illegal immigration.  But at least it is not a blanket amnesty, and it increases the penalties for people hiring illegal immigrants.

Will someone with a better understanding of this weigh in?

[Sindawe]

More pabulum in an attempt to quell both sides in this issue, which will satisfy neither (it certainly don't make ME happy).  It will be seen as ANOTHER amnesty by the the illegal aliens, drawing MORE here.  If passed, the law will not be enforced and the fence will not be built

[CAnnoneer]

Any form of amnesty will only encourage more law-breaking and more illegal aliens sneaking in. By the time Joe Average finally realizes how he is shafted by the unholy union of big business, globalist leftists, and naive pious morons, it will be too late, again.

[Manedwolf]

If they already do identity theft "because they want to work", I suspect this just means that those whose identity is stolen will have to deal with $10,000 charges on their credit cards as well.

That, or car thefts will suddenly spike in SoCal and other areas, since chopshops and out-of-country-in-a-cargobox smugglers tend to pay per car delivered. Drug dealings would likely go up as well.

You can't deal with willing lawbreakers by asking them for money, or they're more likely to just steal the money.

[Waitone]

Last year's senate bill was fortunate in that statists of all kinds insist on laying out their plans long is advance of actual implementation.  Last year's senate bill had just a few provisions:  complete amnesty for those already here, decriminalization of identity theft, and no hindering for future border crossing.  In short the senate advocated the US simply drop any pretense of borders, national sovereignty, or the rule of law.

Shift to this year and we see that same senate grow some smarts and figure out they can't be as in-your-face about the legislation as it was last year, hence the need for a "more conservative" approach.  The senate's original operating assumptions has not changed.  The trick is to find those provision of law which support the original provisions. 

We can look forward to lying, deceit, skulduggery, etc.  The ruling elite wants the US and Canada and Mexico "merged" for one simple reason.  The consequences of our fiscal irresponsibility for the past decades  are about to be felt.  We are facing wave after wave of gargantuan economic problems caused things like social security, medicaid, etc.  Add to it the high probability of a general eastern war and a subsequent shut off of oil to the west and you've got the perfect financial cataclysm.  The ruling elite is desperate for more payment into the SS "trust fund" and access to oil.  Mexico and Canada provide both hence the need for "close economic cooperation". 

[The Rabbi]

The only solution is to round them all up, shoot every 10th one on the spot, send the rest to Mexico (regardless of where they actually came from) and then nuke Mexico until it's a parking lot.  The only way.

[Sindawe]

Oh come on Rabbi, you should know your history better than that.  If we Americans are gonna decimate the illegals, we need to round them up, make the nine out of ten beat the tenth to death THEN ship them back to Mexico.

Close the freaking border to all but legal traffic, make the rest a free-fire zone for our military to practice their arts and science.  Deny ANY benifits other than life saving emergency care to any but our citizens and our LEGAL immigrants/visitors.  Businesses that hire illegals have ALL assests seized.  Fiscal assets are divided among legal employees as compensation/severance.  Physical assets are publicly crushed to ruble and landfilled.  IP assets are cast into the public domain as open source.  Corporate officers of said businesses get to live in the stocks for 30 days unguarded.

[The Rabbi]

What, no tar and feathering?  No public pillories?  I'm surprised at your softness on illegal immigration, Sindawe.  I thought you were a law and order man.

[Sindawe]

Well if you WANT public pillories Rabbi I'm game for that as well, but being of the benevolent sort I though I'd at least gift the guilty with the CHANCE to fend off missiles and protect the head.

But if you're so bloodthirsty, I can accommodate ya...

[Car Knocker]

Crucifixion as a means of border control would seem to be a creative option.

[CAnnoneer]

A major difference between us and Mexico is the rule of law. When that is compromised, do not be surprised to wake up one day in your own urban soz-eco-disaster toilet, where your rights and health are directly proportional to the bribes you can afford to pay. By that time, it will be very late to swerve away from irrationality, exaggerations, faux humanitarianism, stupid greed, and other failures of the mind.

[The Rabbi]

A major difference between us and Mexico is the rule of law. When that is compromised, do not be surprised to wake up one day in your own urban soz-eco-disaster toilet, where your rights and health are directly proportional to the bribes you can afford to pay. By that time, it will be very late to swerve away from irrationality, exaggerations, faux humanitarianism, stupid greed, and other failures of the mind.

Nuke Mexico now!  Do it for the children!

[CAnnoneer]

Nuke Mexico now!  Do it for the children!

We have yet to see something workable coming from you on this issue.

[The Rabbi]

Nuke Mexico now!  Do it for the children!

We have yet to see something workable coming from you on this issue.

I hope that was addressed to yourself.  I've proposed a bunch of stuff that is entirely workable, more workable than the nativist-ranting-kneejerk-anti-immigrant crap I keep reading.  "Shut down the border"--gimme a break.

[CAnnoneer]

I've proposed a bunch of stuff that is entirely workable...  "Shut down the border"--gimme a break.

Hehehehe. Exactly what kind of a set of policies would succeed if it does not include border control?

[Sindawe]

I've proposed a bunch of stuff that is entirely workable, more workable than the nativist-ranting-kneejerk-anti-immigrant crap I keep reading.  "Shut down the border"--gimme a break.

Since the rest of here at APS don't have insight into your memory, please be gracious enough to mention some of those threads?  I did a search for your posts that mention immigration and I did not find ONE proposal.  Lots of nay-saying about ideas other put forth like fences, prosecuting employers who hire illegals and finger pointing at the workers who've been adversely effected by those illegals, but no proposals of your own to address the situation.

You made the claim, time to own up and support it.

[The Rabbi]

Look harder.  I'm not here to do your work for you.  And I am not about to engage in yet another stupid fruitless debate.  Everyone's mind is made up about this one.

[Manedwolf]

Look harder.  I'm not here to do your work for you.  And I am not about to engage in yet another stupid fruitless debate.  Everyone's mind is made up about this one.

I've looked, too, and I can't find any solutions you've proposed, really. Naysaying other people's proposals and calling them "kneejerk reactionaries" for wanting something so crazy as real national borders, yes.

[Sindawe]

In this thread The Rabbi stated...

There is an easy solution. Open immigration.

Later in the same thread....

An easy solution is to abolish the INS and immigration laws.  Then all those people will be here legally.

Oh, THERE it is.  Silly me, here I was looking for an actual proposal from you that was NOT surrender of the country to criminal invaders.

[Perd Hapley]

Can we all just agree that we hate Mexicans and want to kill them all?  Except for Rabbi, of course.  He is a great humanitarian. 

I've proposed a bunch of stuff that is entirely workable, more workable than the nativist-ranting-kneejerk-anti-immigrant crap I keep reading. 

Just don't call us cowards. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

An easy solution is to abolish the INS and immigration laws.  Then all those people will be here legally.

Oh, THERE it is.  Silly me, here I was looking for an actual proposal from you that was NOT surrender of the country to criminal invaders.

Apparently you don't get it.  Change the laws and the "invaders" cease to be criminal.  If the problem is that they're breaking the law by being here, the simple and obvious solution is to eliminate the law.

Most of the reactionary anti-immigration folks insist that he problem is that immigrants are violating our law.  But that's really just a red herring, easily identified by proposing that we amend the law to make illegal immigrants legal.  The truth is that the reactionaries don't like having Mexicans here in the good ol' US of A.  It's easy enough to illustrate.  Rabbi did it last time we held this pointless arguement, and folks fell for it then just as readily as y'all did today. 

If y'all want to discuss something useful, quit whimpering about foreigners who are too smart to obey our stupid immigration laws.  Let's have a discussion about the merits of having a supply of unskilled laborers, and about whether or not we need to import them from foreign countries.  Let's discuss real problems caused by Mexican illegals living here (and I don't mean arbitrary violations of stupid laws), and whether or not the best solution to those problems is to institute a "War on Immigration" to go along with our wildly successful War on Drugs and War on Poverty.

[CAnnoneer]

Open borders?? I wonder what will happen to the Rabbi when the other 6 billion people on this planet decide to immigrate into the US and live down the street of him... He'd better be ready to "share". Har-har-har-har... ROTFLMAO

Man, that's so ridiculous I have been laughing out loud for several minutes now. That solution is up there with "Let them eat pastries." But, no, it is my fault - I honestly believed this time we'd get something meaningful. Silly me. LOL.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I've proposed a bunch of stuff that is entirely workable, more workable than the nativist-ranting-kneejerk-anti-immigrant crap I keep reading. 

Just don't call us cowards. 

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Open borders?? I wonder what will happen to the Rabbi when the other 6 billion people on this planet decide to immigrate into the US and live down the street of him... He'd better be ready to "share". Har-har-har-har... ROTFLMAO

Man, that's so ridiculous I have been laughing out loud for several minutes now. That solution is up there with "Let them eat pastries."

Care to provide any substance to back up your "ridiculous" assertion? 

[De Selby]

I guess "free market" isn't an American ideal anymore.

The only remotely realistic solution to the immigration problems is Real ID.  A national licensing system for the right to work, that is easy and fast to verify.  Anything else is a waste of money, like a 2000 mile fence or swelling yet another Federal Agency to titanic proportions.  

Deprive people of the economic incentive, and they won't come.  But you can't do that without a de facto Real ID, and I've seen how popular national identification is on these boards....